Signs and wonders in comparison to the authority of scripture

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Must the Word of God be equipped with signs and wonders to be authoritive?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • No

    Votes: 12 70.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 3 17.6%
  • I do not know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
778
287
63
#21
Heb 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to (a)what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

All the differences in opinion is because of this. Many have drifted away from the truth.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
2,892
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60
#22
Scriptural evidence: (read all)

Heb 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to (a)what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved (b)unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just (c)penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? (d)After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various (e)miracles and by (f)gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

"Those who heard" weren't just apostles.

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and (h)signs among the people.

Stephen wasn't an apostle.

Acts 8:5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming (c)Christ to them. 6 The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the (d)signs which he was performing. 7 For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 So there was much rejoicing in that city.

PHilip wasn't an apostle, either.

1Cor 14:1 Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

The entire chapter is covers spiritual gifts to the church with prophecy being foremost, just like Acts 2 which plainly says ALL of the church will show the gift of prophecy.

1Cor 12:1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be unaware. 2You know that when you were [a]pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [c]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is [d]accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [e]by the Holy Spirit.
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith [f]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [g]healing [h]by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of [j]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [k]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He [l]wills.
12For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For [m]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


More teaching to the church that states that those baptized in the Holy Spirit will minister these gifts according to the needs in the church.

The problem here isn't for a lack of evidence, but rather for a lack of SEEKING.

As tor the "false" gifts.... are we not aware that the true church is outnumbered by false christians, teachers, prophets by at least a million to one & growing daily? It's not the church's fault they're everywhere.

"I can't find a real christian so-&-so". My advice to you is to look in the mirror, then get on your knees & pray to receive what God wants you to have, & believe.
Philip was an apostle. I only mention it so you may be more accurate.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
5,586
1,605
113
#23
When you think about it Jesus himself was a sign, a wonder, and also the word.
Signs are evidence of the truth...even Jesus said if you do not believe in me ...believe in the signs.
Not that your salvation comes from signs but seeing evidences that the word of God is true and will come to pass.
The word of GOD is powerful but without the signs how shall we proclaim. To many it just becomes a philosophy.
Jesus even told john of the signs which followed and pointed to him.
The apostles asked for signs. God demostrating his total control over the earth.
The sign of Jonah given by Jesus himself. We are to be known by signs to follow our walk with CHRIST.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
21,841
11,882
113
#24
In relation to the signs and wonders that Jesus did and of the Apostles, I have come across a teaching that states that the Word alone if not equipped with signs and wonders like Jesus portrayed and that of the Apostles then the Word will not be as effective as it could be.
This isn't directed at you, Roughsoul, but unfortunately, the thread title and OP are poorly worded. The words "accompanied by" fit the context far better, and frame the conversation much more sensibly, than "equipped with".

That said, we can never know what "could be"... in this case or in any other where human decisions are involved.

Some people get saved with just hearing or reading God's word. Some people get saved after a demonstration of God's power. Some people get saved through a combination of the two. Is one person "more saved" than any other? No.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,806
3,516
113
#26
In relation to the signs and wonders that Jesus did and of the Apostles, I have come across a teaching that states that the Word alone if not equipped with signs and wonders like Jesus portrayed and that of the Apostles then the Word will not be as effective as it could be.

As to not muddy the water, I'll hold my opinion.
The word of God stands, yet signs and wonders follow the word of God to Confirm and testify 1. The resurrection of Jesus Acts 4:33.
2. The Power of the Gospel is the word of God Romans 11:16.
The preaching of the word of God should produce :

those being saved, healed and delivered. = Salvation = Sozo= Saved Through the lord Jesus Christ
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
1,417
763
113
#27
I was a believer before I witnessed my first miracle. So, the Word in me produced the expected result.

I believed because I heard the word of the one sent to me.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"


With that being said, God might also accompany preaching with the miraculous. When I am sent, I have no preference either way. What is more common than not is that I will be given a word of knowledge about a person I have never met: I will know their thoughts or life experiences or secrets. God allows me to speak these things to them as evidence to the person that God knows them.

