So, I'm full of anti-wof talking points, prejudice and misinformed?
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Did someone say Jesus became Satan? I haven't yet read all comments here, but that certainly is not something I believe.
Bronze does symbolize judgement. It was judgement on the serpent that released the Israelites and they were healed. Am in agreement with your post.
Thank you also for discussion. I appreciate this.
Bronze does symbolize judgement. It was judgement on the serpent that released the Israelites and they were healed. Am in agreement with your post.
Thank you also for discussion. I appreciate this.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Vitalize is the definition of the word quicken.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
How do you see these scriptures Wolf? What do they speak?
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Vitalize is the definition of the word quicken.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
How do you see these scriptures Wolf? What do they speak?
Oh lancelot, lancelot, this is really sad the way you think you understand not only the Scriptures but the meaning of the Apostle's Creed. From what you conclude you must be a "literalist." This means you understand words/statements "literally" with no room for undrstanding how language works, grammar or even metaphors.
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
This was sent to my email this morning from another Christian., I'm in total agreement:
Lanceot is giving good reasons for healing and people always say for others to go to a hospital and empty it out if healing is for today and it is God's will. This shows a complete mis-understanding of healing and how it comes. By our personal faith, the faith of others and sometimes by the gifts of the Holy Spirit as "He" wills.
The absolute fact is - unbelief in what God has promised will stop us from obtaining our inheritance that is ours in Christ while in this earth. Wandering in the wilderness for 40 years is a type of this from the Old Testament.
If Jesus was around ministering today - some of us in the body of Christ would be attacking Him saying: "He is telling us that we don't have enough faith and that we are in unbelief."
Here are the scriptures where Jesus spoke about people are their unbelief and lack of faith. Mark 6:6 ; Mark 16:14 ( here Jesus reproached them for their unbelief - some of today's Christian would rip Him apart for what He said. )
Here are the scriptures that Jesus told people that they had little faith. Matt. 6:30 ; Matt. 8:26, ; Matt. 14:31; Matt. 16:8 ; Mark 4:40 ; Luke 8:25
In Matt. 17:20 Jesus said that they couldn't bring about healing because of their little faith. Imagine how some in the body of Christ would rip Him over the coals and call Him all kinds of foul slanderous names for telling them - they have such little faith and so nothing was manifested to them?
Lanceot is giving good reasons for healing and people always say for others to go to a hospital and empty it out if healing is for today and it is God's will. This shows a complete mis-understanding of healing and how it comes. By our personal faith, the faith of others and sometimes by the gifts of the Holy Spirit as "He" wills.
The absolute fact is - unbelief in what God has promised will stop us from obtaining our inheritance that is ours in Christ while in this earth. Wandering in the wilderness for 40 years is a type of this from the Old Testament.
If Jesus was around ministering today - some of us in the body of Christ would be attacking Him saying: "He is telling us that we don't have enough faith and that we are in unbelief."
Here are the scriptures where Jesus spoke about people are their unbelief and lack of faith. Mark 6:6 ; Mark 16:14 ( here Jesus reproached them for their unbelief - some of today's Christian would rip Him apart for what He said. )
Here are the scriptures that Jesus told people that they had little faith. Matt. 6:30 ; Matt. 8:26, ; Matt. 14:31; Matt. 16:8 ; Mark 4:40 ; Luke 8:25
In Matt. 17:20 Jesus said that they couldn't bring about healing because of their little faith. Imagine how some in the body of Christ would rip Him over the coals and call Him all kinds of foul slanderous names for telling them - they have such little faith and so nothing was manifested to them?
I'll say it again just for clarity. Not all of us will agree about healing in the atonement or about how healing comes about.., or about many other interpretations like Paul's thorn in the flesh... I believe the thorn in his flesh was annoying people following him around trying to undo the good work Paul was doing in the churches.., not blindness or some such other sickness.
