Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Elin]

Not to be rude, but this is what you said:


This says to me: God blinded (etc...) them and because God blinded them, they are held accountable for that blindedness. To me, the way you are saying it is that God blinded them so that He could hold them accountable for that blindness instead of their sin.

Then let me be clear.

They are held accountable for the blindness that caused God to harden them in that blindness.

It's time to reckon with:

Mk 4:11-12 - "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that

'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

The decree has gone forth, the door is shut (Mt 25:10),
and Zion has already been judged.

For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then let me be clear.

They are held accountable for the blindness that caused God to harden them in that blindness.

any one as dizzy as I am trying to read this??

 

[Elin]

I dont feel like laboring over every post so i need to watch my posts.

Okay, I'll try to keep it brief.

1) I said we are in the consequences of Adams sin.
Because we are sinners. Thats what Paul was laboring. We are NOT responsible for Adams sin. He was. I know the doctrine.
And i know your point. I just didnt like how you worded it. I understand the federal head an all i just dont talk theological

2) Of coarse you know i dont like Romans 9 used willyNilly. But if you must id sure like you to quit misusing it to teach,

"For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God."

3) You tell the story as if God hardens whomever then is glorified in unjustice and you call it justice. How odd and sad that is.
read the whole text.....It says "what if"

4) Your idea that God hardens people is true. But when? After they are reprobate. Past redeemable. For not receiving the
Love of the truth. You tell a different story, then


5) you imply to folks if they were the real elect they would see no problem.

6) Ha. I see a problem. Its nuts and unbiblical. Well ill say its Half biblical. Since you only read half the text.

1) I don't do "federal head," I do Ro 5:12-21, where Paul establishes that just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, so Adam's sin/guilt is imputed to us, which is the sin that caused death between Adam and Moses.
Study it.

2) I appreciate that you don't like, "It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God," but what is not Biblical or untrue about it?

And it's not about Ro 9, it's about what Jesus said. Have you reckoned with:

Mk 4:11-12 - "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.
But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that (indicates purpose)
'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

They are hardened so that they cannot repent, just as Pharoah was hardened so that he would not listen (Ex 4:21).

3) You do not understand what is said.
God justice is glorified in the condemnation of his enemies (Ro 5:10).
That is pure Bible.

It is just that God condemn the unjust rebels, therefore,
"it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God."

That is pure Bible.

4) No one is past redeemable to an omnipotent sovereign God.

5) Again, you do not understand what is said.
You'll have a hard time showing I said that.

6) You seem to think Ro 9 is the text for everything with which you disagree.
Ro 9 is not the text I am using.

 

[Elin]

They are held accountable for the blindness that caused God to harden them in that blindness.

any one as dizzy as I am trying to read this??

Sorry you are having trouble with plain Biblical truths.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry you are having trouble with Biblical truths.

biblical truths?? lol.. I think it is more your truths

lol..

Do you know what Harden means? Because the literal interpretation of that word makes what you just said dizzying, "ie... it does not make sense"

 

[Elin]

biblical truths?? lol.. I think it is more your truths

lol..

Sorry you don't agree that because of their unbelief, God hardened Israel in that unbelief.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry you don't agree that because of their unbelief, God hardened Israel in that unbelief.

that does not answer my question.. What does the word harden mean??

what does it mean to harden ones unbelief?

 

[cfultz3]

They are held accountable for the blindness that caused God to harden them in that blindness.

It's time to reckon with:

Mk 4:11-12 - "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that

'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

The decree has gone forth, the door is shut (Mt 25:10),
and Zion has already been judged.

For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

In order words: one will face God for the blindness that caused Him to harden them in that blindness.

How about this: each person will be held accountable for their own actions.

One holds man accountable while the other will have God judging them because of something He did.

As speaking of the Jews, it would seem to be that God has offered to give them that heart of flesh through Christ:

Mar 1:4-5 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.​

Are you saying that the Jews are left to be unjust so that God's justice is glorified? Let us not forget:

God has not fully abandoned the Jews to be His instrument of justice. In Him dealing with them, He was patient and long suffering but it was their sins which drove Him away. But, as with any merciful God, if they confess their sin, He’ll forgive them just like He always has.

Is this not true:

Hos 5:15 I (God) will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.​

And when will they repent and seek His face:

When the time comes that both Judah and Jerusalem is under seize (Zec 12:2) by those who wish to divide it (v3) that God:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.​

And what will God do when they have looked upon the One the have pierced:

Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.​

Which blood:

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.​

Certainly, God has not tossed away Zion:

Joe 3:16-17 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
​

 

[Abiding]

Okay, I'll try to keep it brief.


