Second-chance Purgatory?

[garee]

My thoughts are as follows: Jesus, when speaking to small group of believers (Christians) said that there were others that were not of this fold and that He must gather them in also.

Not entirely sure if purgatory is scripturally sound but really don't think that God gives people a second chance to accept Him but rather one chance, albeit this chance may occur in stages over an extended period of time. Because you see, God is patient and does not want anyone to be condemned but rather, His will and desire is for everyone to believe in Him and accept the salvation that is offered from confession of sin, Jesus dying on the cross for these sins and for the believe to invite the Holy Spirit to live in their hears to comfort and guide them in the lifelong repentance process leading to sanctification.

I believe that your boyfriend raised a valid point in that our environment may be a crucial factor in determining what we chose to believe. God understands the human condition quite well and takes all things into consideration.

Hopefully, you will find comfort, support and understanding from the members of this site. Glad to have you as part of our community. Welcome to CC.

God does not give chances to be saved. He gives a new born again spirits that will never die and the promise of a new body to house the new spirit.

Purgatory like limbo before limbo was taken off the shelf does despite to the grace of God by creating illusions . The unforgivable heresy is likened to blasphemy.

The doctrine of purgatory comes from believing Christ's sacrifice provided a unknown amount or "remnant of grace". The phrase it is finished is made to no effect, first hand.

And throughout their lives any pain and suffering that does occur is added to the remnant of Christ work .To include pain from burns or any thing that causes suffering to include a unfaithful spouse or frost bite. it continues to be added to this list that would be impossible form any person other that this queen of heaven character they have developed and named Mary . She supervises it and give as account periodically. .I have been informed this queen of disembodied spirit gods (legion) named Mary reports that Lutherans and other sects are there also. Suffering for a unknow remnant of time or what kind of severity of suffering they must endure. No end in view

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[garee]

Ooops wrong spot.

 

[garee]

crossnote,: "I guess you simply don’t see how pugatory runs contradictory to the plain facts of Scripture...where Jesus took our full punishment and paid the full price for our sins fully rescuing us from Judgment. Purgatory is another Gospel, a Gospel of works and those verses I gave are very å propos, as they give warning to those who preach/teach another Gospel.

""I am rejoicing in my suffereings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His body, the church (Colossians 1;24)."

crossnote: "It’s a complete contradiction also to such Scriptures as this...John 5:24 NASBS [24] "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

"He who eats an drinks [Holy Communion] without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment unto himself....But when we are judged by the Lord, we a re disciplined, so that we may not be cndemed along with the world (1 Corinthians 11:29, 32)."

The words "it is finished' it are made are made to no effect by the doctrine of purgatory as a oral tradition of their fathers (mind set) which at one time did include the doctrine of limbo. It does despite to the grace of God. Christ did not offer a remnant of the wage of sin and say keep suffering through out your life and add any form of suffering to go with the remnant of grace as a unknow . No end ding statement or what severity of suffering.

They take verse as you have offered (Colossians 1;24) and use that to support their remnant of grace never full . Eating judgement would to do despite to the grave of God. Christ's labor of love lacks nothing as is why he said "it is finished " . Not a unknow has begun, saying ; Learn how to suffer who knows how much time will be shaved off, every little bit of suffering creates another time illusion .

What's lacking in Jesus suffering is he is not longer here represented by the flesh seen .

The fallen angels that are not subject to salvation have no idea what faith is and how it works seeing they are not given faith to believe God . Lying spirits simply launch there poisonous arrows (false doctrine) intended for Christ at anyone that names the name Christ .

 

[tourist]

The Bible says that Jesus paid the price of our sins on the cross in full..... And that totally dispells with the made up place called purgatory..

That's good enough for me as I don't have any plans on going to purgatory regardless if it is real or not. I received my salvation at the age of 14 so my name will remain in the Book of Life.

 

[jaybird88]

The Bible says that Jesus paid the price of our sins on the cross in full..... And that totally dispells with the made up place called purgatory..

why does the bible say every man faces judgment after death? judged for what when everything has been paid for?

 

[MadHermit]

mailmandan: "Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel website summed it up nicely in his article: Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?"
He just needs to dig deeper into the Word!

mailmandan: "Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. "He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself."