Not everyone has to have the same opinion about the name of the holding place for the saints before Jesus died on the cross and rose again. I do not believe Jesus suffered at all AFTER the cross. But I'm not going to fight about it. I believe we will learn these truths as we read the Bible and look at Jesus as being "Perfect Theology"
Not everyone has to have the same opinion about the name of the holding place for the saints before Jesus died on the cross and rose again. I do not believe Jesus suffered at all AFTER the cross. But I'm not going to fight about it. I believe we will learn these truths as we read the Bible and look at Jesus as being "Perfect Theology"
Oh lancelot, lancelot, this is really sad the way you think you understand not only the Scriptures but the meaning of the Apostle's Creed. From what you conclude you must be a "literalist." This means you understand words/statements "literally" with no room for undrstanding how language works, grammar or even metaphors.
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death." https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/christdecended.html
So how is it heresy for WoF but not for Calvin? True, creeds aren't scripture. So then why do we have them? Because leaders throughout church history realized that they needed to establish and codify their essential beliefs and refute error and heresies, as I'm sure you know. You seem to want to be the one who decides what is essential and what is heresy, but the church has always sought a consensus on these things. That's why almost all churches and denominations have a statement of faith. Can you produce for us a statement of faith or creed that condemns the WoF teaching on this? If there is one, I'm sure it's relatively new (less than 40 years old), because I haven't been able to locate one, and I've been looking for a quarter of a century since Christianity in Crisis was published.
As for Copeland, I don't agree with that statement. I don't even agree with Kenneth Hagin's view on this. But again the question was "is it heresy"?
As for Jesus being separated from God the Father on the cross, allow me to quote Billy Graham on this.
[FONT="]"The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell." https://billygraham.org/answer/did-god-really-forsake-jesus-when-he-was-dying-on-the-cross/
[/FONT][FONT="]I didn't just fall off the theological turnip truck, bluto. I've been at this a long time, and you're condescension doesn't phase me at all.
BTW, thank you for your service. It was a crappy war and I hate what our government did to you guys. I salute you.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
Well, romans 8,10 says that our earthly body will die, because of the sin. Although Jesus lives in us.
Romabs 8, 11 says that the same who ressuractet Jesus to live will ressurauct us to life, too. And romans 8, 12 - 13 says that we should not live after the flesh, but after the Spirit, because a fleshly life brings death.
Romabs 8, 11 says that the same who ressuractet Jesus to live will ressurauct us to life, too. And romans 8, 12 - 13 says that we should not live after the flesh, but after the Spirit, because a fleshly life brings death.
You know joaniemarie why is it that you keep bringing up "healing in the atonement" on this thread when that is not the subject we are discussing? You also keep agreeing with lancelot here (which is your right) but what is your personal opinion on this issue of Jesus being tortured in hell by Satan and then Jesus having to be born again in hell in order to defeat Satan? This is "NOT" a "Can everybody get along issue" joaniemarie. And when lancelot says none of this is heresy, he is right, it's worse, it's BLASPHEMY. Please read the following.
JESUS -- BORN AGAIN WHILE SUFFERING UNDER SATAN'S TORTURERS IN HELL -- HERESY You should know there are literally hundreds of sights that challeng these wof teachers and teachings. Wake up! There is a real world out there and I'm reminded what the Apostle Paul said at Acts 20:27-31, "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. vs28, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in AMONG YOU not sparing the flock, vs30, and FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw the disciples ater them. vs31, Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I DID NOT CEASE TO ADMONISH EACH ONE WITH TEARS."
In other words, Paul is telling us that the church will not only be attacked from without but also from within. So who do you think these people/WOLVES are within the church trying to lure people away to follow them? You know what else is really interesting about all of this?
At 2 Timothy2:15-18 the Apostle Paul writes, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed handling accurately the word of truth. vs16, But avoid wordly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodleness. vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth (how did they go astray?) saying that the resurrection has already taken place and thus they upset the faith of some."