 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,427
4,195
113
#28
Jesus said:
John 14:12, KJV: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
We don't stop preaching because there are false teachers, nor should we hold back the Holy Spirit presenting signs and wonders, because of false ones.
Why would we drink poison, that's erroneous. But as a couple I recently watched said, when they preach in foreign countries they know they are protected from bad water. Also, the Word confirms that to be so. There are miracle meetings happening where people are jumping out of wheelchairs, healed of cancer and other ailments, in Jesus name. Insane people are being delivered of possession and people are over-joyed in love with Jesus. I wouldn't want to deny the Holy Spirit's blessings.
I'm not arguing against miracles today. Some believe the Word has to be equipped with signs and wonders to be legit.

Like the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit.

This making any preaching without signs and wonders not authoritative. Or at least this is how I understand it.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,427
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#29
I believe within textual criticism the best method is the critical text. All manuscripts from every period of time should be evaluated and compare old to newer. Closer to the originals the better.

This verse sounds so out of place.

18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them

People preach tongues and healing but why not this?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,427
4,195
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#30
I've met people who won't believe the gospel unless they knew it was true with proof. I guess there are tens of thousands of ideologies in the world that say they are true and can't prove it. People are really that confused, they don't know what to believe. Signs, miracles, wonders would definitely add weight to the gospel and that's why they were used in the Bible.
But the Bible is true on evidence alone even without signs. Signs are just further assurance.


John 20:29
English Standard Version


29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
1,417
763
113
#31
I wonder, and I'm just adding my thoughts here, if the word spoken out of turn or by the wrong person would produce any result... or any lasting result.

So much of what passes as evangelism today is simply a cognitive exercise in deduction: "sinner's prayer", "Roman Road", etc. Or, perhaps a conversion based on emotions.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,057
417
83
#32
In relation to the signs and wonders that Jesus did and of the Apostles, I have come across a teaching that states that the Word alone if not equipped with signs and wonders like Jesus portrayed and that of the Apostles then the Word will not be as effective as it could be.

As to not muddy the water, I'll hold my opinion.
For me.....Before there was the NT Christ said these signs shall follow them that believe. Peter and John at the gate beautiful said to the man that looked at them expecting something.. no silver no gold but what I do have give I unto you.. in Jesus name. Then after that the people were looking at them as if they did .They said why do you look at us as if we did this by our own power? Its that name faith in that name that healed this man.

See they never had to ask the Father or Jesus to do anything. That authority that power was already given. The right to use His name. Its faith in that name. So that word is Him. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you..

We tend to read about sheep and goats and apply that to groups we know today. Yet those are not the ones He was talking about. I don't believe I will be there. They did many wonders yet Christ never knew them. How can this be? That name...faith in that name did it. See there can be a false teacher up there but the people believe in that name they came for Christ. So some get healed and delivered so forth so on. And everything in that word where GOD SAID it will always happen.. by faith. Never have to ask for something God said. These signs shall follow them that believe. There is no asking here.. its already been given. I give you power/authority over the enemy. We never have to ask for that power that authority its already been given. How we live comes into play here. If we doubt.. then what He said will also happen that.. if we doubt were like a ship tossed back and forth let not that man think he will get anything from God.

Yet if we know KNOW He hears us then we now we have the petitions we asked for. His will is His word. We ask according to His word.

For me God always backs up what He says does by His word. Signs wonders and His word.. are one if that makes sense...its what I believe
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#33
I believe within textual criticism the best method is the critical text. All manuscripts from every period of time should be evaluated and compare old to newer. Closer to the originals the better.

This verse sounds so out of place.

18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them

People preach tongues and healing but why not this?
Acts 19:11

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul"

I believe that "special miracles", such as healings, were done by the apostles. These must not have been typical for all believers throughout history because they were "special."

The reason was to give credence to the gospel and doctrines until that which was perfect/ complete was written to be circulated to the churches.

I've heard pastors repeat what their commentaries told them, including my former evangelical pastor, concerning the end of Mark "not in the originals." I was asking, why then does his translations sell them with those verses if the critical text doesn't contain it?

