Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[GreenNnice]

Nah, actually, the Lord's leading me away, the accusatory comments toward 'the truth' Pentecostals believe, which, incidentally,is the SAME foundational truth Presbyterians believe, says to me, at this point, anyway, to just walk away, in love, hoping, praying the divisive remarks you made toward are seen both false and belittling to believers in Christ, nile, forgive my dyslexia

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Not at all. I'm just playing with you... lol. Isaiah was talking about arrogance not confidence. Two different things.

Do I resemble that remark? I'm fitting in better than I thought!!

 

[Stephen63]

Not at all. I'm just playing with you... lol. Isaiah was talking about arrogance not confidence. Two different things.

Sheesh! Guess that means I still don't fit in!

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

YOU DO YOU DO YOU REALLY REALLY DO!!! We need a hug machine at CC. I propose a hug machine be built.

Sheesh! Guess that means I still don't fit in!

 

[Elin]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lk 22:22 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Aim: To address the charges of injustice and odiousness raised by many against the sovereignty of God in the actions of men. The Scripture references do the teaching, but your mind will not be transformed by them unless you diligently study them all, for it takes more than the logic of it to overcome man's disposition against it (Mt 20:12; Ro 3:5, 7, 8, 9:14, 19).


I. Introduction:

We should probably begin with God's foreknowledge.

Please note that the multitude of Scriptures given as demonstrations in this presentation are not all concise statements in the particular Scripture, but can be seen in the context of the particular Scripture.

Ac 4:27-28 - Those who conspired "against God's holy servant, Jesus, did what God's purpose determined before to be done."

exactly but note, they did conspire. In His wisdom and determined will He accomplished His will.

Agreed.

In looking at the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge in Ac 4:28, there are two things:

​

• 
  [*=1]the meaning of "determine" in its statement that "God determines beforehand what is done."

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conclusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain
God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines, therre is no altering.
Nope Hes wiser than simply that. Thats a mansize idear there​

I see that as much more than mansize wisdom.

I see that as power to determine/set the outcome from the beginning.​

• the eternal principles stated in Ac 4:28

all that stated is that man did as He pleased and God accomplished His predermined plan with mens natural actions. Some were hardened in those natural wills but nevertheless it was mans decisions. God in His wisdom did His will with it all.

God chose not to soften them, as he softened mine when he brought me to saving faith in what was distasteful and objectionable to me.

1) It is God, not men, who determines what happens.
Well of coarse in as much as His will is concerned

2) What God determines, shall happen, because he has determined that it shall happen
No, thats going too far, His ultimate will will come to pass. But His plan and what pleases Him entails many evils and things that He hates, suffers, and sends judgement, hardening, curses etc. When God wants to have His way then no doubt He will bring it to pass. But to say this is all just a movie coming from all God dreamed about in eternity past is just too oversimplistic.

I don't see it as a "movie."

I see it as the unalterable working out of his plan determined/set before the foundations of the world.

And then in looking at the nature of God:

Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are

• conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28),

Partly true. Mostly not.

I see it as a revealed prinicple of divine sovereignty.

I don't expect it to be stated every time it occurs.

• thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35)

Ultimately not, but in the process not true.

But unless he controls the process, the ultimate end is not assured, and God's outcome is always sure, it's never in doubt.

• or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48) the actions of men.

Loss is the sense God is complete and has no need. But in scripture there are several times God says He is not receiving what He wanted men to do and how the relationship He wants He is not getting. That He wanted to give themblessings they caused Him to withhold...this could go on for pages

That is resolved in one of your Scriptures, Dt 29:29, and is another post.

Rather, Scripture presents a God

• who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30)

true in a sense, not in a complete sense, meaning in every way we think. But according to His ultimate plan.

• whose plans cannot be thwarted by man (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10),
  

true but keep in mind His ultimate will will include many things that grieves Him.

The Bible knows nothing of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen (Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7, 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10; 54:16; Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zec 11:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Rev 17:17). And that is for another post.

• and who is loser to no man (Mt 5:26).

Hmmm the punishment itself is proof Gods justice was at a loss.

Actually, the punishement was God's justice, which was not at a loss, right?

It is men, not Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do, and then basing his plans on their action. Because it is man's thinking, not God's thinking. a sovereign God does not condition his outcomes on the actions of men.
Why is this a factor in this?

