Serious Questions about the Trinity

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Feb 23, 2011
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#41
It's quite simple. The Trinity is the established orthodox dogma, you dissent against that, therefore by simple definition that would make you a heretic, which means you would be outside the fold of orthodoxy, and that puts you firmly in the realm of heterodox Christianity.
Ahhhhh... There it is... The default mandate by the institutional church that agreement with Trinity is the only acceptable and inherently salvific belief. God didn't formulate Trinity; man inferred it and has coerced and anathematized all else and all others.

Orthodoxy, schmorthodoxy. Man-made religion. And you're a Filioquer... the first division from Trinity doctrine.

I couldn't care less about your fallacious affiliation with the runner-up to the EOC and its tainted history and heresy. It's not God's standard.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#42
Ahhhhh... There it is... The default mandate by the institutional church that agreement with Trinity is the only acceptable and inherently salvific belief. God didn't formulate Trinity; man inferred it and has coerced and anathematized all else and all others.

Orthodoxy, schmorthodoxy. Man-made religion. And you're a Filioquer... the first division from Trinity doctrine.

I couldn't care less about your fallacious affiliation with the runner-up to the EOC and its tainted history and heresy. It's not God's standard.
I would of course beg to differ that it's not God's standard. Regardless, you my friend, by ever definition of the word, are the heretic, not I. Still I find it absolutely hilarious that people will bash the decisions of the First and Second Councils of Nicaea, but will readily accept the canon of scripture given to them by other Church councils.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#43
I would of course beg to differ that it's not God's standard. Regardless, you my friend, by ever definition of the word, are the heretic, not I. Still I find it absolutely hilarious that people will bash the decisions of the First and Second Councils of Nicaea, but will readily accept the canon of scripture given to them by other Church councils.
Heresy originally simply meant "teaching". After St. Iraeneus' "Against Heresies", the etymology gradually changed to mean "wrong teaching".

I've copiously researched and studied orthodox dogma and church history to a degree beyond your comprehension. Just because a self-proclaimed institutional church declares me or anyone as anything is irrelevant and superfluous. The Papacy itself is evidence of error, compromise, and corruption.

I can accept the process of canonization and concur with the result without affirming other things that don't bear up under scrutiny... like Godhead formulation.

I affirm 90%+ of the contributing tenets to Trinity, but God is not three "persons". Only blind assent and indoctrination masquerading as faith would assent to such pagan-derived, Gnostic-influenced inane dogma of veiled Tritheism.

Orthodoxy is supposed to mean "right teaching". Orthodoxy is, itself, heterodoxy. What an absurd paradox.
 
R

Raistlin

Guest
#44
1. Since the Holy Spirit begot Jesus through Mary, doesn't that mean He has to be God the Father of Jesus?

The Holy Spirit is sent from God the Father (John 15 26). He is not the Father but proceeds out from within the Father.

Isaiah 32:15 >
Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.

Acts 10:45 >
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.







Can God Himself be poured out? NO.But His Spirit from within can.

And this is what is meant.




2. When we call God a "He," who are we referring to? Is there are fourth person suggested by this?
He (Holy Spirit) is called He because it denotes the source gender...the Father being that source.


For example, what if I say "I believe in God - I believe in Him." Who is the "Him" referring to? One or all of the persons of God, or the being of God?

Usually, the Trinity model has "God" in the middle, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Triangle around it. However, when we call God a "He," this is what it seems to suggest instead:

{-----------Son (person)
GOD (person?){ ------------Father (person)
{---------- Holy Spirit (person)


Or does it not?
NO.
One God the Father.
His Son whom God crowned God.
And the Holy Spirit is what dwells within God, and now within men also.


3. When in Isaiah 53 God says that He will raise up His servant...who was speaking? Is the Father speaking now? Is the Son speaking about His servant (Himself?)?
The Father is speaking.
Jesus is that servant.

4. If Jesus has the nature of God, how can He be "granted" to have life in Himself?
Christians develop the nature of God also as they grow spiritually.
Simply means we start to develop Godly attributes like honesty, meekness, love, compassion etc.

5. If Jesus has the nature of God, why would He say "Not my will but yours be done?" Isn't His will God's will, since He is God incarnate? (not the Father but the Son.)
Jesus has His own will as well, what you quoted proves that.
But Jesus did not come to do His own will, but the will of His Father.
He was a servant remember.

