Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
That God judicially blinds, deafens (Lk 8:10) and hardens (Ro 11:25) is the testimony of Scripture.
That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.
By hardening them, he renders them unable to turn and repent, and holds them guilty of not turning and repenting.
For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
That God holds men guilty of their judicial blindness, deafness and hardness is likewise the testimony of Scripture.
By hardening them, he renders them unable to turn and repent, and holds them guilty of not turning and repenting.
For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.
Last edited:
C
Then I am forced to ask again:
Is it not possible for God to turn an hardened heart to flesh?
Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Is it not possible for God to turn an hardened heart to flesh?
Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Man's responsibility is precisely what Paul labors to show in Ro 5:12-21.
Death is the penalty for sin.
Sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses.
Yet men died, because they were involved in the sin of someone else, namely, Adam.
Involvement in sin is guilt of sin.
God punishes only the guilty.
Men were guilty of the sin of Adam.
Paul presents two Adams and two imputations.
The sin/guilt of Adam is imputed to mankind, just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to those who believe.
Just as were are made righteous by imputation because of the second Adam,
so we are made guilty by imputation because of the first Adam.
Death is the penalty for sin.
Sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses.
Yet men died, because they were involved in the sin of someone else, namely, Adam.
Involvement in sin is guilt of sin.
God punishes only the guilty.
Men were guilty of the sin of Adam.
Paul presents two Adams and two imputations.
The sin/guilt of Adam is imputed to mankind, just as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to those who believe.
Just as were are made righteous by imputation because of the second Adam,
so we are made guilty by imputation because of the first Adam.
Last edited:
C
Yes and it is based on their own unbelieve (something they did to themselves).
Yes of their own unbelieve, but He is not the cause of their unbelieve, but because of this unbelieve, He hardened them
You are saying that they were blinded because of something they did and they are not judged based on something God did?
Yes of their own unbelieve, but He is not the cause of their unbelieve, but because of this unbelieve, He hardened them
You are saying that they were blinded because of something they did and they are not judged based on something God did?
C
Not to be rude, but this is what you said:
This says to me: God blinded (etc...) them and because God blinded them, they are held accountable for that blindedness. To me, the way you are saying it is that God blinded them so that He could hold them accountable for that blindness instead of their sin.
This says to me: God blinded (etc...) them and because God blinded them, they are held accountable for that blindedness. To me, the way you are saying it is that God blinded them so that He could hold them accountable for that blindness instead of their sin.
A
I dont feel like laboring over every post so i need to watch my posts. I said we are in the consequences of Adams sin.
Because we are sinners. Thats what Paul was laboring. We are NOT responsible for Adams sin. He was. I know the doctrine.
And i know your point. I just didnt like how you worded it. I understand the federal head an all i just dont talk theological.
Of coarse you know i dont like Romans 9 used willyNilly. But if you must id sure like you to quit misusing it to teach,
"For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God."
You tell the story as if God hardens whomever then is glorified in unjustice and you call it justice. How odd and sad that is.
read the whole text.....It says "what if" then what? It says He "Endured with much longsuffering the vessels ripe, ready for destruction by wrath"
See you leave out the fact God worked with Israel, He pleaded with Israel. They were far past any mercy. So What if?
God chooses to use them. That is the point of Romans 9. Not making God into a Egotist. But seeing how as you insist that Gods will cant be thwarted. Which i agree. The text shows that.
Your idea that God hardens people is true. But when? After they are reprobate. Past redeemable. For not receiving the
Love of the truth. You tell a different story, then you imply to folks if they were the real elect they would see no problem.
Ha. I see a problem. Its nuts and unbiblical. Well ill say its Half biblical. Since you only read half the text.
Because we are sinners. Thats what Paul was laboring. We are NOT responsible for Adams sin. He was. I know the doctrine.
And i know your point. I just didnt like how you worded it. I understand the federal head an all i just dont talk theological.
Of coarse you know i dont like Romans 9 used willyNilly. But if you must id sure like you to quit misusing it to teach,
"For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God."
You tell the story as if God hardens whomever then is glorified in unjustice and you call it justice. How odd and sad that is.
read the whole text.....It says "what if" then what? It says He "Endured with much longsuffering the vessels ripe, ready for destruction by wrath"
See you leave out the fact God worked with Israel, He pleaded with Israel. They were far past any mercy. So What if?
God chooses to use them. That is the point of Romans 9. Not making God into a Egotist. But seeing how as you insist that Gods will cant be thwarted. Which i agree. The text shows that.
Your idea that God hardens people is true. But when? After they are reprobate. Past redeemable. For not receiving the
Love of the truth. You tell a different story, then you imply to folks if they were the real elect they would see no problem.
Ha. I see a problem. Its nuts and unbiblical. Well ill say its Half biblical. Since you only read half the text.
W
Hi Zone, I always wanted to tell you I grew up in a Lutheran church in rural Iowa all Germans, some ( in my childhood still spoke German any way...Whether or not the cor.scripture was written to believers or not has no bearing on what is said. As a matter of fact it is probably said more to unsaved than save ,since it is a foundational concept to salvation , that being there is none righteous no not one. And that the natural man receiveth not the things of the God. Perhaps I was unclear,the only means of knowing what God has for us is by the spirit of God revealing them to us. And in context with Paul's message ( read Ch 1-4) in the first few chapters ,of the members being divided . I think Paul was saying that our deadness to God is something we all have in common ,that we were equally all without hope, stuck in sin and death and only by Gods work, not Paul's or Apollos Or Cephas OR the nondenominational ,of Christ ,were we made alive after having received the word with faith , which was our choice To beleive or not to believe. Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the Gospel, For Isaiah has said,"Lord who hath believed our report? (13) for whosoever shall call upon the lord shall be saved" (14) how shall they call on whom they have not believed and how shall they believe on whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher. Enough for now ,just trying to clarify, God bless
