Seducing spirits and doctrines of devils

[ember]

Of course, I am speaking generically here, as there are many people, on all sides of these debates that do this, and it adds nothing to the discussion. Putting "judgement" or "die" or "condemnation" into Biblegateway.com, or Biblehub, OpenVerses. Etc, shows you can do an Internet search, but not actually understand the context and the purpose of the verse. Nor the theological implications of what Jesus, Paul or any Old Testament prophet was saying!

bummer that

 

[Grace777x70]

Maybe you can UNhilight it for those who feel condemned by Gods word when it is highlighted[/B]?

Maybe that will help?

...I see you have completely missed what is being said by some people here ...and then you "twist" it to say people "who feel condemned by God's word when it is highlighted."

In the words of the church lady.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So yes, I spent a lot of time, research and energy to examine some of the verses posted by "your" side! And yet not one person from "your" side replied. That was disappointing to me. I would like to hear a rebuttal based on your theology, and showing me how and in what way my interpretation of the clear message of Scripture was not correct.

Angela, I find it confusing and odd that you think we are divided up into opposing teams or sides. But it's particularly confusing that you are now aligning with those who hold hyper grace views, whereas in the past you have openly opposed it. I can't imagine that you now embrace this doctrine, but you openly support those who promote it.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Angela, I find it confusing and odd that you think we are divided up into opposing teams or sides. But it's particularly confusing that you are now aligning with those who hold hyper grace views, whereas in the past you have openly opposed it. I can't imagine that you now embrace this doctrine, but you openly support those who promote it.

PW Paraphrase: "I find it odd that you think we're divided into opposing sides...and further confusing that you're taking the other side..."


Yup--confusing topic. I still haven't figured out what "Hyper-grace doctrine" means.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

PW Paraphrase: "I find it odd that you think we're divided into opposing sides...and further confusing that you're taking the other side..."

Yup--confusing topic. I still haven't figured out what "Hyper-grace doctrine" means.

Why don't you study it and find out?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Why don't you study it and find out?

I guess I'm not interested in drawing a line between having "too much" or "too little" faith.

Especially since it is God who gives us our faith (Romans 12:3).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I guess I'm not interested in drawing a line between having "too much" or "too little" faith.

Especially since it is God who gives us our faith (Romans 12:3).

I guess you meant grace instead of faith. The hyper grace issue isn't analog, it's digital. True or False. Hyper grace doctrine crosses the threshold where True turns to False.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I find it odd, SpiritinTruth, that in post #312, I posted a good exegetical anaylsis of where a Scripture had been pulled out of context in this thread, and I discussed the implications of the verse, the passage, and in context of other verses that Jesus had talked about on the same topic.

It was relevant, because it was New Testament (Covenant), and I would have liked to hear your opposing views as to what I posts.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do expect Bibical answers as to why you think I am wrong. Whereas, you love to pull Old Testament verses out of context, or New Testament ones which support your "prophet of doom" proclamations.

So yes, I spent a lot of time, research and energy to examine some of the verses posted by "your" side! And yet not one person from "your" side replied. That was disappointing to me. I would like to hear a rebuttal based on your theology, and showing me how and in what way my interpretation of the clear message of Scripture was not correct.

My thread was totally based on the Bible and Scripture. Because it is the Bible Discussion Forum. I try very hard not to get into personal opinion threads, and attacks on those I don't agree with (although HeRose might be somewhat justified in refuting that - a mistake on my part, for sure! And for that I publicly apologize!)

Of course, if you have me on ignore, that would make it difficult for you to discuss my post. Although I think we have rarely interacted! And although I totally disagree with your hermeneutics and interpretation, I do read carefully what you have posted, as it is usually from the Bible.

My final comment would be that much more would be gained from our discussions if you were to take one verse in context of the passage, and show the BDF how it supports your theology. When you post 10 or 20 verses, without a single one being in a passage, and without the clarity of seeing who was saying it and to whom and what were the circumstances surrounding that passage, it becomes little more than a wall of text, and it is difficult to to discuss.