Just the opposite is defensible! Jesus says in John 3:17:
"God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him (John 3:17)."
(1) On your interpretation, God failed in His purpose because most of humanity is condemned for failing to respond to the Gospel. But you say, "the world" does not mean everyone." Wrong! "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:32)."
(2) Since the time of Jesus, most of our world has never even heard the Gospel. How unjust of God to condemn them. An omnipotent God could fulfill His purpose for Christ's incarnation. The concept of Purgatory actually allows God to be just by providing people with a chance for spiritual purification and an understanding of the Gospel of grace.
(3) and as I have repeatedly explained, God's Word allows Him to be just by clearly teaching the doctrine of Purgatory (e. g. 1 Peter 3:19-20; 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 3:15

 

[jaybird88]

Jews were teaching purgatory at least 500 yrs before the roman church came into being. the Jews at Qumran taught soul purification before the soul could enter heaven, the purification was done by fire. in the meantime they purified (baptized) themselves by water. first water then fire, where have we heard that before?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jews were teaching purgatory at least 500 yrs before the roman church came into being.

They were simply teaching praying for the dead, and for all Jews Sheol/Hades was the abode of departed souls and spirits, not Purgatory. It was probably in the second or third century AD, that the idea of Purgatory began to be taught by the Early Church Fathers (Origen, Clement of Alexandria, etc). Ever since it has been one of the dogmas of the Catholic Church (although the Orthodox Church does not believe this dogma).

 

[garee]

why does the bible say every man faces judgment after death? judged for what when everything has been paid for?

The judgment is the action or sentencing. Not the evaluating. that fact are all their. (no faith) never to rise to new spirt life forever and ever. Up in smoke.

The first judgment was put into process in the garden. In dying corruption, death is made complete. We are born into a body that begins that process dying when taking our first breath ending on the last . The first death experience for everyone.it represents the wrath of God being revealed .One death per person..

Those who have been given a new believing spirit and heart that will rise on the last day will receive the promise of their new bodies .
These new bodies that will house the new spirts we already have will not be of the corrupted rudiments of this world (flesh and blood) it will not enter the new incorruptible order. It either they are freely given the faith of Christ the, faith of God. Or they remain without any, none.( faith)

He that believeth is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John3 :18

Repeated in verse 36. No second trial for those without faith .The same for the believer.The judgment is set. No condemnation for those with the born again Spirit of Christ.. he will not be re crucified . You could say one trial per person .

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.John3 :36

Some say the final second death will be when God raises bones with no life and then they will be judged . Sort of like the Pope Formuasus trial.... get out the shovels and the old priestly cloth stored in moth balls dress him up and bebuke them old bones and send it back to purgatory for more suffering.

The Cadaver Synod (also called the Cadaver Trial; Latin: Synodus Horrenda) is the name commonly given to the posthumous ecclesiastical trial of Pope Formosus, held in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome during January 897.[1] The trial was conducted by Pope Stephen VI (sometimes called Stephen VII), the successor to Formosus' successor, Pope Boniface VI. Stephen had Formosus' corpse exhumed and brought to the papal court for judgment. He accused Formosus of perjury and of having acceded to the papacy illegally. At the end of the trial, Formosus was pronounced guilty and his papacy retroactively declared null.

 

[Adstar]

why does the bible say every man faces judgment after death? judged for what when everything has been paid for?

If ones sins are paid for ( as in the case of those who believe and trust in Jesus ) their judgement will be about what level of rewards they will recieve..

 

[garee]

They were simply teaching praying for the dead, and for all Jews Sheol/Hades was the abode of departed souls and spirits, not Purgatory. It was probably in the second or third century AD, that the idea of Purgatory began to be taught by the Early Church Fathers (Origen, Clement of Alexandria, etc). Ever since it has been one of the dogmas of the Catholic Church (although the Orthodox Church does not believe this dogma).

Yes, Praying what for the dead ? That their suffering is minimal? They like Catholicism have the same pattern of unbelief making the faith of Christ without effect.. Catholicism the Queen of literalism, walking by sight.

They prayed to those that have left this realm under the Sun called workers with familiar spirits as disembodied spirit gods.

Jesus named that influence legion (many ) . Catholic must call the patron saints. Their legion is (3500) and rising of Pope officiated workers with familiar spirits.

Jesus simply says "no praying for the dead". And no hiding those image idols (teraphims) as did Rachel from her father. They are needed to put a face on the Legion when it does come up as many.( never one).

As we are informed. Why not pray to the our living God (the one exclusive source of Christian faith) as a disembodied Spirit rather than dead men ????

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:19-19-20

 

[garee]

If ones sins are paid for ( as in the case of those who believe and trust in Jesus ) their judgement will be about what level of rewards they will recieve..

I would suggest everyone receive the same reward a penny worth. It equals eternal life. Its the agreement we made with God as he gave us His faith to make it possible .

Can't get much higher of a reward that that of eternal life.

 

[Adstar]

I would suggest everyone receive the same reward a penny worth. It equals eternal life. Its the agreement we made with God as he gave us His faith to make it possible .