6. If Jesus has the nature of God, why would He say "If you believe in Me, you do not believe in Me, but in Him who sent me?" How can you not believe in Jesus if He is God?
Because Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. And He is ordained as God by His God the Father.

7. A more obvious question, why did the Son not know the day of His return? I know the argument that He laid aside divine rights when He took on human flesh - but how can you lay aside knowledge? I understand laying aside authority (which was given back to Him I guess when He came here...and when He went into heaven), but knowledge?
The Word/Spirit was put into Jesus. Jesus grew in understanding as He aged. It is that Spirit which came down from God out of heaven.
How is it logical to lay aside all understanding only to be taught that understanding by that Spirit all over again? Why bother then removing that understanding in the first place if he were to just learn EVERYTHING all over again...there is absolutely no point nor logic behind that doctrine.


8. Can I say "There is one God, the Father," as in 1 Corinthians 8:6, or must I say "There is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" Wasn't Paul excluding the Son and the Holy Spirit here?

I understand we could say "The Father is the one God." But can we say "the one God is the Father..."?
Just read Hebrews again. God ordained His Son as God also.
But there is still only one God. How?
Well Jesus is the Word of God. That means He speaks on Gods behalf.
So everything this God Jesus does, is still obeying His Fathers will.
So how many God's are there really?
ONE.
Remember Satan is god of this world?
He disobeys God...
Why is it not said then that there are indeed two Gods, one good & one bad? Did scripture err?
No, Why? Because God made Satan...God was the source...just as was that Spirit that was put into the man Jesus...that same Spirit came from that same source.
So there is always only ever one God.
There is NO other source for life's origin in all of existence but from the Father.


There are more questions I have, but this is suitable for now. Please understand - I really am trying to get a hold on this. Why is it so complicated? I have read much on the Trinity. I've listened to James White's debates, I've read Putting Jesus in His Place, I have tried to study the passages of Scripture with the little knowledge I have, I have done more - but just as the Trinity seems to be right, another question pops up in my head (and it usually goes unanswered).



Just try to answer the best you can - but please do it after praying and searching deeply. I don't want throw-off answers - this is serious. Don't even look at my age, just look at the questions.



Grace and Love
Where do you think these questions are coming from?
Could it be that the Holy Spirit is trying to show you something?

Remember this:
Matthew 10:37 > He that loveth father or mother more than Me is Not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of me.

In other words, Do not listen to any man, your father, your mother, your best mate, your girlfriend, your priest...no one....listen instead to that Spirit which is calling out to you...
It is that Spirit after all who is the teacher...
And if He is trying to reach you, and you decide instead to listen to loved ones...wouldn't you then be making yourself one of those in Matthew 10:37?
Just listen to Him...
His Word is sufficient.


 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#45
Where do you think these questions are coming from?
Could it be that the Holy Spirit is trying to show you something?

Remember this:
Matthew 10:37 > He that loveth father or mother more than Me is Not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of me.

In other words, Do not listen to any man, your father, your mother, your best mate, your girlfriend, your priest...no one....listen instead to that Spirit which is calling out to you...
It is that Spirit after all who is the teacher...
And if He is trying to reach you, and you decide instead to listen to loved ones...wouldn't you then be making yourself one of those in Matthew 10:37?
Just listen to Him...
His Word is sufficient.


Oh, I listen to the Spirit now, and He shows me that Jesus is, indeed, God in the flesh. I worship Him and honor Him as God, my Creator, because He commanded me to (John 5:23).


Grace and Love
 
J

Joe90

Guest
#46
Oh, I listen to the Spirit now, and He shows me that Jesus is, indeed, God in the flesh. I worship Him and honor Him as God, my Creator, because He commanded me to (John 5:23).


Grace and Love
Hi Zack

You are absolutely right to do so.

But if it's God in the flesh does that now mean that Jesus is his own father?
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#47
Hi Zack

You are absolutely right to do so.

But if it's God in the flesh does that now mean that Jesus is his own father?
Well, I'm not a Oneness believer, so, no.


I do, however, believe that there are three...persons (for lack of a better English word)...who all share in the essence of deity. So, there is:

-The Father, the Father and (now) God of Jesus.
-The Son, now in the flesh, Jesus Christ my Lord
-The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of both the Father and the Son.

The Son is subordinate to the Father, and the Spirit is subordinate to both the Son and the Father. He proceeded from the Father and was sent by the Son.