I don't have the time to go back and exegete 10-20 verses, and see exactly what each one of them is talking about. Personally, and from the training and experience I have had in Bible interpretation, there is no better way to twist Scripture than to research a topic, pull single verses and post them all. That results in a complete lack of understanding of what each verses is actually talking about.

Of course, I am speaking generically here, as there are many people, on all sides of these debates that do this, and it adds nothing to the discussion. Putting "judgement" or "die" or "condemnation" into Biblegateway.com, or Biblehub, OpenVerses. Etc, shows you can do an Internet search, but not actually understand the context and the purpose of the verse. Nor the theological implications of what Jesus, Paul or any Old Testament prophet was saying!

If I recall your post was not directed to me, nor was it about the OP. I believe you directed that post to HRFTD. I hope you don't expect me to respond to every post made in this thread, especially ones that are off topic. Also I think a lot of people miss the "context" of the message as a whole. And then because they disagree with the whole of the message they will then try to find fault in the message anyway they can, even by crying CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT of single verse, or verses instead of looking at the "context" of the message as a whole.

People who look for fault will find fault, people who do not want to believe will also find reasons to doubt. Often times I see people as yourself who are "educated" by the world and carnally minded men try to discredit a message by playing the "context card" or by saying that is not in the "original text", or that word is not "properly translated" in greek, or that is a "bad translation" or that is not "proper exegesis" or "hermeneutics."

I laugh at this tactic because it just another tool used to deny the truth and try to discredit the whole of the message. Truth is no one has seen the original letters to say this or that is not in the originals, or this or that word in not proper. Also proper interpretation belongs to God, and to those who he has chosen to reveal that mystery to, it is not found in schools of mans "higher learning". The wisdom of this world is foolish with God.

Also another thing is the carnal mind cannot grasp how we who are of the Spirit compare spiritual things with spiritual in scripture, and to the natural man this is type of comparing is just foolishness as written. Keep in mind, Jesus said God chose to reveal these mysteries to the simple, but to hide them from the wise and prudent of this world.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If I recall your post was not directed to me, nor was it about the OP. I believe you directed that post to HRFTD.

I wasn't paying attention. The post was too long to engage my interest.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I wasn't paying attention. The post was too long to engage my interest.

Yeah, I didn't think it took a "higher school" of learning and mans own boasting of "proper exegesis" to know what Jesus meant about knowing a tree by it's fruit. It seems simple enough to understand to me.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Angela, I find it confusing and odd that you think we are divided up into opposing teams or sides. But it's particularly confusing that you are now aligning with those who hold hyper grace views, whereas in the past you have openly opposed it. I can't imagine that you now embrace this doctrine, but you openly support those who promote it.

And I love the whole "posted by your side" deal LOL!

Just as there are various protestant sects who hold to this or to that here on this forum, I might agree more with you and InSpirit in more then a few things but its not like I even get anything that pertains to these gnostic fellows the earlier fathers (as they are called) wrote about. Well, you know what I mean, the gnostic stuff you might sometimes post, and because I refuse to study things (even doctrines) outside the scripture I wouldnt (naturally). Your contention with some wouldnt be mine so much in that in particular. But I dont always agree with InSpiritInTuth on everything either (even as he knows it) but I dont make it an issue between us or set out to target him to see something the same as I might, or cut him off from myself (and setting myself up as some standard he must meet me at). He doesnt even ask that of me and he is often gracious, that the Lord shows a thing to someone he doesnt take up an argument with me over things I might not be following him on. And we can agree in the Lord and be freinds having differences (which might be something more obscure to me then it is to him in something), but in the mean time I might be able to see more and more where he might be coming from on a thing (and even he me) and whatever increase there might be (wherever that might come, even between) I leave that to God.