My point is the fact that the Apostle Paul was upset because a couple of guys was telling everybody the resurrection had already taken place. As if that is not bad enough can you imagine what he would have said to those wof teachers that teach Jesus Christ went to hell itself and was tortured by Satan and his minions resulting in Jesus being born again in hell? What utter blasphemy. Again I say wake up.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
JESUS -- BORN AGAIN WHILE SUFFERING UNDER SATAN'S TORTURERS IN HELL -- HERESY You should know there are literally hundreds of sights that challeng these wof teachers and teachings. Wake up! There is a real world out there and I'm reminded what the Apostle Paul said at Acts 20:27-31, "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. vs28, Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in AMONG YOU not sparing the flock, vs30, and FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw the disciples ater them. vs31, Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I DID NOT CEASE TO ADMONISH EACH ONE WITH TEARS."
In other words, Paul is telling us that the church will not only be attacked from without but also from within. So who do you think these people/WOLVES are within the church trying to lure people away to follow them? You know what else is really interesting about all of this?
At 2 Timothy2:15-18 the Apostle Paul writes, "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed handling accurately the word of truth. vs16, But avoid wordly and empty chatter for it will lead to further ungodleness. vs17, and their talk will spread like gangrene Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, vs18, men who have gone astray from the truth (how did they go astray?) saying that the resurrection has already taken place and thus they upset the faith of some."
My point is the fact that the Apostle Paul was upset because a couple of guys was telling everybody the resurrection had already taken place. As if that is not bad enough can you imagine what he would have said to those wof teachers that teach Jesus Christ went to hell itself and was tortured by Satan and his minions resulting in Jesus being born again in hell? What utter blasphemy. Again I say wake up.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Except the person has not grasped the gist of the conversation. No one has said healing doesn't happen today. The argument was, and is, over whether it is ALWAYS His will to heal every physical malady. The debate was over that and was over the poor teaching that if you are sick and remain unhealed, the fault is yours because you just don't have enough trust to be healed.
No one has said God doesn't heal.
No one has said God doesn't heal.
D
Oh lancelot, lancelot, this is really sad the way you think you understand not only the Scriptures but the meaning of the Apostle's Creed. From what you conclude you must be a "literalist." This means you understand words/statements "literally" with no room for undrstanding how language works, grammar or even metaphors.
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I'll give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said He was the "bread of life" does that mean Jesus is literally a loaf of bread? Of course not? Regarding the Apostle's Creed which btw was not formulated by any of the Apostles how could Jesus have literally go into hell when on that cross He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commed My Spirit." (I suppose you think God the Father has hands huh?)
Now, you also said, "No, I don't think the teaching that Jesus suffered in hell violates any essentials of the faith unless you can show me a creed that says anything about it etc." News flash lancelot, creeds are NOT Sciputure. In fact I'll bet you don't even know the purpose of Creeds? Here is some more of what kenneth copeland stated on one of his audio tapes which I have. "What Happened from the Cross to the Throne" (Fort Worth, TX: 1990 audiotape #02-0017, side 2).
The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at the moment that He did so, He cried, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon the instruction of God, raised a serpent up on that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, "why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb up on that pole?" And the Lord said, "Because it was the sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross." He said, "I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death, and the light was turned off."[SUP] 4[/SUP] Do you agree with this? But wait lancelot, it gets even better because here is what else copeland said that God Himself told him.
"The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, "Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don't let your tradition trip you up." He said, "Think this way: a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain." And I three my Bible down, like that, and I said, "What?" He said, "A born-again man defeated Satan, the firsborn of many brethren defeated him. He said, "You are the very image and the very copy of that one." I said, "Goodness, gracious sakes alive!" And I began to see what had gone on in there. And I said, "Well now y ou don't mean, you couldn't dare mean that I could have done that same thing?" He said, "Oh yeah. If you'd had the same knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could've done the same thing, 'cause you're a reborn man too." (Kenneth Copeland, "Substitution and Identification 1989, tape #00-0202, side 2.)
So lancelot, do you really believe God Almighty through the Holy Spirit told this "blasphemy" to copeland? Or perhaps it was somebody else who put this in copeland's heart? I also find it interesting that you never once addressed anything in my post to you except to give more of you talking points, why is that?