Less than 1% of the manuscripts are missing that page. The Biblical linguist I posted gives but one reason why I agree that all of Mark's gospel was truly inspired as contained in my English translation.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
268
42
28
#34
In relation to the signs and wonders that Jesus did and of the Apostles, I have come across a teaching that states that the Word alone if not equipped with signs and wonders like Jesus portrayed and that of the Apostles then the Word will not be as effective as it could be.

As to not muddy the water, I'll hold my opinion.
2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

Of course at the end of the world (last person God plans to save is saved) there will be signs in the sun and moon.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
3,760
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#35
I believe within textual criticism the best method is the critical text. All manuscripts from every period of time should be evaluated and compare old to newer. Closer to the originals the better.

This verse sounds so out of place.

18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them

People preach tongues and healing but why not this?
Unfortunately, there is a small Pentecostal sect that does misapply one verse out of context. You've probably heard of the snake handling churches. There have always been churches who take verses out of context and plenty of cults will base their primary dogmas upon a small minority of verses wrested out of context. That shouldn't affect the credibility of it's existence though.

There were various times in history when obvious miracles and signs were done by God and shown to multitudes. We look at the time when Moses confronted Pharaoh. There were special miracles to prove that Moses spoke on behalf of the LORD God. God still performs miracles, but He chooses to not perform those particular ones. I asked myself why that is a number of times. I think I know now.

When the Apostles carried out the great commission, there was only the O.T. available. Why should multitudes of people trust anything these Preachers said?
1. They used the Scriptures they had available just as Jesus used....Moses and the prophets. OT.
2. Much like Jesus, they were seeing many healed at their meetings. Israel already had plenty of reasons to believe the teachings of the Messiah/ Christ. They had plenty of reason to believe the teaching of the Apostles too. It did not contradict the OT. Noble churches like those in Berea searched the Scriptures they had to evaluate the truth of the apostles' teaching. With them, it wasn't a matter of needing to see any signs or wonders.

You mentioned verse 18. If the critical text translators and publishers don't believe that verse, should they not be honest and exclude them from their bibles? I think so.

I might be in the minority, but I don't believe that it is an isolated passage: Perhaps because I'm not in the minority. I believe the T.R. as it was not trusting a manuscript or two...(Critical Text.) It used the Majority of texts.. We see that verse to be true in one of Paul's experiences.

There are dozens of examples of God miraculously protecting his people in the O.T. He confirms the end of Mark's gospel in Acts 28:1-11

"
  1. And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita.
  2. 2 And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold.
  3. 3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
  4. 4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
  5. 5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
  6. 6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
  7. 7 In the same quarters were possessions of the chief man of the island, whose name was Publius; who received us, and lodged us three days courteously.
  8. 8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.
  9. 9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:
  10. 10 Who also honoured us with many honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary.
  11. 11 And after three months we departed in a ship of Alexandria, which had wintered in the isle, whose sign was Castor and Pollux."
This was perhaps a sea snake that took shelter from the storm on the shore as some species are known to do. Drop for drop, sea snakes have some of the most potent venom in the world. Any other time, these people were used to seeing the bite victim die. Paul did not because God miraculously intervened. He used the opportunity to doubtless lead many of these pagans on the island to Christ.

We see the passage at the end of Mark make a lot of sense IMHO. I believe that God still can and often does protect His servants. I've experienced many miracles of healing and protection. I have rough drafts of books filled with those events. If I ever have children, I hope that their faith will be strengthened by the answers to prayers and miracles in those books. However, they won't need miracles to confirm God's Word, because they will be taught the Bible from the start and never turned over to the heathen schools.
Even strangers come to know Christ as their Savior when I witness to them. Why?
The Holy Spirit Who lives within me performs His ministry (John 16:8-11). Also, The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

☕🙂👍📖
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,427
4,195
113
#36
Acts 19:11

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul"

I believe that "special miracles", such as healings, were done by the apostles. These must not have been typical for all believers throughout history because they were "special."

The reason was to give credence to the gospel and doctrines until that which was perfect/ complete was written to be circulated to the churches.

