Signs as tools of wondering?
- Thread starter garee
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Still waiting for the first time . Perhaps you can remind me. 1 Corinthians 14?
Seems plain enough to me. They saw what they did when the Holy Spirit worked in them to both will and empower them to do the good pleasure of God and those faithless men called the apostles gods in the likeness of corrupted men. Seems obvious they did not mix faith the eternal in what they saw and heard the temporal .
No gospel understanding for them who literalize the signified understanding.
I have not heard any Christians today calling Paul, Mercury the god of communication. Or Barnabas, Jupiter, the god of the sky, the father figure. How many gods are there? The Catholics have made Peter into a god in the likeness of men .Are you Catholic?
Acts14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: (the gospel) who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
Seems plain enough to me. They saw what they did when the Holy Spirit worked in them to both will and empower them to do the good pleasure of God and those faithless men called the apostles gods in the likeness of corrupted men. Seems obvious they did not mix faith the eternal in what they saw and heard the temporal .
No gospel understanding for them who literalize the signified understanding.
I have not heard any Christians today calling Paul, Mercury the god of communication. Or Barnabas, Jupiter, the god of the sky, the father figure. How many gods are there? The Catholics have made Peter into a god in the likeness of men .Are you Catholic?
Acts14: 7-12 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: (the gospel) who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.
If you want to be stubborn and dense, that's your choice; I won't join you there. I have demonstrated several times with Scripture that "signs" are NOT only for the rebellious. Your obsession with 1 Corinthians 14 isn't relevant.
You're mixing up the events in Acts 14, which took place in Lystra, with those in Acts 15, which took place in Jerusalem.
The plain text of the Bible tells us the truth of the gospel.
Irrelevant.
You're mixing up the events in Acts 14, which took place in Lystra, with those in Acts 15, which took place in Jerusalem.
The plain text of the Bible tells us the truth of the gospel.
Irrelevant.
No, garee, it's not there. Nowhere in Scripture do we read that there were "wars, rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes all over the corrupted dying creation" in days of Noah.
What we have is you conflating what is written in Matt 24:6-7 with what is written in Matt 24:37.
You lack faith in Scripture so you add what you believe and end up with imagination of men.
Nope.
Sign ...
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
When the sign is seen ... flee into the mountains (vs 16) ... no going into the house to gather belongings, just go (vs 17-18) ... why? ... because then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (vs 21).
Sign ...
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So after the sign of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, there will be another sign ... the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
Sign ...
Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
So, again, your assertion that "the last sign was the sign of Jonas" fails.
You just make stuff up and when your error is pointed out to you and proper interpretation of Scripture is provided, you refuse it. That is a "sign", garee. It points to your utter and complete lack of faith.
In Acts 15, they did not keep silent. Read the whole chapter. Paul and Barnabas were ministers to the gentile believers. There were certain of the sect of the pharisees who were believers who insisted that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:5). The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter (Acts 15:6).
They had a discussion ... a debate ... almost like a court hearing ... and made a decision concerning gentile believers:
Acts 15:
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
...
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
The multitude having "kept silence" was so they could give "audience to Barnabas and Paul". The keeping silent had nothing to do with making "the apostles into gods in the likeness of men" as you claim. Each side kept silent as the other side made their case. And then the matter was decided.
What we have is you conflating what is written in Matt 24:6-7 with what is written in Matt 24:37.
You lack faith in Scripture so you add what you believe and end up with imagination of men.
Nope.
Sign ...
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
When the sign is seen ... flee into the mountains (vs 16) ... no going into the house to gather belongings, just go (vs 17-18) ... why? ... because then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (vs 21).
Sign ...
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So after the sign of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and the great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, there will be another sign ... the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
Sign ...
Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
So, again, your assertion that "the last sign was the sign of Jonas" fails.
You just make stuff up and when your error is pointed out to you and proper interpretation of Scripture is provided, you refuse it. That is a "sign", garee. It points to your utter and complete lack of faith.