Now, on to something else you said in another post of yours. You said God the Father forsook His Son on that cross which is taken from Matthew 27:46. I don't think so and I base this on Scripture. The words that Jesus said are taken from Psalm 22 starting at vs1. What you have in this Psalm is King David being hunted down by King Saul. If you read it you have David crying out to God and appealing to Him and describing his own feelings of "forsakeness" while King Saul was after him.
The reality is the fact that at vs23,24 David praises God because God did not forsake or abandon him and neither did God forsake or "abandon" His one and only Son. As well Jesus knew before hand that He would be forsaken by His closest friends, still His confidence in His Father was unwavering. Joh 16:32, "A time is coming and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You WILL LEAVE ME ALONE. Yet I AM NOT ALONE, for My Father is with Me."
You also have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself," And at 2 Corinthians 5:21 God the Father treats the sinless Jesus Christ as though He were a sinner. As a side note when I was in Vietnam in January 1968 when the Tet offensive started we were "rocketed" and "shot" at continously and many of us were asking God, "Where are you?" Get us out of this horrible mess, and btw war is "horrible." We too felt forsaken but guess what, here I am dealing with you 50 years later in good health. You better wake up lancelot, and that goes for some others here that are "sympathetic" to wof teachings. I still pray for them on a daily basis that God touch their hearts to do and to teach the truth.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I don't think death to the body is the point of the 10th verse Wolf.
Rom 8:10 But if the Messiah is in you, your bodies are dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.
Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised the Messiah from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.
Flesh is not only the human body, but the human nature. And lust of the flesh occurs in both aspects. By faith in the Cross of Jesus, and the revealed promises of Paul given to him by the Lord, the completeness of sin ruling in born again men is "dead". Life however is in the awakened spirit. We are no longer men and women of flesh (human nature) but Spiritual beings ruling both body and soul. And of no gender when it comes to moving or speaking out of Spirit.
Rom 8:10 But if the Messiah is in you, your bodies are dead due to sin, but the spirit is alive due to righteousness.
Rom 8:11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised the Messiah from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.
Flesh is not only the human body, but the human nature. And lust of the flesh occurs in both aspects. By faith in the Cross of Jesus, and the revealed promises of Paul given to him by the Lord, the completeness of sin ruling in born again men is "dead". Life however is in the awakened spirit. We are no longer men and women of flesh (human nature) but Spiritual beings ruling both body and soul. And of no gender when it comes to moving or speaking out of Spirit.
Not really Wolf. I look at the Greek, and look at the other scriptures in the chapter, plus apply other truth found in the scripture.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not under the control of the human nature but under the control of the Spirit, since God's Spirit lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of the Messiah, he does not belong to him.
look then at the KJV...
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
We are spiritual beings.
We are under no debt to the flesh to live accordingly, but live as members of His body on earth. And believe the promises.
I just looked at the hebrew for "decree a thing and you shall have".
decide acceptance of promises.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not under the control of the human nature but under the control of the Spirit, since God's Spirit lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of the Messiah, he does not belong to him.
look then at the KJV...
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
We are spiritual beings.
We are under no debt to the flesh to live accordingly, but live as members of His body on earth. And believe the promises.
I just looked at the hebrew for "decree a thing and you shall have".
decide acceptance of promises.
Which Greek NT do you prefer? What Greek and Hebrew tools do you use?
You mouth that you use the Hebrew and Greek, but you have never studied either language. Hebrew and Greek are so much more complicated than doing gloss word studies.
Hopefully tomorrow I will exegete that passage. I hope we can properly discuss the results! That is, if I could figure out what you’re getting at in English, as you seem to be contradicting yourself.
I see...so you want to challenge me with your superior knowledge of the Greek language because I'm so off balance.
This thread is challenging Word of faith doctrine. I only got into this conversation with Wolf because he was posting to Joanie but he used my name by mistake, then he asked me the same question that he asked Joanie. If you had read the thread, you should of seen this.
My agreement with the Word of faith or the little I know of their teachings is that we do claim promises from the scriptures. I ask the Lord questions all the time, and He guides me to truth. No one should have to be Greek or Hebrew scholars to be taught by Holy Spirit. You all question me now on my hearing His Voice.