Even I post things as I have been shown (and I suspect he does also) as I would think most of us do. And if there is any middle road ever to be met upon or any changes of mind on a thing or two its best met by the word of God (and because he listens to that as I would) and likely before he would listen to folks in a blown gasket state of mind whining in and out of the threads he posts with their backhanded comments (thinking that will somehow be helpful) to teaching him some valuable lesson because they find the words in the scriptures he posts depressing? Its not like he wrote them LOL. So I dont think doing that is helpful. And I dont even think it can be seen where I disagree with him where I might because I rarely post to be disagreeable then I do just to add in something to "consider" because I have found that approach to be far better (and consider "shutting up" moreso because striking up a conversation with every person on here isnt what it presents itself to be (even a pretense of trying to appear agreeable) which exposed, to me its deception but as long as I dont have to partake of that (while occupying the same space) I could manage. So my thought, is just speak the words of God (show where your considerations come from) and leave off of those who refuse to do that and who just want to start something and then when they do (or you feel they might) just copy it for reference. Would be nice for a forum where you can show the complaints in a section where its moderated to free a decent thread of this sort of thing.

I would guess the posting to any side here would be to whatever is being shown of this hyper grace type doctrine, and not even so much to that but moreso how it was worded through this mans followers (a few of the which I have on ignore now) and the forum has been a nicer experience, I just have a couple on consideration to that.

I think it would be wrong for all to assume we are agreed together in everything 100% I dont believe we are (or can be at one given time) I might be wrong on that. And besides, even I know that there is not always a gaurentee everything posted (even if correct) will be agreed upon with with someone who feels differently according to other places which were not considered. Let alone a verse here or there not correctly posted (as we all see in part) but even still that doesnt always matter either I have found. And because I have even crosschecked myself and found that I had posted a verse or two here or there out of order but there were so many of those that were not that they changed nothing at all to point such out (deleted them and the picture remained) and another reason is because I often try to prove a thing at least three ways (even more if I am able) and cross check it back and forth to see if it works. So I even had an example of in a thing I was following the wording in one place (and yet borrowing wording out of another place back into what I was reaching to show (in Christ) but when I did it all I did was violate the other parts orginal context (where I lifted it from) in respects to what it was showing (which I was not showing) but it didnt violate (in itself) a thing I was showing (it just simply didnt belong there) and that sometimes happens if you are not watching. And I find that more truer when in trying to highlight a truth (more precisely) we can reach too far. But one verse being incorrect in that over reaching often makes very little difference when it is heavily sourced (and is something you are trying to confirm (not contradict) in the word. It becomes a very small thing, its not always as large as folks try to make it (not that it cant be). AndsSo when folks go after WORDS or A VERSE "out of context" that is very often recoverable and makes no difference. Obviously, there are exceptions sure but it doesnt have to.

I wish they had a forum where scripture only can be posted on topics about scriptures to avoid those who dont, a more stricter forum (or a sort of subforum existed) to weed that out of the threads. A place would probably work well in that from there one could take their questions or disagreements with that which is posted and bring it into the larger area where folks love to speak more from themselves there. So that they can still their strifes (and arent really silenced but on the subforum threads) you can get more clarity (without the wishy washy whiny stuff) and then bring it into an argument (and what was brought forth outside of it) if it has merit brought in to the other and better settled. Or something like that.

You dont need to answer me, I was just saying, sorry I was longwinded there.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Mine is longer

 

[RobbyEarl]

Well lets measure.

 

[Angela53510]

If I recall your post was not directed to me, nor was it about the OP. I believe you directed that post to HRFTD. I hope you don't expect me to respond to every post made in this thread, especially ones that are off topic. Also I think a lot of people miss the "context" of the message as a whole. And then because they disagree with the whole of the message they will then try to find fault in the message anyway they can, even by crying CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT of single verse, or verses instead of looking at the "context" of the message as a whole.