In Acts 15, they did not keep silent. Read the whole chapter. Paul and Barnabas were ministers to the gentile believers. There were certain of the sect of the pharisees who were believers who insisted that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:5). The apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter (Acts 15:6).
They had a discussion ... a debate ... almost like a court hearing ... and made a decision concerning gentile believers:
Acts 15:
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
...
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
The multitude having "kept silence" was so they could give "audience to Barnabas and Paul". The keeping silent had nothing to do with making "the apostles into gods in the likeness of men" as you claim. Each side kept silent as the other side made their case. And then the matter was decided.
Acts 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Not wrought after Paul and Barnabas . God is not serve by corrupted flesh and blood of dying mankind.
You are not taking into account there is a world of difference between signs , and sign and wonders or sign that cause wondering, marveling . Signs that make a person wonder.. not coming to faith, the end of the matter. Lying wonders.
Acts 14 shows them who did attribute the unseen work of the gospel to the hands of corrupted flesh and blood . . making the apostles into gods in the likeness of men
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Not wrought after Paul and Barnabas . God is not serve by corrupted flesh and blood of dying mankind.
You are not taking into account there is a world of difference between signs , and sign and wonders or sign that cause wondering, marveling . Signs that make a person wonder.. not coming to faith, the end of the matter. Lying wonders.
Acts 14 shows them who did attribute the unseen work of the gospel to the hands of corrupted flesh and blood . . making the apostles into gods in the likeness of men
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
That verse is Acts 15:12 ... and I have explained to you what was going on. Read from verse 1 to verse 23 and quit cherry-picking verses in order to support your unScriptural assertion.
You are not taking into account that there has always been and always will be people who believe and people who do not believe. The people who believe and see the signs are not going to "wonder.. not coming to faith". They are going to see the sign, they are going to continue in faith and, in fact, grow stronger in faith.
Consider the signs in Matt 24 ... some will see the sign mentioned in vs 15 and they will flee to the mountains without delay ... some will see the sign mentioned in vss 29-30 and they will be gathered by the angels from the four winds (vs 31) ... some will see the sign mentioned in vss 32-33 and they will watch as instructed in vs 42 and be ready as instructed in vs 44.
Others will see the signs mentioned in those verses and they will be deceived by the false prophets of vs 24 ... they will mourn as shown in vs 30 ... they shall continue eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage as shown in vs 38 ... they shall not watch nor shall they be ready and they will be appointed their portion with the hypocrites and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (vs 51).
Paul and Barnabas did not come after the working of satan. Paul and Barnabas preached the gospel (Acts 14:7).
You are not taking into account that there has always been and always will be people who believe and people who do not believe. The people who believe and see the signs are not going to "wonder.. not coming to faith". They are going to see the sign, they are going to continue in faith and, in fact, grow stronger in faith.
Consider the signs in Matt 24 ... some will see the sign mentioned in vs 15 and they will flee to the mountains without delay ... some will see the sign mentioned in vss 29-30 and they will be gathered by the angels from the four winds (vs 31) ... some will see the sign mentioned in vss 32-33 and they will watch as instructed in vs 42 and be ready as instructed in vs 44.
Others will see the signs mentioned in those verses and they will be deceived by the false prophets of vs 24 ... they will mourn as shown in vs 30 ... they shall continue eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage as shown in vs 38 ... they shall not watch nor shall they be ready and they will be appointed their portion with the hypocrites and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (vs 51).
Paul and Barnabas did not come after the working of satan. Paul and Barnabas preached the gospel (Acts 14:7).
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Signs that follow as metaphors a person has believed. Like the new tongue the gospel. It cast out lying spirits .They will not be affected by the poison of false prophecy coming from a brood of vipers (the Pharisees with Sadducees ) .