So, it's not the Son sending the Son from the Son. It's not the Father sending the Father from the Father. It's the Son sending the Spirit into our hearts from the Father.



So, Jesus is not His own Father. He is the Son of God the Father, Himself being God.



Oh how I love to proclaim Him as my Lord and my God! (John 20:28, Psalm 35:23)




Grace and Love
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#48
TRINITY... Dif. A co-eternal unity that none is before or after, but is co-equal in the Godhead. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, yet there is not three Gods but one.

This message serves as a public service announcement and is brought to you by courtesy of the Nicean Council.

Don't know about you, but someone failed in math!
1x1x1 eternal God = 1 eternal God.

Oh, you mean it has to be 1+1+1 = 3...because, you know, God is limited in His eternal nature. ;)

Oh, and philosophy rules over Scripture! :D



(and yes, I'm being sarcastic :) )


Grace and Love
 
J

Joe90

Guest
#49
Three persons, each person being God makes three Gods

Or

You have a multiple personality, schizophrenic God

Or

Language has lost its meaning.

If God is eternal, then the Son of God cannot be eternal God, because then he would not have a beginning.

Sons are the offspring of a father, not the father himself.

So by making the son the deity, you have made him God.

How can this be?

Especially since the Son died (and rose again of course) - God cannot die.
 
S

SantoSubito

Guest
#50
Three persons, each person being God makes three Gods

Or

You have a multiple personality, schizophrenic God

Or

Language has lost its meaning.

If God is eternal, then the Son of God cannot be eternal God, because then he would not have a beginning.

Sons are the offspring of a father, not the father himself.

So by making the son the deity, you have made him God.

How can this be?

Especially since the Son died (and rose again of course) - God cannot die.
Pretty simple. Christ's deity has no beginning nor end, but his human flesh had both a beginning (when He was conceived in Mary's womb) and an end.
 
Z

zackabba

Guest
#51
Three persons, each person being God makes three Gods

Or

You have a multiple personality, schizophrenic God

Or

Language has lost its meaning.

If God is eternal, then the Son of God cannot be eternal God, because then he would not have a beginning.

Sons are the offspring of a father, not the father himself.

So by making the son the deity, you have made him God.

How can this be?

Especially since the Son died (and rose again of course) - God cannot die.
Christ doesn't have a beginning. In His *humanity* He hoes, but not in His *divinity.*

Yes, the Son was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit, in that sense, brought Jesus here to earth.

"Sons are the offspring of a father, not the father himself."


You do know Jesus was born of a virgin, correct? Okay - so, He didn't have a human father - instead, God was truly His Father. So, yes, He's the offspring of the Father Himself. Who else would He be the offspring of?

So by making the son the deity, you have made him God.

Hey, I didn't make Him deity - God just reveals the Son as such in Scripture. "...and the Word was God...and the Word tabernacled among us..."

Especially since the Son died (and rose again of course) - God cannot die.

Let me ask you something - can a spirit die?
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#52
Luke 20

41 And He said to them, “How can they say that the Christ is the Son of David? 42 Now David himself said in the Book of Psalms:


‘ The LORD said to my Lord,

“ Sit at My right hand,
43 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’[h]
44 Therefore David calls Him ‘Lord’; how is He then his Son?”
 
J

Joe90

Guest
#53
"You do know Jesus was born of a virgin, correct? Okay - so, He didn't have a human father - instead, God was truly His Father. So, yes, He's the offspring of the Father Himself. Who else would He be the offspring of?"

Yes for sure I know he was virgin-born LOL. What I'm saying is that if the Father was deity, then that's God.

So if you make the Son deity, you've either made him his own Father or you have (at least) two gods.

...and the Word was God...and the Word tabernacled among us..."

If you make Jesus the Son of God, the Word, then you have two gods.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#54
or if you truly understood how Jesus was the SON of God and Immanuel

you would have GOD ALMIGHTY, Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords, King of Kings.
 
J

Joe90

Guest
#55
'or if you truly understood how Jesus was the SON of God and Immanuel '

Like I keep asking you all - explain to me please how the Son can be his own Father.

Unless you have two gods - which you trinitarians seem to deny.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#56
Joe what is the difference between you and your words?
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#57
1. Since the Holy Spirit begot Jesus through Mary, doesn't that mean He has to be God the Father of Jesus?