I've heard pastors repeat what their commentaries told them, including my former evangelical pastor, concerning the end of Mark "not in the originals." I was asking, why then does his translations sell them with those verses if the critical text doesn't contain it?

Less than 1% of the manuscripts are missing that page. The Biblical linguist I posted gives but one reason why I agree that all of Mark's gospel was truly inspired as contained in my English translation.
Majority text doesn't mean that is the correct translation. Typically you try to get as close to the time of the originals.

Not all translations include it either.

Despite that though other than the snakes verse. It simply repeats what is already spoken in gospel itself. Scribes would often tag or repeat lines to premote an important transition or teaching.

It also doesn't imply the scribes did right by doing this. This is why many verses were removed from the KJV due to scribe repetitiveness.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
3,760
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#37
Majority text doesn't mean that is the correct translation. Typically you try to get as close to the time of the originals.

Not all translations include it either.

Despite that though other than the snakes verse. It simply repeats what is already spoken in gospel itself. Scribes would often tag or repeat lines to premote an important transition or teaching.

It also doesn't imply the scribes did right by doing this. This is why many verses were removed from the KJV due to scribe repetitiveness.
The "oldest and best claim" is but a claim by a man with questionable motives, Tischendorf. It's been repeated by those who publish the versions based on the Sinaiticus. You are welcome to use those and take a pair of scissors to that page in Mark, but I don't buy his story. The pages were reported by witnesses as " snow white vellum." That's surprising considering oxidation over the period of time that Tischendorf claimed. One of the times Tischendorf took them, the ones he had came back yellowed as if painted with tea.

One of the oldest Bibles in my library was in the best condition. It was the Living Bible.
I say was, because it was not worth my time reading and was just taking up space. Right now, I'm going through my previous KJV and transferring the special answers to prayer and notations that the Holy Spirit led me to or brought to remembrance. For instance, I prayed for a wife and children who would grow to love the Lord and praise Him in songs with me. Right afterwards, I opened my KJV Bible exactly to Ecclesiastes 9:9 and He brought my eyes to the phrase, "Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest."
I don't know who she is yet, but I accept that as a direct answer from the Lord. As much as my former pastor, who had good intentions, and all of the commentators did what they could to shake my faith, I continue to trust God's Word in my English translation.
I'm transferring those answers to prayer to the margins of my latest Bible because the other one, previously newest, is worn out.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
21,841
11,882
113
#38
Acts 19:11

"And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul"

I believe that "special miracles", such as healings, were done by the apostles. These must not have been typical for all believers throughout history because they were "special."

The reason was to give credence to the gospel and doctrines until that which was perfect/ complete was written to be circulated to the churches.

I've heard pastors repeat what their commentaries told them, including my former evangelical pastor, concerning the end of Mark "not in the originals." I was asking, why then does his translations sell them with those verses if the critical text doesn't contain it?

Less than 1% of the manuscripts are missing that page. The Biblical linguist I posted gives but one reason why I agree that all of Mark's gospel was truly inspired as contained in my English translation.
Your post betrays a rather hypocritical approach to signs and wonders. You assert that the longer ending of Mark is original, but claim that 1 Corinthians 13:10 refers to the completed canon of Scripture.

The text states that God wrought special miracles... nowhere in Scripture is it hinted that healings were "special miracles". God is still healing today, as He has been since Jesus walked the earth.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
21,841
11,882
113
#39
I believe the T.R. as it was not trusting a manuscript or two...(Critical Text.) It used the Majority of texts.. We see that verse to be true in one of Paul's experiences.
Your criticism of the Critical text is actually unfounded here. The TR was based on a mere handful of late manuscripts... even though the majority of manuscripts discovered since are consistent with them. There was no such thing as the 'majority text' in the 1500's.
 
Dec 21, 2022
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#40
Wow! That is Fascinating! I know those words are supposed to be in there.
I have been bit 3 times by poisonous snakes. 1 water moccasin and 2 times by copperheads. The second time it was that scripture that came to my heart and the LORD completely healed me!

We will need to believe GOD in the days that are coming...