Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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A

Abiding

Guest
#61
#61
wait im not humble, im better than that nutty steven guy. He bugs me:p
wow that was a close one.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
#62
Abiding said:
your not supposed to tell me that,,,sheesh now im gona get all puffed up:p
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Give glory to God that he gave ya the strength to be that way :p

Plus we all need puffed up every now and then :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
#63
Abiding said:
wait im not humble, im better than that nutty steven guy. He bugs me:p
wow that was a close one.
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see your still a sinner saved by grace :p
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#66
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#66
Abiding said:
Disunity is a choice. Disagreement is a fact. How we conduct ourselves is a choice.
Noone has to have disunity just because they disagree.
I disagree with Elin on some stuff but i think shes coool:p
And i look at all her gifts and i want all shes willing to give.
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mike please.
don't make more of my post (to Elin) than was intended. it was a quip.
and if you didn't notice she was insulted fairly quickly.
in any case, i have no need or intention of being unified with everyone who professes just anything.
i think we can agree on that (?)
:)

hmmm......i thought this thread had been quite pleasant and Elin was being very proper.
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#67
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#67
eternally-gratefull said:
Judge not lest ye be judged!:p
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Hey, why are you getting on my case? I'm just like a lot of people in here, stating facts with absolutely no Scripture to back it........... just sayin':p. I was only trying to fit in.;)
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#68
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#68
okay...factions and disunity:rolleyes:
it was a good study.

i'm out.
i'll read from elsewhere.
ty Elin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#69
#69
Stephen63 said:
Hey, why are you getting on my case? I'm just like a lot of people in here, stating facts with absolutely no Scripture to back it........... just sayin':p. I was only trying to fit in.;)
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Hey, I was just trying to act like a good christian so everyone would not judge me :p of course that never works.. to many big heads in here :D
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#70
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#70
zone said:
okay...factions and disunity:rolleyes:
it was a good study.

i'm out.
i'll read from elsewhere.
ty Elin.
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What!?! I thought that was the way you liked it?!? Ya just can't please some people.:p
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#72
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#72
Stephen63 said:
What!?! I thought that was the way you liked it?!? Ya just can't please some people.:p
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stephen, you're not even funny.
i actually see you contribute very little but hit and runs.
waiting for the chance to make 'em

but you may have success here.
it was a good thread, but legalistic and head knowledgy.
ya. the gang's all here.:)

take there then bud.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#74
#74
zone said:
mike please.
don't make more of my post (to Elin) than was intended. it was a quip.
and if you didn't notice she was insulted fairly quickly.
in any case, i have no need or intention of being unified with everyone who professes just anything.
i think we can agree on that (?)
:)

hmmm......i thought this thread had been quite pleasant and Elin was being very proper.
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Kath, im at a loss. not sure what your objecting to:)
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#75
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#75
zone said:
stephen, you're not even funny.
i actually see you contribute very little but hit and runs.
waiting for the chance to make 'em

but you may have success here.
it was a good thread, but legalistic and head knowledgy.
ya. the gang's all here.:)

take there then bud.
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I contribute just as much as most people on here! I just don't post very often. Think about that a minute.......
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#76
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
0
#76
By the way, I need some more rep points if I'm going to catch up to some of these guys. Your donations(votes)are appreciated, but not tax-deductible. Sorry.;)
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#77
#77
"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight!" -Isaiah 5:21

hehehe j/k.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#78
#78
Elin said:
II. Free Will:

In the Biblical sense of free will, the sovereignty of God over the wills of men is not an impediment to Biblical free will.

Unregenerate man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34; Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22). Slaves aren't free.
But slaves can still make some voluntary choices without external constraints,
slaves can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
However, their choices are limited by their condition of slavery.
They can make only those choices their condition of slavery allows.

And that is the condition of unregenerate mankind.
They are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) because of their fallen corrupt disposition which favors sin.
However, they can still make voluntary choices without external constraint,
they can still choose voluntarily to do some of the things they desire.
But the Bible states unregenerate man cannot choose to love and obey God,
because the mind of unregenerate man has been set in hostility to God by his fallen nature, and cannot submit to God's law (Ro 8:7).

When we speak of free will in its secular sense, it is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to love and obey God, and if they choose, even to live a sinless life.
The Bible denies that unregenerate mankind has such power (Jn 8:34; Ro 8:7).

The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to make voluntary choices, without external constraint, according to his disposition.
The Bible affirms that unregenerate mankind has the power to voluntarily choose to do what he wishes or desires.
But in its secular sense, that is not free will, that is simply free agency.
The free will of the Bible is limited and, therefore, in its secular sense, it is only free agency.

So we have the Biblical meaning of free will, which is the power to voluntary make choices, without external constraint, according to our disposition/condition, like the slave, and
we have the secular meaning of free will, which is the power to make all moral choices, even to life a sinless life.

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible
  • is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
  • is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
  • is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.
And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

That's one down, in the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men.
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it has been my observation that many calvinists...especially the 'new calvinists'...confuse the sovereignty of God with strict fatalistic determinism...which is unbiblical...and something neither calvin nor luther meant when they wrote on total depravity and the 'bondage of the will' and unconditional election...their views were much more narrowly restricted to only the role played by free will in salvation...

i am glad to see that you seem to have avoided this common pitfall...
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#80
#80
RachelBibleStudent said:
it has been my observation that many calvinists...especially the 'new calvinists'...confuse the sovereignty of God with strict fatalistic determinism...which is unbiblical...and something neither calvin nor luther meant when they wrote on total depravity and the 'bondage of the will' and unconditional election...their views were much more narrowly restricted to only the role played by free will in salvation...

i am glad to see that you seem to have avoided this common pitfall...
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did you read the original OP?
 
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