Because it is man's thinking, not Biblical thinking.

Of coarse God knows the future, why would you discount that?
To alot of people that is a comfort, in more ways than just knowing He knew them before they were saved but in many other ways. Gods foreknowledge i understand has different meanings in different contexts.

Actually, it does not, just as his omnipotence does not have different meanings in different contexts.

Don't you think that would be inconsistent?

Just dont like to see it get dissed on. I understand your point tho. Its used as almost a belittling of mans understanding.

The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27;
Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

God causing things is true. No one would argue His right or power to do so. But take your first example. God didnt go against the will of the man He gave him a dream and commanded the man with a threat if he didnt.

That is addressed in the second part on free will (post #41), here.

Second example take into consideration the plagues,deaths..etc. My point is is that of coarse noone can stop God Almighty, but i think your trying to make the point that God isnt working with man in mans private will and it just isnt going to work with these scriptures. They are showing quite the opposite.

Yes, he is working it into man's private will. And that's another post.

The God presented in the Scriptures is sovereign.
Of coarse He is

Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsel
Everything that happens He is over but not the underlying cause of all that happens.

(Is 53:10; Da 11:36; Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28; 13:48)
i wish these verses could have some rest. they mean precisely what they say but not what you are implying they say.

determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8, 17:8).
More truths but again they only mean what was intended in the text.

I see them all as lifting the curtain and giving us a glimpse of the principles of all God's actions.

For Scripture's answer to man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21

This is what i see alot. This verse used as a pry and also in a rude way. You used it to say if anyone didnt believe what "you" said was true had a attitude with God. but that is in no way the reason Paul intended it. Youve taken it completely out of context. Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual salvation. But about the way God is working out the larger plan of redemption.

I think the text states the contrary:

"therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy (that's salvation),
and he hardens whom he wants to harden (that's damnation)." (v.18)

"only the remnant will be saved." (v.27)

"Israel who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it (righteousness is salvation).
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith (faith gives salvation), but as if it were by works." (vv. 31-32)

So Scripture's presentation of God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is not a looking down the corridors of time and seeing in advance what men are going to do.
That notion is from the mind of man.
Actually God put this idea in our minds. Also God works with mens choices. He also put that in our minds.
God surely has it predetermined and decreed in advance but your taking out major parts, that He works with man and i read all the verses and was already familiar with them all and they didnt work for your thesis.

Rather, Scripture shows that God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is based in his decree that it shall happen.
And that notion is from the mind of God.
You dont know the mind of God. And are missing a big part of what is going on. I agree that all His good pleasure WILL come to pass. That shows not only His power but His longsufferring(which i wont question you about now) and His Love and His wisdom, and His patience................

Scripture is the mind of God.

 

[Elin]

I'm sorry Elin correct me if i am wrong but are saying man is a slave to sin?

Jesus said that he who sins is a slave to sin. (Jn 8:34)

He was speaking of man's fallen nature inherited from Adam.
In the unregenerate, the fallen nature sets them in hostility to God, insubordination, and inability to obey him (Ro 8:7).
That is the real meaning of slavery to sin.

Jesus, through regeneration, frees those who believe in him from that hostility, insubordination and inability to obey God.

But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.

And their fallen nature limits their moral power.

For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?

He does not. But Adam had that power before the fall, and he lost it when he disobeyed God.

So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.

 

[Elin]

Humility is not truth when you go around telling everyone your right and they are wrong

Humility is saying, this is what I believe and this is why I believe it,

Wouldn't mind you humbly addressing what you left on the table here.

 

[mark54]

Jesus said that he who sins is a slave to sin. (Jn 8:34)

He was speaking of man's fallen nature inherited from Adam.
In the unregenerate, the fallen nature sets them in hostility to God, insubordination, and inability to obey him (Ro 8:7).
That is the real meaning of slavery to sin.

Jesus, through regeneration, frees those who believe in him from that hostility, insubordination and inability to obey God.

But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.

And their fallen nature limits their moral power.

For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?

He does not. But Adam had that power before the fall, and he lost it when he disobeyed God.

So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.

I do agree with much of what you have written Elin, but I don't think Paul can have seen 'slavery to sin', exactly as you have explained it in the above:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness
Rom6:16

 

[Stephen63]

YOU DO YOU DO YOU REALLY REALLY DO!!! We need a hug machine at CC. I propose a hug machine be built.

