Sanctification
- Thread starter MikkoAinasoja
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K
That part I bolded and underlined is why I do not listen to your interpretation and opinion of scripture because you still say as a result of salvation.
They are the result of a true faith in Jesus, not salvation, as salvation is a gift that is given by the Lord after one has kept the faith in Him. We do not physically possess eternal life right now, for that salvation that abides in us now is of the Holy Spirit !!!
When we physically receive eternal life is at the day of redemption, as the scriptures clearly say it is reserved in heaven for us.
They are the result of a true faith in Jesus, not salvation, as salvation is a gift that is given by the Lord after one has kept the faith in Him. We do not physically possess eternal life right now, for that salvation that abides in us now is of the Holy Spirit !!!
When we physically receive eternal life is at the day of redemption, as the scriptures clearly say it is reserved in heaven for us.
Um... you are the one who is "perceiving" anger... the comment and questions are a legitimate QUERY to your previous comments. You can apologize all you want... but since I have been neither angry nor offended... seems mute. There is NO ATTACK... unless of course that is how you perceive any/all question or comment directed to you which for <whatever> any reason <you perceive> doesn't give you warm fuzzies?
So I thanks for the presumptive and deflective... NON ANSWER.... and no further response regarding the ENTIRE matter is absolutely fine with me.
So I thanks for the presumptive and deflective... NON ANSWER.... and no further response regarding the ENTIRE matter is absolutely fine with me.
I'M NOT ANGRY!!!!
I HAVE NOTHING BUT LOVE AND ADORATION FOR YOU!!!!
IF EVERYONE WAS AS LOVING AND GENTLE AS I AM THERE'D BE NO WAR OR CONFLICT!!!!
I HATE . . . I MEAN, I LOVE EVERYONE!!!!
Yeah, okay.
B
Your words read as follows:
I'M NOT ANGRY!!!!
I HAVE NOTHING BUT LOVE AND ADORATION FOR YOU!!!!
IF EVERYONE WAS AS LOVING AND GENTLE AS I AM THERE'D BE NO WAR OR CONFLICT!!!!
I HATE . . . I MEAN, I LOVE EVERYONE!!!!
Yeah, okay.
I'M NOT ANGRY!!!!
I HAVE NOTHING BUT LOVE AND ADORATION FOR YOU!!!!
IF EVERYONE WAS AS LOVING AND GENTLE AS I AM THERE'D BE NO WAR OR CONFLICT!!!!
I HATE . . . I MEAN, I LOVE EVERYONE!!!!
Yeah, okay.
The bible also says
1st John 3:3
king James version(KJV)
3.)And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.<-----How would you harmonize this verse with
john 15:2-4
king James version(KJV)
2.)Every branch in me that beareth, not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3.)Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4.)Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
++++++++++++
I think this is talking about those that are saved and those that are not saved.
I would say that Before you could bear fruit GOD would have to do a work in you, born again.
1st John 3:3
king James version(KJV)
3.)And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.<-----How would you harmonize this verse with
john 15:2-4
king James version(KJV)
2.)Every branch in me that beareth, not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3.)Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4.)Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
++++++++++++
I think this is talking about those that are saved and those that are not saved.
I would say that Before you could bear fruit GOD would have to do a work in you, born again.
V
That's the full Gospel. There is nothing to add, and there is no "snipping." That's what you've done here:
You ignore Jesus' words found elsewhere. You take two verses out of the 300+ that quote Christ and try to make them negate all the others. That is deceptive, heretical, and a bold-faced lie.
Since the beginning of time when the first man sinned, mankind has been under the condemnation of God.
Because everyone breaks God’s perfect law by committing sin.
Everyone is guilty.
The punishment for the crime of sin is physical death.
Note that "free gift" is the Greek carisma (charisma), "grace." You accuse those who accept God's amazing grace of making it cheap, disparaging the word "free" but that is exactly what it is, free. It is the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ -- not you, CHRIST! -- laid hold of by faith, and only faith!
Obviously, not having faith in Christ leads not to eternal life, but eternal separation from God in hell.
God, because of His love for the world, has made a way for man to be forgiven for their sins.
