Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
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Elin, I don't think Paul can have seen 'slavery to sin', exactly as you have explained it in the above:
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness
Rom6:16
Could you humbly address the above please Elin, it is your thread
Thanks
Humbly?
How 'bout truthfully, or clearly?
I am addressing Jesus' statement that we are slaves,
and that it is only those whom he makes free that are free,
and I'm doing it in relation free will, and not in relation to salvation.
Paul's context is salvation.
Mine context is free will, which does not negate what Paul states.
Is that clear as mud?
How 'bout truthfully, or clearly?
I am addressing Jesus' statement that we are slaves,
and that it is only those whom he makes free that are free,
and I'm doing it in relation free will, and not in relation to salvation.
Paul's context is salvation.
Mine context is free will, which does not negate what Paul states.
Is that clear as mud?
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Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it for ever. [SUP]36 [/SUP]So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed
For sin shall not be you master(you will not be a slave to sin) for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14
I don't see how the above tallies with the below. Jesus context must be salvation too
So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.
For sin shall not be you master(you will not be a slave to sin) for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14
I don't see how the above tallies with the below. Jesus context must be salvation too
So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.
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Yes, Jesus' context is rebirth into God's family as sons.
Paul's context is freedom from the power of sin.
But my text in blue above is referring to slavery and Biblical free will, which is the subject of the OP, Part II.
It is not referring to rebirth into God's family as sons,
nor to freedom from the power of sin.
Is that more clear?
Paul's context is freedom from the power of sin.
But my text in blue above is referring to slavery and Biblical free will, which is the subject of the OP, Part II.
It is not referring to rebirth into God's family as sons,
nor to freedom from the power of sin.
Is that more clear?
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E
Yes,
But choosing to trust in Christ would not be a moral issue would it? thus it would not fit the mold of being a fallen person not able to chose to trust in the one who can save you.
A slave could have their freedom purchased, and chose to remain a slave.. or chose to go free. it all depends on what they trust,
But choosing to trust in Christ would not be a moral issue would it? thus it would not fit the mold of being a fallen person not able to chose to trust in the one who can save you.
A slave could have their freedom purchased, and chose to remain a slave.. or chose to go free. it all depends on what they trust,
i get it...slavery...to whom you are a slave, you are in bondage, sold to/under.
you are a captive and must be set free/redeemed/purchased.
a slave can not do this (unto freedom from sin, freedom from bondage to sin unto death)...
the slave (of sin, to sin, born in sin, hating God and at enmity with Him) can still act freely within his state of slavery - within the limits of his status and condition.
he can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic he lives and works on.
he may even eat with silverware and play a violin in his spare time.
is that right?
you are a captive and must be set free/redeemed/purchased.
a slave can not do this (unto freedom from sin, freedom from bondage to sin unto death)...
the slave (of sin, to sin, born in sin, hating God and at enmity with Him) can still act freely within his state of slavery - within the limits of his status and condition.
he can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic he lives and works on.
he may even eat with silverware and play a violin in his spare time.
is that right?
Your brightness is just fine.
I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.
If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.
What I am saying is not a misapplication of what Jesus stated regarding our slavery.
I am using the principle of slavery given by Jesus to show that man does not have a will that is absolutely free.
And that is exactly what Paul states in Ro 8:7-8.
If man's will were absolutly free, he could choose never to sin.
Adam had an absolutely free will, and could choose never to sin, and he lost that freedom when he disobeyed God.
What I am saying is not a misapplication of what Jesus stated regarding our slavery.
So having shown God's sovereignty in the actions of men does not conflict with their free will, the first objection to God's sovereignty is removed, and we can move on to what the Bible presents on the moral responsibility of mankind.
III. Moral Responsibility of Mankind:
The Bible teaches that, even though unregenerate man's will is not free/able to make all moral choices (Jn 8:34) and, therefore, he is unable to choose to obey God (Ro 8:7),
man is still morally responsible/guilty for sin (Ro 3:19b, 14:12).
But how is it just to hold man morally responsible/guilty for sin if he is unable to obey God? An analogy is helpful here.
Suppose an invalid borrowed money from you on the promise that he would repay you from his inheritance at his father's death.
The invalid has contracted a just debt, which he is responsible to pay.