1) I don't do "federal head," I do Ro 5:12-21, where Paul establishes that just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, so Adam's sin/guilt is imputed to us, which is the sin that caused death between Adam and Moses.
Study it.

2) I appreciate that you don't like, "It is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God," but what is not Biblical or untrue about it?

And it's not about Ro 9, it's about what Jesus said. Have you reckoned with:

Mk 4:11-12 - "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.
But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that (indicates purpose)
'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

They are hardened so that they cannot repent, just as Pharoah was hardened so that he would not listen (Ex 4:21).

3) You do not understand what is said.
God justice is glorified in the condemnation of his enemies (Ro 5:10).
That is pure Bible.

It is just that God condemn the unjust rebels, therefore,
"it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God."

That is pure Bible.

4) No one is past redeemable to an omnipotent sovereign God.

5) Again, you do not understand what is said.
You'll have a hard time showing I said that.

6) You seem to think Ro 9 is the text for everything with which you disagree.
Ro 9 is not the text I am using.

1)I never had a problem understanding it Elin. I didnt like how you worded it. Study what?

2)Im not at all having any problem with what you are saying. Its what you are leaving out. Example Mark 4:11-12 needs Isaiah chapter 1-6 to understand. And Romans 9 also needs an understanding of Israels history. Your leaving out the good stuff. God calling people to salvation. Giving them way more mercy than i can understand, then He hardens "their hardened heart" and closes their eyes that "they have closed". And He doesnt let them understand or hear with their ears and be saved, since they totally turned away. Just like Pharoah.

Elin you tell it like this: God hardens people so they will be damned in their hardness so He can be glorified in His justice. Which isnt just. Rather than teach His justice from the bible and show how, He hardens whom He chooses, and that He chooses those who harden their hearts and deny Him and His truth. Thats Gods justice.

In other words here is the order
God chose Abe, etc then Israel, gave His word, etc
Israel turned against the Lord and filled themselves with sin and idoltry etc. He corrected them over and over.
Even the quote from Isaiah in Mark4 is from Isaiahs last call for them to turn back.
THEN the Lord hardened them, as a judgement, and used them for greater purposes.
Jesus was explaining that to His disciples in Mk4
Just like was said about not entering Canaan until"n the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." Israels sin was full. Yet still those who were not in a state of apostasy could believe.

Elin the way you write the order, is stated differently. Yours makes it sound like God hardens or blinds, so a person will not believe so that God can have people who are blind so He can be glorified in His justice. Which would NOT be just. You have done it enough for me to know thats what you mean. And that is NOT biblical. And that does not glorify God.
Yes, God is glorified in His justice. What you teach is neither just or biblical.

4)
5) I could fetch post where you said that. But if you claim you didnt, then it wasnt your intent and ill drop it.
6) Silly statement, I only disagreed in that you were not teaching Romans 9 correctly and using few verses out of context.
Making absurd doctrines from it.

Elin if all you were saying is that God will be glorified in punishing the unbelieving, Id agree. Totally. But thats NOT what your saying. If it is. You need to say it differently. Take out some of your wrongheaded info and add more of what the bible teaches about His longsuffering and mercies first. And peoples rejection and how they harden their hearts and refuse to see before He ever hardens or blinds them, and uses them for His purposes.

 

[Abiding]

Elin i understand that you think what your teaching is true. And that any who oppose it just havnt studied the
bible like you have, and just dont understand the truth. I also can see that your not going to learn, or be easily
moved from your position.

I really dont mind some dialogue with you. But i do ponder what good it will do. Maybe some is good, i dont know.
I just want you to know that i wont dialogue just to argue my position. Or just to attack you or your position.
This is a bible forum. And sometimes i do like being involved showing what the bible says about Gods nature and the
nature of the gospel.

 

[Elin]

that does not answer my question.. What does the word harden mean??

what does it mean to harden ones unbelief?

It means pretty much what it says, and it doesn't change anything I've said.

I will harden (Heb: chazaq--to strengthen) his heart (Ex 4:21).

Pharoah's heart was hardened (Heb: chazaq--to be or become hard, strong). (Ex 7:22)

He hardens (Gr: skleruno--to stiffen, make dry) whom he wants to harden (Ro 9:18).