Not "believers and does not sin" or "believes and does good works" or "believers and goes to church every time the doors or open and tithes and goes to Africa to preach the Gospel to pygmies." Just, simply, "believes." Everyone knows the word is pisteuo [pisteuo] but most don't stop to think what that word means in the Greek.
It is used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus Christ as able provide salvation through faith by grace, and further that He can aid either in obtaining or in doing something that is within His will. To add anything to that, be it works, "sinless perfection" (and the definition of "believe" should tell you that is an impossibility), or anything else man negates the Gospel with through the addition of false "requirements" as you do.
You prattle on (again) in this post trying desperately to prove your obscene "gospel," claiming sinlessness is a "must," that obedience is a "must." You lie.
You don't believe in Jesus Christ, plainly and simply, Skin. If you did, you would have spiritual discernment. You would realize that nothing you can do will make you "more perfect" because you are dead in sin and your flesh. You have not been enlightened by God, or you wouldn't be trying to give yourself a role in your salvation. You have none because you can't provide anything God wants or needs, including obedience.
When first we come to Christ, we may initially obey out of fear, or out of selfishness, but the key to continued and successful obedience requires that it be done out of love. Suppose things are going so well for us that we are not mindful of God's impending judgment. We are not likely to be motivated by fear. Suppose things are going to so well for us that we don't sense any need for things from God. Then we are not likely to be motivated by selfishness.
Your "obedience" -- and I seriously doubt it is really obedience -- is done out of fear, because you have believed God's judgment, but not God's grace. If you truly understood grace, you would realize that His love overcomes our selfish desires of the flesh, overcomes our fear, and motivates us to love Him and others as much as He loves us.
That is true obedience. It is not done out of necessity, because it truly isn't necessary relative to salvation. Nothing can separate us from God's love once we have truly confessed our sins and admitted that no one but Christ can wipe them away.
You don't believe they have been. You believe you continue to live in sin, and because of that you must "do" in order to compensate for your weakness. You deny Christ's death on the cross cleansed you white as snow.
And because you do, it is nearly certain you are not His, and nothing you are "doing" is worth filthy rags. You must repent, believe, and "do" not to obtain anything from God, but to glorify Him out of love.
You ignore Jesus' words found elsewhere. You take two verses out of the 300+ that quote Christ and try to make them negate all the others. That is deceptive, heretical, and a bold-faced lie.
Since the beginning of time when the first man sinned, mankind has been under the condemnation of God.
Romans 5, NASB
12 Therefore *, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because * all sinned
Because everyone breaks God’s perfect law by committing sin.
Romans 3,
23 all have sined and fall short of the glory of God.
23 all have sined and fall short of the glory of God.
Everyone is guilty.
Romans 5
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
The punishment for the crime of sin is physical death.
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note that "free gift" is the Greek carisma (charisma), "grace." You accuse those who accept God's amazing grace of making it cheap, disparaging the word "free" but that is exactly what it is, free. It is the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ -- not you, CHRIST! -- laid hold of by faith, and only faith!
Obviously, not having faith in Christ leads not to eternal life, but eternal separation from God in hell.
Revelation 20
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
God, because of His love for the world, has made a way for man to be forgiven for their sins.
John 3
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
Not "believers and does not sin" or "believes and does good works" or "believers and goes to church every time the doors or open and tithes and goes to Africa to preach the Gospel to pygmies." Just, simply, "believes." Everyone knows the word is pisteuo [pisteuo] but most don't stop to think what that word means in the Greek.
It is used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus Christ as able provide salvation through faith by grace, and further that He can aid either in obtaining or in doing something that is within His will. To add anything to that, be it works, "sinless perfection" (and the definition of "believe" should tell you that is an impossibility), or anything else man negates the Gospel with through the addition of false "requirements" as you do.
You prattle on (again) in this post trying desperately to prove your obscene "gospel," claiming sinlessness is a "must," that obedience is a "must." You lie.
You don't believe in Jesus Christ, plainly and simply, Skin. If you did, you would have spiritual discernment. You would realize that nothing you can do will make you "more perfect" because you are dead in sin and your flesh. You have not been enlightened by God, or you wouldn't be trying to give yourself a role in your salvation. You have none because you can't provide anything God wants or needs, including obedience.