Everyone who names His name and is filled with His Spirit should eventually in their walk, have been tutored by the Lord in hearing Him. It's how we have relationship with Him, and not just hearing a pastor teach. This is also how we know we should be in a certain fellowship, when we hear from our teachers what we are being told in our private time with Him.
The scriptures in the N T show that there are things Holy Spirit teaches. So this is how my life with Him has been and I see this way of relationship mirrored in the Word.
Just explaining my way of study. The Word says that the bread that we eat, or the Word that we base our life on is the rhema, or the inspired, breath of words we receive directly from Him. Is this true Angela? Its Holy Spirit we need for all of life. Is this true Angela? How many here are Greek and Hebrew scholars? Yet everyone here has their own thought from the Word including you.
Its your attitude of superiority that is wrong. And a challenge is never from Holy Spirit. To show someone an error is to be out of wanting to help. Not drive away. I had you on ignore but reading without logging in brings up everything.
This is the passage of scripture that Wolf was discussing with Joanie. I include more for understanding.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[h=2]Heirs with Christ[/h]Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
My point out of these scriptures concerning that question from Wolf are three simple thoughts to show that we are no longer just a natural minded person thinking our own will and way, but living our life by His Word. Again the rhema Word.
We are spiritual beings. Verse 9 Our human nature or the I of our life is crucified with Christ and we are risen with Him in resurrection life.
There is an instant change with us in our born again experience. We pass from death to life by an action of God on our inner man. All should agree with this who are born again. I've not met anyone who is, differ.
Verse 9 states but we are Spirit. Agree?
We are under no debt to the flesh to live accordingly, but live as members of His body on earth. Verse 12 No longer a transgressor against God. Is what Strongs say. Agree?
And believe the promises. My thought about promises? All are yes and amen. Is why I posted a song from Bethel. Not sure which thread now. Some are running together. The song is about His yes and amen way of answering our faith. That's child like faith. He's our daddy and He said....
This affects our whole of our life. Spirit, soul, and body.
You all accept spirit and maybe soul, but reject body.
I differ with this and agree with Joanie and all who believe this and am walking my faith out. And receiving. Waiting for completion.
I wanted Wolf to look at the word quicken and tell me what this means to him.
Its to vitalize again in Strongs. I will use other lexicons if I need more understanding. But Strongs for me is sufficient. Again depending on Him more.
I just looked at the hebrew for "decree a thing and you shall have".
decide acceptance of promises.
This is old testament. I hear some say that we can decree a thing and we will have it. That never sat well with me inside so I looked at it.
Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.
decree:
[h=1]H1504[/h]
gaw-zar'
A primitive root; to cut down or off; (figuratively) to destroy, divide, exclude or decide: - cut down (off), decree, divide, snatch.
Total KJV occurrences: 13
Decide fits the context.
a thing:
[h=1]H562[/h]
o'-mer
The same as H561: - promise, speech, thing, word.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
be established:
[h=1]H6965[/h]
koom
A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).
When we decide, promises rise.
Fits right in with words spoken in faith that are promises from the Lord will be given.
Then to check it?
ISV
Job 22:28 When you make a decision on something, it will be established for you, and light will brighten your way.
This religious way of thinking that God gives diseases to teach us lessons is crazy. Disease came from the fall. Being an overcomer in life is the way Jesus brought to us, His own body. And the way is by His blood sacrifice....and THE WORD OF TESTIMONY!
I just watched a movie on prime called Breathe. Polio and confined to a respirator. No abundant life. Don't tell me this is from God.
He loves us! He has given us power! And He calls us to follow Him. We aren't alone. He is with us, and the moment we decide to believe...He runs to us.
Im done with this thread. And this topic.
This thread is challenging Word of faith doctrine. I only got into this conversation with Wolf because he was posting to Joanie but he used my name by mistake, then he asked me the same question that he asked Joanie. If you had read the thread, you should of seen this.