People who look for fault will find fault, people who do not want to believe will also find reasons to doubt. Often times I see people as yourself who are "educated" by the world and carnally minded men try to discredit a message by playing the "context card" or by saying that is not in the "original text", or that word is not "properly translated" in greek, or that is a "bad translation" or that is not "proper exegesis" or "hermeneutics."

I laugh at this tactic because it just another tool used to deny the truth and try to discredit the whole of the message. Truth is no one has seen the original letters to say this or that is not in the originals, or this or that word in not proper. Also proper interpretation belongs to God, and to those who he has chosen to reveal that mystery to, it is not found in schools of mans "higher learning". The wisdom of this world is foolish with God.

Also another thing is the carnal mind cannot grasp how we who are of the Spirit compare spiritual things with spiritual in scripture, and to the natural man this is type of comparing is just foolishness as written. Keep in mind, Jesus said God chose to reveal these mysteries to the simple, but to hide them from the wise and prudent of this world.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven annd earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

The post was directed to anyone who wanted to read it, with a quote from HRFD. And since you had started the thread, I thought you might well respond. Not that you are in any way obligated to answer every post. It just seems to be a "rule" around here that people do reply to most of the posts on threads that they have made. I do understand why you would not want to respond, but as far as the content, it was definitely about the OP. It was about the truth of the branches and how God was the one who prunes, burns the branches and also picks the fruit. And that it is God who chooses who will bear fruit, not our own efforts.But we needed argue about it if you do not think is was on-topic.

Your OP is one which was full of judgement and condemnation. While I agree if those passages (not just one verse) are directed to unbelievers, they are certainly inappropriate for born again believers! You are not the judge, only God is. And only God will knows who are his right now and forever.

As far as education, I sort of understood hermeneutical principles long before I went to Seminary and studied it. One doesn't have to be a genius or even have a high school education to understand the basic principle that you need to read the whole passage, chapter or book, and understand the historical and grammatical principles to properly form doctrine.

And please understand I am talking doctrine! The gospel is definitely simple enough for a 2 year old to understand. In fact, they believe better than any adult, because as a mother and grandmother, I have seen that simple faith and obedience that Jesus is talking about in Matt 11:25.

But as far as a judgemental and condemnatory OP and verses posted, a different story. The prophets of the Old Testament were instructed by God to speak to their own people. Or in some cases (Jonah comes to mind!) other cultures. The Israelites had seen the power of God repeatedly in their culture, and yet they somehow forgot it, and turned to false gods. Yet the Ninevites heard the Word of the Lord and repented in sack and ashes! I do wonder if some of those crying antinomianism would be like Jonah and sit down and sulk if people heeded their message, and were saved?

Genre, such as the use of poetry in many cases, means that we need to look at some of these Scriptures a bit differently than if they were straight prose. When the books were written is another very important thing. Because sometimes, Judah had a good King and the people followed God. Israel never had a king that followed God, so a different story.

I won't bore you and HeRose with a long post, again, that you are unwilling to read.

But I will show you an example of how pulling verses out of context can actually warp and pervert them. And, just for you, it is about demons!

"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

"You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder." James 2:19

Here in Acts 16, Paul tells the Phillippian jailer than the way to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. In James, the author says that the demons believe in God.

Therefore, the demons are saved!

Simple logic, and simple faith on the part of the demons, right?

Perhaps as mature Christians, we do need to go a bit beyond ripping verses out of their context, and actually study the books and chapters, instead of googling verses that fit out pet theories, and posting the all up at once. I am sure if I took the time to look at each verse in the OP, I could probably find at least one or two, that in context have a different meaning than just supporting a pet theory in the OP.

 

[RobbyEarl]

All the hostility, ding ding round is over, have some tea and crumpets think and then come back loving.

 

[Angela53510]

We are called to be fruit inspectors by the chief fruit inspector himself - Jesus Christ. That's how we know who is following the truth and who isn't.