When first we come to Christ, we may initially obey out of fear, or out of selfishness, but the key to continued and successful obedience requires that it be done out of love. Suppose things are going so well for us that we are not mindful of God's impending judgment. We are not likely to be motivated by fear. Suppose things are going to so well for us that we don't sense any need for things from God. Then we are not likely to be motivated by selfishness.
Your "obedience" -- and I seriously doubt it is really obedience -- is done out of fear, because you have believed God's judgment, but not God's grace. If you truly understood grace, you would realize that His love overcomes our selfish desires of the flesh, overcomes our fear, and motivates us to love Him and others as much as He loves us.
That is true obedience. It is not done out of necessity, because it truly isn't necessary relative to salvation. Nothing can separate us from God's love once we have truly confessed our sins and admitted that no one but Christ can wipe them away.
You don't believe they have been. You believe you continue to live in sin, and because of that you must "do" in order to compensate for your weakness. You deny Christ's death on the cross cleansed you white as snow.
And because you do, it is nearly certain you are not His, and nothing you are "doing" is worth filthy rags. You must repent, believe, and "do" not to obtain anything from God, but to glorify Him out of love.
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K
It is easy to harmonize the two passages as if you see by verse 4 in John 15 it says abide in Him.
When you continue to abide in the Lord as in continue in the faith you will keep yourself free from sin by the fruits of the Spirit, as when you do stumble you will confess that sin for forgiveness (1 John 1:9).
If you fall back to a sin and not repent/confess of it but continue in it then you are no longer abiding in Christ, and 1 John 2-4, James 1:14-16 and chapter 5 are good examples for this.
We keep ourselves clean by the word by continuing to walk as it says to walk, and that is by the fruits of the Spirit.
Paul (Galatians 5:22-26, Romans 8, 13:9-10), Peter (2 Peter 1:5-11), John (1 John 2-4)
When you continue to abide in the Lord as in continue in the faith you will keep yourself free from sin by the fruits of the Spirit, as when you do stumble you will confess that sin for forgiveness (1 John 1:9).
If you fall back to a sin and not repent/confess of it but continue in it then you are no longer abiding in Christ, and 1 John 2-4, James 1:14-16 and chapter 5 are good examples for this.
We keep ourselves clean by the word by continuing to walk as it says to walk, and that is by the fruits of the Spirit.
Paul (Galatians 5:22-26, Romans 8, 13:9-10), Peter (2 Peter 1:5-11), John (1 John 2-4)
You do realize that Mikko was quoting scripture and that, by attempting to correct Mikko, you were attempting to correct the Apostle Paul?
If my memory serves me correct, the Apostle Paul uses "purify yourselves", and similar language, on more than one occassion in scripture. Seeing as you openly disagreed with the Apostie Paul in scripture, I encourage you to research the subject.
You hit the target but you missed the bullseye.
If my memory serves me correct, the Apostle Paul uses "purify yourselves", and similar language, on more than one occassion in scripture. Seeing as you openly disagreed with the Apostie Paul in scripture, I encourage you to research the subject.
You hit the target but you missed the bullseye.
V
No, I was correcting the bad theology. He lifts the phrase kaqarizo eautou (katharizo heautou), translated "cleanse ourselves" in 2 Corinthians 7:1, out of context and tries to make it stand alone as a command. But like most heretical "sinless perfectionists" we deal with, Mikko ignores context, which in this case comes from the last few verses of chapter six.
That puts an entirely different -- and biblical -- light on verse one of chapter seven. Paul isn't speaking of "cleansing yourself of sin" as Mikko implied. That is impossible. Only Christ can do that, and as I said, He's already done it, on the cross.
When you see a "therefore," you'd better find out what it's there for. In chapter seven verse one, Paul uses it in reference to those previous verses, and is speaking of weak Christians walking in the flesh associating with sinners lest they fall into old habits, old playgrounds, and mix with old playmates. He isn't talking about "sinless perfection." He's talking about proper fellowship.
Your memory fails you. That is the only time the phrase occurs in the New Testament that it is not referring to sinners, but saints, and again, context is everything in understanding what Paul said.
