Someone is in Big Trouble

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
You claim that John was likely illiterate, and you think it is sustained by the Bible? Please, show us the evidence.
Hey, Dino.

So, I haven't read all of the posts here, but some claim, erroneously, in my opinion, that both Peter and John were illiterate, and here is what they base that belief on:

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." (Acts 4:13)

The underlying Greek word which is here translated into English as "unlearned" is "agrammatos", and it could carry the meaning of "illiterate":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g62/kjv/tr/0-1/

Similarly, the underlying Greek word which is here translated into English as "ignorant" is "idiōtēs", from which we derive our English word "idiot" (and we've got a lot of those here on this forum), and it too could carry the meaning of "illiterate":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2399/kjv/tr/0-1/

Personally, I don't believe that either Peter or John were illiterate.

Instead, I believe that this charge applied to the fact that they hadn't been formally trained in the Rabbinical schools.

A similar charge, I believe, was leveled against Jesus here:

John chapter 7

[15] And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
[16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
[17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jesus received no formal training from men (THANK GOD!), and, similarly, the Apostles received their training from Jesus himself.

Anyhow, that's how I see it.

I hope that this helps to answer your question.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
For the God fearing original Bible believing Christian....we must separate ourselves from conflicting politics.
Otherwise you are a secular politically based sinner.
as opposed to you being a religious politically based sinner? The point is that not even those that claim secular positions can legitimately claim 'no religion,' and neither can those that claim religion legitimately remove themselves from politics.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
as opposed to you being a religious politically based sinner? The point is that not even those that claim secular positions can legitimately claim 'no religion.'
If you were Christian oriented...you would not have that question.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
113
It is to some extent because the two "old" manuscripts which modern "scholarship" relies on are shorter; they have fewer words. The majority text has longer readings. So really this thread comes down to which is right. Who has added or who has taken away?
Yes, but until the 'scholars' are unanimous in their verdict, I'll just go along with the title of this thread, "Someone is in Big Trouble".
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
113
The point is that not even those that claim secular positions can legitimately claim 'no religion,...'
True, but when in political power they can make some truly anti biblical decisions.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,439
3,687
113
Yes, but until the 'scholars' are unanimous in their verdict, I'll just go along with the title of this thread, "Someone is in Big Trouble".
So who's in big trouble, in your opinion?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
113
Fenton John Anthony Hort speculated that sometime between 250 and 350 AD certain people added words to the original text; and that later another such revision happened. But there's not one shred of evidence to back up these assertions. Modern Biblical scholarship accepts these ideas as true without any evidence whatsoever!
the evidence is what you already posted -- the Byzantine family of texts is both statistically later & a great deal longer.
so, obvious question, how did it get longer than the older copies?

 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,623
13,864
113
Hey, Dino.

So, I haven't read all of the posts here, but some claim, erroneously, in my opinion, that both Peter and John were illiterate, and here is what they base that belief on:

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." (Acts 4:13)

The underlying Greek word which is here translated into English as "unlearned" is "agrammatos", and it could carry the meaning of "illiterate":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g62/kjv/tr/0-1/

Similarly, the underlying Greek word which is here translated into English as "ignorant" is "idiōtēs", from which we derive our English word "idiot" (and we've got a lot of those here on this forum), and it too could carry the meaning of "illiterate":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2399/kjv/tr/0-1/

Personally, I don't believe that either Peter or John were illiterate.

Instead, I believe that this charge applied to the fact that they hadn't been formally trained in the Rabbinical schools.

A similar charge, I believe, was leveled against Jesus here:

John chapter 7

[15] And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
[16] Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
[17] If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jesus received no formal training from men (THANK GOD!), and, similarly, the Apostles received their training from Jesus himself.

Anyhow, that's how I see it.

I hope that this helps to answer your question.
Thanks; I appreciate the textual background.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
113
The Bible that uses the earliest manuscripts.

The Vulgate was assembled in the fourth century and that is the earliest Bible translation.
the vulgate is not the earliest translation. for the NT, Jerome revised the pre-existing 'vetus latina' texts which had been translated from Greek texts that no longer exist in our day.

that was in fact Jerome's charter from pope Damasus I -- to revise and unify the Latin translations of the Bible that already existed, in particular the 4 gospels.
 
Jun 28, 2022
1,258
383
83
Majority of texts, documents, manuscripts etc., in comparison to two (but earlier).
How do we access those majority texts when the autographs are not available?
What we have now are copies of copies of copies, etc...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,988
13,627
113
Name calling? Really?

if you follow their exchange, he accused her of not being a Christian when she pointed out that politics and religion are irrevocably intertwined. she responded with basically "wow"

so the 'name calling' actually started with @peldom10 not with @Mem -- and if you know much of pel's history on the forum, and his embroilment in all things secularly-republican, contrasted with mem's near total disinvolvement with politics, then pel's crazy accusation and mem's rebuff make more sense.
 
Jun 28, 2022
1,258
383
83
if you follow their exchange, he accused her of not being a Christian when she pointed out that politics and religion are irrevocably intertwined. she responded with basically "wow"

so the 'name calling' actually started with @peldom10 not with @Mem -- and if you know much of pel's history on the forum, and his embroilment in all things secularly-republican, contrasted with mem's near total disinvolvement with politics, then pel's crazy accusation and mem's rebuff make more sense.
So, the observation regarding name calling would apply to both members rather than the one. Thanks .💕✝️

And actually I think it is applicable to anyone who thinks to go that route.



Love your neighbor, fellow board member, as yourself.💕✝️
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
113
How do we access those majority texts when the autographs are not available?
What we have now are copies of copies of copies, etc...
That's true, so the textual 'experts' have their system of analyzing, comparing and combing over the tons of manuscript evidence to come up with the closest to the originals. Consequently their conclusions end them up in those two camps. (Majority vs Critical).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
How do we access those majority texts when the autographs are not available?
God already knew that the autographs (originals) would disappear through much usage. Therefore He arranged for faithful scribes to make meticulous and accurate copies, and the copying continued until the invention of printing. The majority of Hebrew and Greek manuscripts support the TRADITIONAL Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Received Text. So there is no need to agonize over the autographs.

God not only inspired His Word but He also ensured its preservation through thousands of copies. So when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, the Isaiah scroll from about 200 BC was identical to the Leningrad Codex Isaiah from about 1,000 AD. And when Christ was on earth the Hebrew Tanakh from about 400 BC was regarded as the Hebrew Bible in 30 AD without any hesitation by either Christ or His enemies.

The same transmission of the Greek text was found in the majority of Greek manuscripts. However there was a minority of corrupt manuscripts which had been corrupted by Gnostics and those were also hanging around. So if you had a 1,000 witnesses in a court of law who testified in one direction, and you had 5 witnesses who testified in the opposite direction, whom would you believe?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,439
3,687
113
I'll let God decide, after all, He gave the warning.
Okay, that's up to you. But it's about more than someone being in trouble with God. It's about someone tampering with the scriptures and I think anyone who's concerned about knowing the truth would want to know who it was. Not so the guilty parties will "be in trouble," but so fewer people will be deceived.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
Looking at this passage in Rev 22...

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Rev 22:18-19)



Someone either added or left out (depending on which side of the debate you are on) the phrase " I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and", whichever way you go someone is in BIG trouble if that promise holds true.
All of the words in italics in the KJV were added. So.... there is that.