Naah, we have to much "going through the motions" on here as it is! We don't need a machine on here to do that!

 

[Elin]

Why is the distinction important?
Because free will in the Bible

• is limited, by unregenerate man's slavery to sin, and his will is not totally "free" in the secular sense,
• is only a matter of acting voluntarily, without external constraint, and
• is not a matter of being allowed the choice of all options, which is the secular meaning of free will.

And because God operates within the hearts of men causing them voluntarily, without external constraint to do as he wills, he is not violating their free will in the Biblical sense.

So man's free will in the Biblical sense is not violated by God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

That's one down, in the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men.

okay....i had no problem whatsoever understanding, and i believe all of the first part is so.

but this part, particularly the part bolded, i got lost on.

are you saying:
?

if so, i need to restart on that. i read it three times.
i'll wait to see if that's what you mean

I love your common sense.
Don't blame you for getting lost. . .it's as clear as mud.

Okay, let's start with the three itemized at the top that are not bolded:
I am talking about what the freedom is in the Biblical meaning of free will.
It means that fallen man's will is not completely free to make all moral choices, as Adam's was.
Adam could choose to live a sinless life.
No human can do so, even the regenerate.
We are not free to do that, as Adam was, so Biblical free will includes limitations on the chices we can voluntarily and freely make.
But in the Biblical sense, free will is about being able to choose voluntarily, without being constrained by an external force.

And then I am also pointing out what free will is really about, and not about.
It is about man's inner ability and power to execute any moral choice he voluntarily and freely makes.
It is about ability to execute.

It is not about being neutral to all possible moral choices, not about having no inclination to one choice over others, because that would mean my will is not completely free.
That I am inclined to Jack over John, and am not neutral to both, does not constrain my free will and mean that it is not completely free to voluntarily make a choice without the force of external constraint, to keep me from choosing Jack.
The freedom is about choosing voluntarily, it is not about having no preferences.
That I will choose according to my preferences does not mean my will is not entirely free.

So there is the meaning of our freedom, and there is the nature of our freedom, in the Biblical sense.

And now to what you've bolded above:

Yes, Scripture shows God operates within the hearts of men, causing them voluntarily, and without external constraint to prefer what he wills, which is what they then choose to do.

We see this in:
Ex 3:21 - in the pagan Eqyptians
Dt 2:25 - in all the nations under heaven
Dt 2:30 - in Siihon king of Heshbon
Josh 11:20 - in the Canaanites
Pr 21:21 - in the hearts of kings, such as Nebuchadnezzar (Da 4:31-32, 35) and Cyrus (Ezr 6:22, 7:27)
Ps 105:25 - in the foes of Israel
Ps 106:46 - in the captors of Israel
Da 1:9 - in the Babylon official
Rev 17:17 - in the beast and the ten horns

We also see it in his people in:
Ge 20:6 - in Abraham
Ezr 1:1, 5 - in Ezra
1Sa 10:9 - in Saul
Ne2:12, 7:5 - in Nehemiah
2Co 8:16 - in Titus

That is how God effects the outcomes which he has determined shall occur.

So have I answered your questions, or just stirred up more mud?

 

[Elin]

Ive never seen freewill definitions that were consistent.
whether secular or biblical.

I never knew anyone who thought a unregenerate could live a perfect life?
I dont even think a regenerate person has free will. He can yield his will and seek grace is all.

I always just thought the term freewill simply meant man does as he pleases for the most part.
I agree for the most part that a mans choices are limited to his disposition and light.
I cant take it so far though like some who say we can only do what our nature allows
then i have to have adam and eves actions explained.

Id say i agreed all of that but i didnt understand much of it and i read it like 3 times.

I agree, it was as clear as mud.

But im guessing your trying to make a point natural man does not seek God on his own.

Well, actually I was addressing the biggest objection to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men.

And that objection is that it violates their free will.

But since God operates within their hearts and causes them to pefer what he wills, their free will is not violated because they freely choose to do it, they are not forced to do it.

 

[Elin]

Disunity is a choice. Disagreement is a fact. How we conduct ourselves is a choice.
Noone has to have disunity just because they disagree.
I disagree with Elin on some stuff but i think shes coool
And i look at all her gifts and i want all shes willing to give.