My agreement with the Word of faith or the little I know of their teachings is that we do claim promises from the scriptures. I ask the Lord questions all the time, and He guides me to truth. No one should have to be Greek or Hebrew scholars to be taught by Holy Spirit. You all question me now on my hearing His Voice.
Everyone who names His name and is filled with His Spirit should eventually in their walk, have been tutored by the Lord in hearing Him. It's how we have relationship with Him, and not just hearing a pastor teach. This is also how we know we should be in a certain fellowship, when we hear from our teachers what we are being told in our private time with Him.
The scriptures in the N T show that there are things Holy Spirit teaches. So this is how my life with Him has been and I see this way of relationship mirrored in the Word.
Just explaining my way of study. The Word says that the bread that we eat, or the Word that we base our life on is the rhema, or the inspired, breath of words we receive directly from Him. Is this true Angela? Its Holy Spirit we need for all of life. Is this true Angela? How many here are Greek and Hebrew scholars? Yet everyone here has their own thought from the Word including you.
Its your attitude of superiority that is wrong. And a challenge is never from Holy Spirit. To show someone an error is to be out of wanting to help. Not drive away. I had you on ignore but reading without logging in brings up everything.
This is the passage of scripture that Wolf was discussing with Joanie. I include more for understanding.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[h=2]Heirs with Christ[/h]Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
My point out of these scriptures concerning that question from Wolf are three simple thoughts to show that we are no longer just a natural minded person thinking our own will and way, but living our life by His Word. Again the rhema Word.
We are spiritual beings. Verse 9 Our human nature or the I of our life is crucified with Christ and we are risen with Him in resurrection life.
There is an instant change with us in our born again experience. We pass from death to life by an action of God on our inner man. All should agree with this who are born again. I've not met anyone who is, differ.
Verse 9 states but we are Spirit. Agree?
We are under no debt to the flesh to live accordingly, but live as members of His body on earth. Verse 12 No longer a transgressor against God. Is what Strongs say. Agree?
And believe the promises. My thought about promises? All are yes and amen. Is why I posted a song from Bethel. Not sure which thread now. Some are running together. The song is about His yes and amen way of answering our faith. That's child like faith. He's our daddy and He said....
This affects our whole of our life. Spirit, soul, and body.
You all accept spirit and maybe soul, but reject body.
I differ with this and agree with Joanie and all who believe this and am walking my faith out. And receiving. Waiting for completion.
I wanted Wolf to look at the word quicken and tell me what this means to him.
Its to vitalize again in Strongs. I will use other lexicons if I need more understanding. But Strongs for me is sufficient. Again depending on Him more.
I just looked at the hebrew for "decree a thing and you shall have".
decide acceptance of promises.
This is old testament. I hear some say that we can decree a thing and we will have it. That never sat well with me inside so I looked at it.
Job 22:28 Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto thee: and the light shall shine upon thy ways.
decree:
[h=1]H1504[/h]
גָּזַר
gâzargaw-zar'
A primitive root; to cut down or off; (figuratively) to destroy, divide, exclude or decide: - cut down (off), decree, divide, snatch.
Total KJV occurrences: 13
Decide fits the context.
a thing:
[h=1]H562[/h]
אֹמֶר
'ômero'-mer
The same as H561: - promise, speech, thing, word.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
be established:
[h=1]H6965[/h]
קוּם
qûmkoom
A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).
When we decide, promises rise.
Fits right in with words spoken in faith that are promises from the Lord will be given.
Then to check it?
ISV
Job 22:28 When you make a decision on something, it will be established for you, and light will brighten your way.
This religious way of thinking that God gives diseases to teach us lessons is crazy. Disease came from the fall. Being an overcomer in life is the way Jesus brought to us, His own body. And the way is by His blood sacrifice....and THE WORD OF TESTIMONY!
I just watched a movie on prime called Breathe. Polio and confined to a respirator. No abundant life. Don't tell me this is from God.
He loves us! He has given us power! And He calls us to follow Him. We aren't alone. He is with us, and the moment we decide to believe...He runs to us.
Im done with this thread. And this topic.