You will recognize them by their fruits: they do not gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles, [do they]? In the [same] way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree is not able to produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree to produce good fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. As a result, you will recognize them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16-20

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are evident: everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10​

Perhaps, despite the length of my first post on this thread, you really need to go back and read my post #312. I deal with Matt. 7:16-20 in great detail.

Sorry you have ADD or ADHD or something that makes it difficult for you to concentrate on long posts. But since most of the post is Scripture, including the same one as above, you might find that it makes for easier reading.

You can do it!

(I could copy and paste it to put it nearer the end if you want! Just let me know!) Page 16, post #312! And Grace777 also reposted it on page 18 here)

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

It can be shown that you can use various verses from elsewhere (and out of their initial contextes) to create another context in order to prove the truth of God, like these for example, Leviticus 18:5 Duet 30:12-14 & Duet 32:32, Isaiah 28:16, 52:7,65:1-2 53:1 Psalms 19:4 & Joel 2:32 pulling them out of their contexts and using them together doesnt contradict.

 

[Angela53510]

It can be shown that you can use various verses from elsewhere (and out of their initial contextes) to create another context in order to prove the truth of God, like these for example, Leviticus 18:5Duet 30:12-14 & Duet 32:32, Isaiah 28:16, 52:7,65:1-2 53:1 Psalms 19:4 & Joel 2:32 pulling them out of their contexts and using them together doesnt contradict.

Just a small point -Deut NOT Duet. A duet is something two people play on musical instruments or sing.

Deut is short for Deuteronomy. And no, you really can't pull them out of context, and understand their meaning. Esp. When those verses date back to the just after the Exodus, when the Israelities had not crossed the Jordan River to begin the conquest, through to later prophets like Isaiah and Joel warning of captivity for the disobedient Israelites.

That is like pulling the following verse out, and saying it applies to today. Which sadly, is a criticism often levelled at Christians, for taking the Bible literally. Of course, it was to be taken literally by those to whom it was addressed - The Israelities - just not us!

(Deuteronomy 2:33-34)--"And the Lord our God delivered him over to us; and we defeated him with his sons and all his people. 34So we captured all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."The command by God to kill all inside a city is seen by many to be immoral and a demonstration that the Bible is not true. But, we must examine the issue in light of its context--its Biblical context--not in light of present-day, non-Christian assumptions. If we want to see if it is moral or not, we must know which morals are in question.
First of all, the context of this verse is dealing with the wickedness of the Amorite king Sihon of Hesbon, a city of the Amorites (Num. 21:25). They were a wicked people (Gen. 15:16, 2 Kings 21:11). When the Israelites wanted to pass through their land during their exodus from Egypt, the Amorites refused them safe passage and attacked the Israelites. However, they were soundly defeated by Israel (Num. 21:21-31). It is in this context that God delivered them over to the Israelites, that is, in the context of the battle.
Why would the decision of the Amorites be so serious to God that He would have all their people wiped out? The answer is simple. God tells the Israelites why the people were destroyed. It was because of the wickedness of the Amorite people.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," (Deut. 9:5).
​

God has declared that the Amorite people deserved to die because of their sins. They remained unrepentant (unlike Nineveh), and the righteous wrath of God fell upon them via the Israelites. Since all are sinners, all deserve to die. They were no exception. Nevertheless, God is merciful by allowing them to live. In the case of the Amorites, God was gracious to them by letting them live and enjoy life with its generic blessings from God (provision of rain, sun, water, etc.,) while He encouraged them to repent of their sins. They refused to turn from their immorality and were finally wiped out.
Also, the death of a child might be a very merciful thing because had the child grown up in the sin of the Amorite culture, it would surely have suffered the eternal wrath of God. If the "age of accountability" notion is correct, then God delivered them into His hands, and it is possible that by this they were spared eternal damnation.
The final and most important reason for their destruction is that God needed to keep the messianic line pure so that Jesus could be born, and thereby redeem His people so that believers could go to Heaven. Without Jesus' sacrifice, all would be damned. If the Amorites were allowed to live, surely they would have influenced the Jewish nation in a harmful way, thereby threatening the arrival of the Messiah. Therefore, God in His righteous judgment executed judgment upon them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Perhaps, despite the length of my first post on this thread, you really need to go back and read my post #312. I deal with Matt. 7:16-20 in great detail.