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;. . . . (the gospel)
Not sign needed cause a person to wonder. . . when, where, what will it look, like how many . They are the kind natural unconverted mankind( the evil generation) seeks after .They have no faith coming from the scripture .None, not little.
They are recognized as Charismatics what they call "outward signs gifts" . The same kind that made Jesus into a circus seal .Do a miracle then we will believe. . . exercise faith .We will not believe in a God not seen. And yet for all that they continue to mock God make a senseless sounds and fall backwards to show they under the judgment of God.
Spiritual gifts unseen yes .Sign gifts self edifying. . .(I did it it proves something). . . no.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
No faith coming from the scriptures by which we believe and then understand the things not seen. Big difference.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
In respect to Acts 14 I did not say they came after a lying wonder of Satan .Its what the faithless crowd perceived .They did not "mix faith" in what was seen or heard .They simply literalized away the parable. Not receiving the gospel understanding. Not yoked with Christ.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;. . . . (the gospel)
Not sign needed cause a person to wonder. . . when, where, what will it look, like how many . They are the kind natural unconverted mankind( the evil generation) seeks after .They have no faith coming from the scripture .None, not little.
They are recognized as Charismatics what they call "outward signs gifts" . The same kind that made Jesus into a circus seal .Do a miracle then we will believe. . . exercise faith .We will not believe in a God not seen. And yet for all that they continue to mock God make a senseless sounds and fall backwards to show they under the judgment of God.
Spiritual gifts unseen yes .Sign gifts self edifying. . .(I did it it proves something). . . no.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
No faith coming from the scriptures by which we believe and then understand the things not seen. Big difference.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
In respect to Acts 14 I did not say they came after a lying wonder of Satan .Its what the faithless crowd perceived .They did not "mix faith" in what was seen or heard .They simply literalized away the parable. Not receiving the gospel understanding. Not yoked with Christ.
Sadly, you are just displaying your ignorance, confusion, and misunderstanding regarding signs and wonders in the Bible. The problem is compounded by your wacky belief that you don't need instruction, when plainly, you do. There is no help for a person who refuses to learn but insists on arguing the content and message of the Bible. Read Proverbs: the one who refuses to learn is called a fool.
The signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 are just as valid as the signs Jesus spoke of in Mark 16. Your claim that Mark 16 negates or nullifies all other signs is unsupported in Scripture.
The signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 have yet to come to pass.
When the sign spoken of in Matt 24:15, 29-30, 32-33 come to pass ...
the believers will flee to the mountains ... believers will rejoice at the sight of Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory ... believers will watch and be ready
the unbelievers will not flee to the mountains ... unbelievers will mourn ... unbelievers will continue on and will not watch nor will they be ready.
Did you know that every time you see a rainbow, you are witnessing a sign from God?
Genesis 9:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token [Hebrew 'owth ... a sign] of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
garee, there have been believers and unbelievers all throughout the history of mankind and there have been signs given by God throughout the history of mankind. believers believe and have faith in God ... unbelievers do not believe and they ridicule those who believe and they downplay God's signs ... even to the point of denial that there are signs from God (kind of like what you're doing, garee ... hmmm).
The signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 have yet to come to pass.
When the sign spoken of in Matt 24:15, 29-30, 32-33 come to pass ...
the believers will flee to the mountains ... believers will rejoice at the sight of Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory ... believers will watch and be ready
the unbelievers will not flee to the mountains ... unbelievers will mourn ... unbelievers will continue on and will not watch nor will they be ready.
Did you know that every time you see a rainbow, you are witnessing a sign from God?
Genesis 9:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token [Hebrew 'owth ... a sign] of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
garee, there have been believers and unbelievers all throughout the history of mankind and there have been signs given by God throughout the history of mankind. believers believe and have faith in God ... unbelievers do not believe and they ridicule those who believe and they downplay God's signs ... even to the point of denial that there are signs from God (kind of like what you're doing, garee ... hmmm).