But suppose when the invalid comes into his inheritance, he is conned out of the whole inheritance before his debt is paid.
The invalid is still responsible for his just debt, even though he is unable to pay.
The principle here is that responsibility to pay is not based in ability to pay, but in what is justly owed.
The same is true Biblically.
Responsibility to obey God is not based in man's ability to obey God (which he does not have--Ro 8:7),
but in what man justly owes God.
God is the center of the universe, not man (Rev 4:11).
God is the potter who owns everything he created (Ex 19:5; Dt 10:14; Job 41:11; Ps 24:1, 50:12; Eze 18:4), including man (Is 45:9; Jer 18:6).
He has a right to obedience from man (Lk 17:10) and, therefore, obedience is justly owed to him.
Unregenerate man's spiritual impotency does not release him from that just debt, because man's responsibility does not issue from his ability to pay, but from what he justly owes.
Now, while justice requires the invalid to pay his debt to you, justice will not be done in your case, because the invalid is unable to pay.
However, with God, justice is always done.
If we do not pay our debt (through Jesus Christ), we will be thrown into debtors' prison, even though we are powerless to pay it.
Justice will be exacted of unregenerate man to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God his adversary (Ro 5:10),
with whom he is warned to settle his accounts before they come into God's court of judgment (Mt 5:25).
So unregenerate man is responsible/guilty for his sin of disobedience (Mt 12:36), even though he is unable to obey God (Ro 8:7).
Biblically, inability to obey God does not remove mankind's moral responsibility/guilt for his sin,
and, therefore, there is no injustice in God holding unregenerate mankind accountable for sin (his debt) even though he cannot (pay the debt he justly owes to) obey God.
So of the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men, two have now been removed:
1) it is a violation of man's free will, and
2) is is unjust to hold man responsible for what he is unable to do.
to be con't.
III. Moral Responsibility of Mankind:
The Bible teaches that, even though unregenerate man's will is not free/able to make all moral choices (Jn 8:34) and, therefore, he is unable to choose to obey God (Ro 8:7),
man is still morally responsible/guilty for sin (Ro 3:19b, 14:12).
But how is it just to hold man morally responsible/guilty for sin if he is unable to obey God? An analogy is helpful here.
Suppose an invalid borrowed money from you on the promise that he would repay you from his inheritance at his father's death.
The invalid has contracted a just debt, which he is responsible to pay.
But suppose when the invalid comes into his inheritance, he is conned out of the whole inheritance before his debt is paid.
The invalid is still responsible for his just debt, even though he is unable to pay.
The principle here is that responsibility to pay is not based in ability to pay, but in what is justly owed.
The same is true Biblically.
Responsibility to obey God is not based in man's ability to obey God (which he does not have--Ro 8:7),
but in what man justly owes God.
God is the center of the universe, not man (Rev 4:11).
God is the potter who owns everything he created (Ex 19:5; Dt 10:14; Job 41:11; Ps 24:1, 50:12; Eze 18:4), including man (Is 45:9; Jer 18:6).
He has a right to obedience from man (Lk 17:10) and, therefore, obedience is justly owed to him.
Unregenerate man's spiritual impotency does not release him from that just debt, because man's responsibility does not issue from his ability to pay, but from what he justly owes.
Now, while justice requires the invalid to pay his debt to you, justice will not be done in your case, because the invalid is unable to pay.
However, with God, justice is always done.
If we do not pay our debt (through Jesus Christ), we will be thrown into debtors' prison, even though we are powerless to pay it.
Justice will be exacted of unregenerate man to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34) by God his adversary (Ro 5:10),
with whom he is warned to settle his accounts before they come into God's court of judgment (Mt 5:25).
So unregenerate man is responsible/guilty for his sin of disobedience (Mt 12:36), even though he is unable to obey God (Ro 8:7).
Biblically, inability to obey God does not remove mankind's moral responsibility/guilt for his sin,
and, therefore, there is no injustice in God holding unregenerate mankind accountable for sin (his debt) even though he cannot (pay the debt he justly owes to) obey God.
So of the objections to God's sovereignty in the actions of men, two have now been removed:
1) it is a violation of man's free will, and
2) is is unjust to hold man responsible for what he is unable to do.
to be con't.