Can't get much higher of a reward that that of eternal life.

Eternal salvation is a wonderful gift indeed.. But there will be those considered greater in the kingdom of God and those who will be considered least..

Matthew 16: KJV
27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

1 Corinthians 3: KJV
8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."

 

[garee]

Eternal salvation is a wonderful gift indeed.. But there will be those considered greater in the kingdom of God and those who will be considered least..

Matthew 16: KJV
27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

1 Corinthians 3: KJV
8 "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."

I would offer all the same kind of work' or labor do the will of another. His own labor not his own idea of the reward.

Yes some are given a greater position. The Son gave the father a greater position in their work. Jesus chose the lower.

The last one to receive the reward for his work below in his jealousy demanded Jesus's attention. What did Jesus say.? You worked faster you deserve two pennies? or you worked longer you receive three?

Every man receives his own reward according to his own labor. its what makes cents, or in this case... one cent = eternal life.

Matthew 20:12-14 King James Version (KJV)Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

I think we should be careful that we do not give the work God is performing in us to both will and do his good pleasure the credit to us as a understanding that rises above it as it is written... That which performs the works.

The faithless Jew performed that turning things upside down. . The Catholics perform using the words apostles succession as another source of faith that does arise above that which is written.

It is like what Paul concludes....."For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it"?

1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV)Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not
received it?

There will be no judgment as to what the one reward will be .The last day is not a time of evaluation but a judgment the verdict is in , the time of execution, the receiving of our new bodies.

 

[MadHermit]

They [hte Jews] were simply teaching praying for the dead, and for all Jews Sheol/Hades was the abode of departed souls and spirits, not Purgatory. It was probably in the second or third century AD, that the idea of Purgatory began to be taught by the Early Church Fathers (Origen, Clement of Alexandria, etc). Ever since it has been one of the dogmas of the Catholic Church (although the Orthodox Church does not believe this dogma).

Your response demonstrates just how ignorant you are of the teaching of ancient rabbinic Judaism. The Jewish view of Gehenna, shared by Jesus, is the rough equivalent of Purgatory because they viewed Gehenna as a realm of purifying fire, from which one typically gained release within a year. Paul uses the rabbinic phrase that expresses the expected ultimate release from Gehenna in 1 Corinthians 3:16: "saved, yet so as by fire."

 

[Nehemiah6]

Your response demonstrates just how ignorant you are of the teaching of ancient rabbinic Judaism.

Since they are of little consequence, Christians are better off being ignorant about nonsense.

 

[jaybird88]

If ones sins are paid for ( as in the case of those who believe and trust in Jesus ) their judgement will be about what level of rewards they will recieve..

thats not a judgment, thats the end result after a judgment. a judgment is when one is held accountable for their actions.

 

[garee]

Your response demonstrates just how ignorant you are of the teaching of ancient rabbinic Judaism. The Jewish view of Gehenna, shared by Jesus, is the rough equivalent of Purgatory because they viewed Gehenna as a realm of purifying fire, from which one typically gained release within a year. Paul uses the rabbinic phrase that expresses the expected ultimate release from Gehenna in 1 Corinthians 3:16: "saved, yet so as by fire."

Within a literal year or one that represents an unknown amount of time?

Which rabbinic Judaism Jewish view in respect to which rabbinic Jew?

 

[MadHermit]

Since they are of little consequence, Christians are better off being ignorant about nonsense.

Since they are of little consequence, Christians are better off being ignorant about nonsense.

Now you are displaying your ignorance of the rule of culture in developing the meaning of philosophical/ theological words and phrases. Modern Bible scholars see the need to invoke Jewish backgrounds for interpretation, not because that background is divinely inspired, but because it determines the idioms, nuances, and figures of speech used by Jesus and the apostles.

 

[jaybird88]

Your response demonstrates just how ignorant you are of the teaching of ancient rabbinic Judaism. The Jewish view of Gehenna, shared by Jesus, is the rough equivalent of Purgatory because they viewed Gehenna as a realm of purifying fire, from which one typically gained release within a year. Paul uses the rabbinic phrase that expresses the expected ultimate release from Gehenna in 1 Corinthians 3:16: "saved, yet so as by fire."

most just dont want to hear it, they think its a Catholic thing, makes no difference how big the mountain of facts are that prove it existed long before.
selling indulgences was the issue but since the church was using purgatory to sell them people wanted to throw it out as well. non Catholic money churches use (twist) scriptures like the widows offering to swindle poor people out of every last penny they own, it doesnt mean the scripture is false and should be removed from the bible, it just means these teachers are money mizing slimeballs.