Sorry you have ADD or ADHD or something that makes it difficult for you to concentrate on long posts. But since most of the post is Scripture, including the same one as above, you might find that it makes for easier reading.

You can do it!

(I could copy and paste it to put it nearer the end if you want! Just let me know!) Page 16, post #312! And Grace777 also reposted it on page 18 here)

I don't need a long post to tell me what Matthew 7:16-20 means. It's pretty obvious - a tree's known by what it produces. Jesus was a master of simplicity.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The post was directed to anyone who wanted to read it, with a quote from HRFD. And since you had started the thread, I thought you might well respond. Not that you are in any way obligated to answer every post. It just seems to be a "rule" around here that people do reply to most of the posts on threads that they have made. I do understand why you would not want to respond, but as far as the content, it was definitely about the OP. It was about the truth of the branches and how God was the one who prunes, burns the branches and also picks the fruit. And that it is God who chooses who will bear fruit, not our own efforts.But we needed argue about it if you do not think is was on-topic.

Your OP is one which was full of judgement and condemnation. While I agree if those passages (not just one verse) are directed to unbelievers, they are certainly inappropriate for born again believers! You are not the judge, only God is. And only God will knows who are his right now and forever.

As far as education, I sort of understood hermeneutical principles long before I went to Seminary and studied it. One doesn't have to be a genius or even have a high school education to understand the basic principle that you need to read the whole passage, chapter or book, and understand the historical and grammatical principles to properly form doctrine.

And please understand I am talking doctrine! The gospel is definitely simple enough for a 2 year old to understand. In fact, they believe better than any adult, because as a mother and grandmother, I have seen that simple faith and obedience that Jesus is talking about in Matt 11:25.

But as far as a judgemental and condemnatory OP and verses posted, a different story. The prophets of the Old Testament were instructed by God to speak to their own people. Or in some cases (Jonah comes to mind!) other cultures. The Israelites had seen the power of God repeatedly in their culture, and yet they somehow forgot it, and turned to false gods. Yet the Ninevites heard the Word of the Lord and repented in sack and ashes! I do wonder if some of those crying antinomianism would be like Jonah and sit down and sulk if people heeded their message, and were saved?

Genre, such as the use of poetry in many cases, means that we need to look at some of these Scriptures a bit differently than if they were straight prose. When the books were written is another very important thing. Because sometimes, Judah had a good King and the people followed God. Israel never had a king that followed God, so a different story.

I won't bore you and HeRose with a long post, again, that you are unwilling to read.

But I will show you an example of how pulling verses out of context can actually warp and pervert them. And, just for you, it is about demons!

"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

"You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder." James 2:19

Here in Acts 16, Paul tells the Phillippian jailer than the way to be saved is to believe in Jesus Christ. In James, the author says that the demons believe in God.

Therefore, the demons are saved!

Simple logic, and simple faith on the part of the demons, right?

Perhaps as mature Christians, we do need to go a bit beyond ripping verses out of their context, and actually study the books and chapters, instead of googling verses that fit out pet theories, and posting the all up at once. I am sure if I took the time to look at each verse in the OP, I could probably find at least one or two, that in context have a different meaning than just supporting a pet theory in the OP.

The difference between me and you is the difference between heaven and earth. You are born of this world, and I am born from heaven above. You were taught by men, but I was not taught by any man. Your theology is not your own, as it is that of other carnally minded men like yourself. My doctrine is not my own, but that which I received from the Lord by the revelation of Jesus Christ and the anointing of the Holy Spirit. This is why you do not receive our testimony, because those who are of the world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it sees Him not. Have a nice evening.