As I think anyone can see from this post, I have researched it. I find Mikko's statement sadly wanting, and I wonder why you feel the need to stand up for Mikko. From what I've seen, he's a big boy. He can take care of himself.
2 Corinthians 6, NASB
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17 "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
18 "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
That puts an entirely different -- and biblical -- light on verse one of chapter seven. Paul isn't speaking of "cleansing yourself of sin" as Mikko implied. That is impossible. Only Christ can do that, and as I said, He's already done it, on the cross.
When you see a "therefore," you'd better find out what it's there for. In chapter seven verse one, Paul uses it in reference to those previous verses, and is speaking of weak Christians walking in the flesh associating with sinners lest they fall into old habits, old playgrounds, and mix with old playmates. He isn't talking about "sinless perfection." He's talking about proper fellowship.
Your memory fails you. That is the only time the phrase occurs in the New Testament that it is not referring to sinners, but saints, and again, context is everything in understanding what Paul said.
As I think anyone can see from this post, I have researched it. I find Mikko's statement sadly wanting, and I wonder why you feel the need to stand up for Mikko. From what I've seen, he's a big boy. He can take care of himself.
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I attempted to reason with you but you have just brushed aside every question I asked and have ignored all the points I made.
The free gift is "grace through faith" (a dynamic by which we are quickened) which is the opportunity to be cleansed of our sins and made inwardly pure. Such a gift is not provisional and there is no provision received via some mere "trust" absent of any doing. Faith purifies the heart because faith is an active principle, faith is faithfulness and faithfulness implies a heart that is totally set on God, not upon the lusts of the flesh.
When I referred to...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
... a passage which clearly speaks of the individual having to forsake evil BEFORE the salvation of the soul can take place, you simply ignored it like everyone else who hold to your view of "confess, trust and receive." I understand why you ignore it because it contends for the exact opposite of what you believe, it contends that evil has to be forsaken as we turn to God, we cannot turn to God and still be yielded to wickedness.
The gift of God of eternal life "through" or "in" Jesus Christ is presented in the context of an abiding state. It is a walk, it involves a complete yielding of our heart, it involves a "plugging into God" so to speak and that requires action. Yet this is just meaningless to you because you cannot discuss the subject of "wholehearted yielding to God."
The aspect of yielding our hearts to God completely is not a requirement in the modern Christianity which pervades the world. Obedience to God is rejected and that is why if someone like you is asked, point blank, have you forsaken your rebellion to God and yielded wholeheartedly you have no answer. The answer would be an emphatic no, for if it wasn't, you would have no problem answering.
You, like many others want a forgiveness of sins whilst you still serve wickedness. If such was not the case then you would not be opposed to the forsaking of wickedness as a condition that must be met in order to be forgiven by God.
The free gift is "grace through faith" (a dynamic by which we are quickened) which is the opportunity to be cleansed of our sins and made inwardly pure. Such a gift is not provisional and there is no provision received via some mere "trust" absent of any doing. Faith purifies the heart because faith is an active principle, faith is faithfulness and faithfulness implies a heart that is totally set on God, not upon the lusts of the flesh.
When I referred to...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
... a passage which clearly speaks of the individual having to forsake evil BEFORE the salvation of the soul can take place, you simply ignored it like everyone else who hold to your view of "confess, trust and receive." I understand why you ignore it because it contends for the exact opposite of what you believe, it contends that evil has to be forsaken as we turn to God, we cannot turn to God and still be yielded to wickedness.
The gift of God of eternal life "through" or "in" Jesus Christ is presented in the context of an abiding state. It is a walk, it involves a complete yielding of our heart, it involves a "plugging into God" so to speak and that requires action. Yet this is just meaningless to you because you cannot discuss the subject of "wholehearted yielding to God."
The aspect of yielding our hearts to God completely is not a requirement in the modern Christianity which pervades the world. Obedience to God is rejected and that is why if someone like you is asked, point blank, have you forsaken your rebellion to God and yielded wholeheartedly you have no answer. The answer would be an emphatic no, for if it wasn't, you would have no problem answering.
You, like many others want a forgiveness of sins whilst you still serve wickedness. If such was not the case then you would not be opposed to the forsaking of wickedness as a condition that must be met in order to be forgiven by God.