When the Bible uses "beget, begotten" specifically in the context of Jesus, it's referring to a metaphorical meaning and certainly not a literal meaning. It's never used in the context of the birth of Jesus. Also, it's important to note that the Bible does not teach that Mary and God the Father had any type of sexual relations whatsoever. The Father is indeed the Father of Jesus in terms of order, but not in terms of parenting Jesus.

2. When we call God a "He," who are we referring to? Is there are fourth person suggested by this?

For example, what if I say "I believe in God - I believe in Him." Who is the "Him" referring to? One or all of the persons of God, or the being of God?

Usually, the Trinity model has "God" in the middle, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in a Triangle around it. However, when we call God a "He," this is what it seems to suggest instead:

{-----------Son (person)
GOD (person?){ ------------Father (person)
{---------- Holy Spirit (person)


Or does it not?

In Deuteronomy 6:4 it says "Hear O'Israel the Lord is our God, the Lord is one". So this is the ultimate proclamation of God's oneness and unity. For example, You can say there is "one nation" or "one team". God in His being is one, but that doesn't mean that God is one person. The word for "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is the Hebrew word "echad", as some Chassidic Jewish Rabbis have put it, based on the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe "Echad, on the other hand, represents the fusion of diverse elements into an harmonious whole. The oneness of echad is not undermined by plurality; indeed, it employs plurality as the ingredients of unity." (Reference: Chabad.org) So, saying God is one does not exclude the idea of God being more than one Person, it just says that He is one being, in the sense of unity. As to when you call God singular pronouns, that's how we should speak about God. He is one, when I speak of "He" or "Him" I am speaking about the one only true God who is triune in nature.

3. When in Isaiah 53 God says that He will raise up His servant...who was speaking? Is the Father speaking now? Is the Son speaking about His servant (Himself?)?

In this context, I think we can agree it is the Father speaking and the Son being sent. However, the Father and Son are always in perfect agreement. We learn from the carmen christi, Philippians 2:5-11 that the Son who was in the form of God and equal with God (the Father) humbled Himself and came down in the form of a servant, even to the point of death on the cross.

4. If Jesus has the nature of God, how can He be "granted" to have life in Himself?

I recommend looking at Philippians 2:5-11 and studying it out. It speaks about Jesus who was equal with and in the form/nature of God and humbling Himself. The word "humble", "kenosis" in Greek means to empty ones self. So Jesus literally emptied Himself of all Godly attributes and was fully relying on the Father. As you notice that Jesus never performed a miracle until He was baptized with the Holy Spirit. John 17:5 speaks of the glory that Jesus shared with the Father before the world was. Jesus was praying to the Father to glorify Him with that glory which He had. (all the divine attributes He emptied Himself of).


5. If Jesus has the nature of God, why would He say "Not my will but yours be done?" Isn't His will God's will, since He is God incarnate? (not the Father but the Son.)

Just for clarification the usage of "God" in the New Testament primarily refers to the Father and "Lord" primarily refers to Jesus. There are many reasons why Jesus could have done this.. One reason could be that Jesus was teaching us something here that even if we don't want to do things that we must be humble and rather do what God wants. Sort of like a lesson for us rather than something Jesus was actually. Remember Jesus said "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." in John 6:38. So, you can simply read it just as it says.. That Jesus is not necessarily in disagreement with the Father but it shows the perfect harmony and love that they share. They don't have two separate interests or desires, Jesus is showing His unity with the Father to accomplish His perfect will. There are a number of other ways to interpret it, but I believe either of these interpretations could show that Jesus was not denying to be God in any sense.


6. If Jesus has the nature of God, why would He say "If you believe in Me, you do not believe in Me, but in Him who sent me?" How can you not believe in Jesus if He is God?

Jesus came to be a servant and glorify the Father. Going back to John 17 Jesus speaks about glorying the Father and how He did not receive His own glory on earth. Jesus glorifies the Father, the Father glorifies the Son and the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus, as we learn from John 16.


7. A more obvious question, why did the Son not know the day of His return? I know the argument that He laid aside divine rights when He took on human flesh - but how can you lay aside knowledge? I understand laying aside authority (which was given back to Him I guess when He came here...and when He went into heaven), but knowledge?

