The passage you provided supports the concept of purgatory rather than negating it. The passage does not state at all whether or not the spirits in prison had never heard of the gospel. I agree with you that this passage supports the concept of the spirits of those that had died given the chance, presumably for salvation.
Second-chance Purgatory?
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I guess you simply don’t see how pugatory runs contradictory to the plain facts of Scripture...where Jesus took our full punishment and paid the full price for our sins fully rescuing us from Judgment. Purgatory is another Gospel, a Gospel of works and those verses I gave are very å propos, as they give warning to those who preach/teach another Gospel.
It’s a complete contradiction also to such Scriptures as this...
John 5:24 NASBS
[24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It’s a complete contradiction also to such Scriptures as this...
John 5:24 NASBS
[24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
It is inconceivable that the spirits of the righteous dead were confined in a prison. Having had their chance while they were alive how is it now so that Jesus felt the need to preach to them and for what purpose? If Jesus preached to them, as so stated in scripture this preaching would be based on the presumption that those that were preached to, whatever it was, were now given the choice on whether to act on it or disregard it.
I agree that purgatory was a cash cow for the Roman Catholic Church but it still does negate the possibility that such a place as purgatory actually exists.
Actually, the bible is not clear at all whether or not salvation is still possible for those that have previously died while not obtaining it. If it was explicitly clear then we would not be having this discussion in the first place. The word used in the bible is 'preach' and not 'proclaim' otherwise the translation would state this word and not the other word. If the words in the modern translations in the bible are vague and unclear in their intent for the average common reader seeking the truth that what is even the point of reading such a book?
I agree that purgatory was a cash cow for the Roman Catholic Church but it still does negate the possibility that such a place as purgatory actually exists.
Actually, the bible is not clear at all whether or not salvation is still possible for those that have previously died while not obtaining it. If it was explicitly clear then we would not be having this discussion in the first place. The word used in the bible is 'preach' and not 'proclaim' otherwise the translation would state this word and not the other word. If the words in the modern translations in the bible are vague and unclear in their intent for the average common reader seeking the truth that what is even the point of reading such a book?
(1) God's Word teaches that your boyfriend is correct about the possibility of salvation apart from formal profession of faith in Christ! The most effective soul winner ever was Billy Graham and he came to accept your boyfriend's perspective later in life. In the church of my youth, my pastor preached a fiery Gospel message every Sunday night and on the longest lasting Gospel TV program in North American history. He, too, came to agree with Billy Graham--and your boyfriend--on the possibility of salvation without accepting Christ. These godly men came to appreciate the decisive significance of Paul's teaching on this question.
Paul teaches: "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to Repent (Acts 17:40)." But to be held accountable for repentance, people need to hear the Gospel and be convicted by the Spirit that it expresses Truth. Otherwise, they can be saved by living up to the limited spiritual light they have received:
"To those [unbelievers] who by patiently doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life (Romans 2:7)."
(2) God's Word teaches that your boyfriend is also correct about Purgatory:
(A) "If the work is burnt up, the builder will suffer loss. but he will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)."
The expression "saved yet so as by fire" is used by the ancient rabbis to describe Jews with mediocre spirituality who must spend time suffering the purifying fires of Gehenna before they are raise up to Heaven. So this verse cannot be reduced to teaching that believers whose works don't stand up to close scrutiny will be saved by the skin of their teeth. Such phrases must be interpreted in terms of what they meant in Palestinian world of Paul's day. This opportunity of purifying suffering may either precede the judgment seat of Christ or be a consequence of it.
(B) Paul teaches that the practice of proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of the process by which God will ultimately "be all in all" or "everything to everyone:" "...so that God may be everything to everyone. Otherwise, what will those people do who have themselves baptized for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)?"
(C) Peter implies that the unsaved dead in Hades hear the Gospel and receive a chance to repent and get saved from out of Hades: "He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison [the wicked dead in Hades], who in former times did not obey (1 Peter 3:19-20). Read the confirmation of this teaching in 1 Peter 4:6.
Such texts could be multiplied and thus they refute a simplistic interpretation of "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)." One must ask what happens after "the judgment." Indeed, consignment to Purgatory or Gehenna is already a divine judgment, but one with a second chance offered.
Paul teaches: "God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to Repent (Acts 17:40)." But to be held accountable for repentance, people need to hear the Gospel and be convicted by the Spirit that it expresses Truth. Otherwise, they can be saved by living up to the limited spiritual light they have received:
"To those [unbelievers] who by patiently doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life (Romans 2:7)."