Awwwwwww. . .

 

[zone]

i get it Elin.
it's like if a bad guy breaks in here to hurt me, i know he's a bad guy, and i since i know where the gun is and he doesn't, i can use his own desires (to hurt and rob me) to accomplish my will, which is to get him to look in the wrong place (the jewelry box), while i am going for the gun.
is that about right (i speak as a madman)?

 

[Elin]

it has been my observation that many calvinists...especially the 'new calvinists'...confuse the sovereignty of God with strict fatalistic determinism...which is unbiblical...and something neither calvin nor luther meant when they wrote on total depravity and the 'bondage of the will' and unconditional election...their views were much more narrowly restricted to only the role played by free will in salvation...

i am glad to see that you seem to have avoided this common pitfall...

Thanks, that's probably because I don't do Calvinism, I do Bible.

 

[Elin]

did you read the original OP?

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. . .

 

[Elin]

And now to what you've bolded above:

Yes, Scripture shows God operates within the hearts of men, causing them voluntarily, and without external constraint to prefer what he wills, which is what they then choose to do.

We see this in:
Ex 3:21 - in the pagan Eqyptians--"I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed."
Dt 2:25 - in all the nations under heaven--"I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all. . ."
Dt 2:30 - in Siihon king of Heshbon--"God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to"
Josh 11:20 - in the Canaanites--"the Lord himself hardened their hearts. . .so that he might destroy them totally"
Pr 21:1 - in the hearts of kings, such as Nebuchadnezzar (Da 4:31-32, 35) and Cyrus (Ezr 6:22, 7:27)
Ps 105:25 - in the foes of Israel--"whose hearts he turned to hate his people"
Ps 106:46 - in the captors of Israel--"he caused them to be pitied" by their captors
Da 1:9 - in the Babylon official--"God had caused the official to show favor to Daniel"
Rev 17:17 - in the beast and the ten horns--"God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose"

We also see it in his people in:
Ge 20:6 - in Abraham
Ezr 1:1, 5 - in Ezra
1Sa 10:9 - in Saul
Ne2:12, 7:5 - in Nehemiah
2Co 8:16 - in Titus

That is how God effects the outcomes which he has determined shall occur.

i get it Elin.
it's like if a bad guy breaks in here to hurt me, i know he's a bad guy, and i since i know where the gun is and he doesn't, i can use his own desires (to hurt and rob me) to accomplish my will, which is to get him to look in the wrong place (the jewelry box), while i am going for the gun.
is that about right (i speak as a madman)?

I see the Scriptures above as stating that God gave them a desire which was not their own, and which caused them to effect his purposes.

I don't see them as stating that God used any desires they already had to effect his purposes.

And since it was now their desire, they chose voluntarily to do what they preferred, which was his will, and their free will was never violated.

 

[Elin]

okay...factions and disunity
it was a good study.

i'm out.
i'll read from elsewhere.
ty Elin.

It's been taken care of.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wouldn't mind you humbly addressing what you left on the table here.

You have no desire to be humble do you? I have tried to be nice to you, but your attitude makes it hard..

Do you talk to people like this in real life? I can see it now.. What do I believe, Here, read this this will tell you. come talk to me when you get done.

You know this is a bible discussion forum do you not? why do you not want to discuss scripture. But just take people all over the place.. and tell them they are wrong??

And I did address it. Over and over, if you disagree, thats fine,, Humility is the ability to agree to disagree, something you reformers seem not able to do.. Thats why I said, it would be nice to see some humility.. Guess that is not in your vocabulary?

 

[Elin]

You have no desire to be humble do you? I have tried to be nice to you, but your attitude makes it hard..

You know this is a bible discussion forum do you not? why do you not want to discuss scripture.

Wouldn't mind you humbly addressing what you left on the table here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wouldn't mind you humbly addressing what you left on the table here.

see, no humility, I addressed it.. You refuse to agree to disagree, You are to proud. It is your way or the highway.

thanks once again for proving it.

you do understand everyone in chat saw I already addressed it.. more than once.

I could care less if you agree.. But I see your not that humble..

It is not a salvation issue, are we supposed to act this way against our brothers and sisters in Christ?