I wouldn't question God by asking "how" He could do something as if there are limitations as to what God can and cannot do. I would agree with that explanation that Jesus emptied Himself of His knowledge and divine attributes and that's why He did not know the hour. For a very detailed answer and a lot more information on the subject I would highly recommend looking at this article; The Lord Jesus: The Divine Son who is Superior to all Creation

8. Can I say "There is one God, the Father," as in 1 Corinthians 8:6, or must I say "There is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" Wasn't Paul excluding the Son and the Holy Spirit here?

I understand we could say "The Father is the one God." But can we say "the one God is the Father..."?

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6.. I think it's very important to not leave out "and one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are ALL things, and WE exist through Him".. A lot of scholars believe this is Paul's version of Deuteronomy 6:4 (called the Shema), One God and One Lord. God the Father and Lord Jesus. "Hear Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4).. It is true that the Father is the only true God (as John 17:3 says).. However, it's also true Jesus is the only true God and the Holy Spirit is the only true God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit = 1 true God. You can also say that they are equally all the one true God.


There are more questions I have, but this is suitable for now. Please understand - I really am trying to get a hold on this. Why is it so complicated? I have read much on the Trinity. I've listened to James White's debates, I've read Putting Jesus in His Place, I have tried to study the passages of Scripture with the little knowledge I have, I have done more - but just as the Trinity seems to be right, another question pops up in my head (and it usually goes unanswered).



Just try to answer the best you can - but please do it after praying and searching deeply. I don't want throw-off answers - this is serious. Don't even look at my age, just look at the questions.



Grace and Love
Great questions Zackabba, if any of my answers were unclear then please let me know and I will try to clarify the best I can.

Blessings to you in Jesus name.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#58
'or if you truly understood how Jesus was the SON of God and Immanuel '

Like I keep asking you all - explain to me please how the Son can be his own Father.

Unless you have two gods - which you trinitarians seem to deny.
Hi, Joe90-

Deity is a "what" (substance) and a "who" (identity). All historical Godhead models have been derived in an effort to maintain Monotheism while accounting for Jesus and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit. Traditionally, only two God-models maintain that Jesus is Deity by both substance and identity: Trinity and Oneness. Unfortunately, the process of orthodox formulation was primarily concerned with whether Jesus was created (Arian) or uncreated (Trinity) Deity.

Trinity "cheats" by representing three "whos" as one "who", with all being transcendent "whos". Oneness doesn't appropriately distinguish the "whos" while insisting on the "what".

I contend that Jesus IS the "what" and "who", but with this vital distinction: The Father is the Transcendent "what" and "who" and spoke forth His OWN "what" AS an Immanent "who". Transcendent God externalized the "what" and "who" of His divine substance and identity AS an Immanent Man by expressing the entire content of Himself by His spoken Word (Logos). This utterance brought forth all Immanent creation and God manifested His singular Transcendent substance and identity Immanently within creation. The Transcendent "what" and "who" spoke forth His "what" AS an Immanent "who", born from realm to realm as the Son; uncreated and conceived by the substance of Mary's faith believing the substance of God's Word delivered to her by the angel.

The Transcendent God's "what" and "who" became an Immanent "who" containing the Transcendent "what" of God. The human body was not divine; but it contained a human soul and spirit propagated by a Transcendent Father through a human mother. A spiritual (not bodily/sexual) procreation; the Immanent Son of the Transcendent Father, born by the breath (pneuma - spirit) of God.

One "what" and one "who"... Two realms. After physical death-resurrection-ascension, Jesus has inherited all that is the Father's because He fulfilled Sonship. This includes the very Spirit and Soul of God. Jesus is the eternal and external finite point of presence for God's transcendent omnipresence.

God embodied Himself in a glorified body. He descended to partake of created life that we might ascend to partake of uncreated life. The Logos divided asunder His Spirit out from Himself (His Soul) so that He might dwell in His temple not made with hands.

God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
 
N

Nalu

Guest
#59
The Gospel of John chapter 1, verses 1, 2 and 3, now skip down to the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 14.
Now lets go to the Gospel of John chapter 10 verse 30.

Lets take a quick look at 1 John chapter 4 verses 7 and 8.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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#60
The Gospel of John chapter 1, verses 1, 2 and 3, now skip down to the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 14.
Now lets go to the Gospel of John chapter 10 verse 30.

Lets take a quick look at 1 John chapter 4 verses 7 and 8.
Not real helpful in specifically determining God's constitution.

And love isn't always a namby-pamby wishy-washy free-for-all at the expense of truth. Discipline is love. Standing for truth is love.