(2) God's Word teaches that your boyfriend is also correct about Purgatory:
(A) "If the work is burnt up, the builder will suffer loss. but he will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)."
The expression "saved yet so as by fire" is used by the ancient rabbis to describe Jews with mediocre spirituality who must spend time suffering the purifying fires of Gehenna before they are raise up to Heaven. So this verse cannot be reduced to teaching that believers whose works don't stand up to close scrutiny will be saved by the skin of their teeth. Such phrases must be interpreted in terms of what they meant in Palestinian world of Paul's day. This opportunity of purifying suffering may either precede the judgment seat of Christ or be a consequence of it.
(B) Paul teaches that the practice of proxy baptism for the unredeemed dead is part of the process by which God will ultimately "be all in all" or "everything to everyone:" "...so that God may be everything to everyone. Otherwise, what will those people do who have themselves baptized for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)?"
(C) Peter implies that the unsaved dead in Hades hear the Gospel and receive a chance to repent and get saved from out of Hades: "He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison [the wicked dead in Hades], who in former times did not obey (1 Peter 3:19-20). Read the confirmation of this teaching in 1 Peter 4:6.
Such texts could be multiplied and thus they refute a simplistic interpretation of "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27)." One must ask what happens after "the judgment." Indeed, consignment to Purgatory or Gehenna is already a divine judgment, but one with a second chance offered.
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I would point out that what the Lord's proclamation was not about the offering of salvation, nor does it state what was proclaimed. For the scripture states that only eight in all were saved in all. Nowhere in the scripture does it state that Jesus was offering those people salvation. In addition to this, we have the event of the rich man and Lazarus. He proclaimed to Abraham that he was in torment in flame and Abraham said to him,
" ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." And regarding getting out, being comforted, or warning his brothers so that they did not come to that same place of torment, the rich man said and Abraham replied:
"Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
There is no getting out! As I said before, if people had a second chance after death, no faith would be required for salvation and everyone could just live life in the sinful nature and then just accept the offer of salvation after they die. This is a lie straight from Satan! Consider also what Jesus told the religious leaders regarding this subject:
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
When one dies in their sins there is no hope of salvation after that. There is no scripture that even suggests the opportunity of salvation after death.
" ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony." And regarding getting out, being comforted, or warning his brothers so that they did not come to that same place of torment, the rich man said and Abraham replied:
"Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
There is no getting out! As I said before, if people had a second chance after death, no faith would be required for salvation and everyone could just live life in the sinful nature and then just accept the offer of salvation after they die. This is a lie straight from Satan! Consider also what Jesus told the religious leaders regarding this subject:
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
When one dies in their sins there is no hope of salvation after that. There is no scripture that even suggests the opportunity of salvation after death.
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There are so many verses you ripped out of context, that I don't have time to go through them all, but this one is the most blatant.
Paul is not teaching proxy baptism here, as the Mormons claim. He is simply describing their practice, which he implys would be meaningless if there is no resurrection from the dead. Again, using obscure passages to build a doctrine is poor hermeneutics, where else do the apostles teach this in Scripture? It is an important issue, so you'd think it was covered elsewhere...where?
Paul is not teaching proxy baptism here, as the Mormons claim. He is simply describing their practice, which he implys would be meaningless if there is no resurrection from the dead. Again, using obscure passages to build a doctrine is poor hermeneutics, where else do the apostles teach this in Scripture? It is an important issue, so you'd think it was covered elsewhere...where?
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As long as the righteous dead were in Sheol/Hades it was a virtual prison. They remained silent in the lower parts of the earth (the heart of the earth). And that is why we read this in the Bible:
EPHESIANS 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
What does "He led captivity captive" mean? The captivity of the OT saints is personified. They were held captive in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. But "when He ascended up on high" Christ too all the OT saints with Him to the New Jerusalem, where they are now "the spirits of just men made perfect" )Heb 12:22-24).
EPHESIANS 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
What does "He led captivity captive" mean? The captivity of the OT saints is personified. They were held captive in Sheol/Hades until the resurrection of Christ. But "when He ascended up on high" Christ too all the OT saints with Him to the New Jerusalem, where they are now "the spirits of just men made perfect" )Heb 12:22-24).
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K
While purgatory isn't in the Bible let's deal with the underlying issue. God doesn't send people to hell. We make that choice. We turn away from the truth,we walk away from God. In essence we make the choice. The Bible says that the truth of God is all around us and we are able to find it and that no one is without excuse. So even those in the darkest of places in the far corners of the earth have the opportunity to know Him. We will not get to heaven and say "I didn't have access to a Bible" or "I didn't live in a Christian family" etc. God can be found when we seek him. He says "Behold I stand at the door and knock". We have one chance for salvation,there is no purgatory.
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Perhaps the scripture passage is not explicitly clear but that doesn't mean that it should then be disregarded. There are a lot of things in the bible that are not perfectly clear, especially as evidenced in the BDF, because, no matter the topic or passage there is always a contrary opinion or interpretation. I do agree with you and scripture that salvation is a free gift by faith to the recipient, however it came at a high price for the One who offered it. I believe that we're done now on this topic, at least for this particular thread. Time to move forward once again.
crossnote,: "I guess you simply don’t see how pugatory runs contradictory to the plain facts of Scripture...where Jesus took our full punishment and paid the full price for our sins fully rescuing us from Judgment. Purgatory is another Gospel, a Gospel of works and those verses I gave are very å propos, as they give warning to those who preach/teach another Gospel.
""I am rejoicing in my suffereings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His body, the church (Colossians 1;24)."
crossnote: "It’s a complete contradiction also to such Scriptures as this...John 5:24 NASBS [24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
"He who eats an drinks [Holy Communion] without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment unto himself....But when we are judged by the Lord, we a re disciplined, so that we may not be cndemed along with the world (1 Corinthians 11:29, 32)."
""I am rejoicing in my suffereings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His body, the church (Colossians 1;24)."
crossnote: "It’s a complete contradiction also to such Scriptures as this...John 5:24 NASBS [24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
"He who eats an drinks [Holy Communion] without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment unto himself....But when we are judged by the Lord, we a re disciplined, so that we may not be cndemed along with the world (1 Corinthians 11:29, 32)."
No.. The catholic religon states pergatory is a place where people go and suffer to pay the penalty of their own sins.. This is in direct rebellion against the Gospel message that Jesus paid the price for our sins.. Only a religon that does not believe in the effectivness of the atonement of our LORD Jesus Christ would come up with sich a doctrine..
Jesus purges all our sins if we believe and trust Him.. Not a place called pergatory..
Jesus purges all our sins if we believe and trust Him.. Not a place called pergatory..
Adstar: "The catholic religon states pergatory is a place where people go and suffer to pay the penalty of their own sins.. This is in direct rebellion against the Gospel message that Jesus paid the price for our sins.. Only a religon that does not believe in the effectivness of the atonement of our LORD Jesus Christ would come up with sich a doctrine."
Nope! The fires of Purgatory are a symbol of a purification process. It is not a place of punishment, but a place of spiritual transformation that enables the sufferer to now live a grace-based life of gratitude.
crossnote: "Yes, salvation did come at a high price. Let’s not cheapen that price by man made constructs amounting to works assisted salvation."
First, Purgatory has nothing to do with "works assisted salvation."
Second, James 2:14 teaches that good works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition because works don't merit salvation; salvation is offered by grace through faith.
Nope! The fires of Purgatory are a symbol of a purification process. It is not a place of punishment, but a place of spiritual transformation that enables the sufferer to now live a grace-based life of gratitude.
crossnote: "Yes, salvation did come at a high price. Let’s not cheapen that price by man made constructs amounting to works assisted salvation."
First, Purgatory has nothing to do with "works assisted salvation."
Second, James 2:14 teaches that good works are a necessary condition for salvation, but not a sufficient condition because works don't merit salvation; salvation is offered by grace through faith.
I am not interested at all what the Catholic church says about purgatory but rather any scripture that would tend to support or negate the possibility of such a state or place. The passage from 1 Peter 3:18-20 tends to support the concept, but perhaps not conclusively. It certainly isn't a passage that negates the possibility of purgatory. For the purpose of continued dialogue I would prefer that outside sources are not mentioned but only what the bible may say about this subject.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This is not purgatory concept
Catholic purgatory believe is a temporary punishment before go to heaven to pay sin that are not forgiven during their life on earth.
Peter specific talk about people in Noah time, catholic was not exist in Noah time.
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Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel website summed it up nicely in his article: Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.
https://www.proclaimingthegospel.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=180066646&sec_id=180014816
Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.
https://www.proclaimingthegospel.org/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=180066646&sec_id=180014816