Israel has experienced a blindness (Gr: porosis--hardness) in part (Ro 11:25).

 

[Elin]

Then let me be clear.

They are held accountable for their blindness that caused God to harden them in their blindness.

It's time to reckon with:

Mk 4:11-12 - "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables, so that

'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

The decree has gone forth, the door is shut (Mt 25:10),
and Zion has already been judged.

For it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

In order words: one will face God for the blindness that caused Him to harden them in that blindness.

How about this: each person will be held accountable for their own actions.

One holds man accountable while the other will have God judging them because of something He did.

That was clarified above.

As speaking of the Jews, it would seem to be that God has offered to give them that heart of flesh through Christ:

Yes, when God removes his hardening, they will be able to repent.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It means pretty much what it says, and it doesn't change anything I've said.

I will harden (Heb: chazaq--to strengthen) his heart (Ex 4:21).

Pharoah's heart was hardened (Heb: chazaq--to be or become hard, strong). (Ex 7:22)

He hardens (Gr: skleruno--to stiffen, make dry) whom he wants to harden (Ro 9:18).

Israel has experienced a blindness (Gr: porosis--hardness) in part (Ro 11:25).

so then you agree that God hardens by strengthening, or giving power to ones belief? (makes it more believable in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?)

How does scripture state he does this?

 

[Elin]

1)I never had a problem understanding it Elin. I didnt like how you worded it.

Please show how my wording in regard to Ro 5:12-21 is not Biblical.

Your leaving out the good stuff. God calling people to salvation. Giving them way more mercy than i can understand, then He hardens "their hardened heart" and closes their eyes that "they have closed". And He doesnt let them understand or hear with their ears and be saved, since they totally turned away. Just like Pharoah.

Precisely what I stated.

Elin you tell it like this: God hardens people so they will be damned in their hardness

Review Mk 4:11-12.

Judicial hardening is damnation.

It couldn't be any plainer than in the eternal destiny of all the unbelieving Jews whom God has hardended since Christ.

I'm sorry you don't like the sound of all that, but you'll have to take it up with God.

And review again what I actually stated.

How it "sounds" is irrelevant to the truth.

You make it sound like God hardens or blinds, so a person will not believe

I am not responsible for how it "sounds" to you.
I am responsible only for what I actually state to you.

Elin if all you were saying is that God will be glorified in punishing the unbelieving, Id agree. Totally. thats NOT what your saying.

Then we are in complete agreement.

More careful and objective examination of what I actually state is in order.

It will reduce the number of meritless objections.

 

[Elin]

Elin i understand that you think what your teaching is true. And that any who oppose it. . .just dont understand the truth. I also can see that your not going to learn, or be easily moved from your position.

And how is that different from you?

 

[Elin]

so then you agree that God hardens by strengthening, or giving power to ones belief? (makes it more believable in spite of all the evidence to the contrary?)

You mean Biblical unbelief, right?

 

[Abiding]

Please show how my wording in regard to Ro 5:12-21 is not Biblical.

Precisely what I stated.
Review Mk 4:11-12.

Judicial hardening is damnation.

It couldn't be any plainer than in the eternal destiny of all the unbelieving Jews whom God has hardended since Christ.

I'm sorry you don't like the sound of all that, but you'll have to take it up with God.

And review again what I actually stated.

How it "sounds" is irrelevant to the truth.


I am not responsible for how it "sounds" to you.
I am responsible only for what I actually state to you.


Then we are in complete agreement.

More careful and objective examination of what I actually state is in order.

It will reduce the number of meritless objections.

Ok then it is sounding more like i may be misunderstanding what you have said.
Please quit saying that Im finding it hard to believe "the truth" Or not "liking it."
Thats just to selfserving for you to continue saying that to people.

Later ill glean from past posts so we can review what i am contending.
Hopefully it has been a misunderstanding on my part. But i dont think so.
But if it is my misunderstanding on my part i would simply be joyous for that.

 

[Abiding]

And how is that different from you?

Time for work. At this point im not certain there is a difference.
hopefully its just my feeble mind at fault here. Lets hope

 

[Elin]

Ok then it is sounding more like i may be misunderstanding what you have said.
Please quit saying that Im finding it hard to believe "the truth" Or not "liking it."
Thats just to selfserving for you to continue saying that to people.

Maybe it's just true.

Later ill glean from past posts so we can review what i am contending.

Please don't present anything that we have already resolved.

Hopefully it has been a misunderstanding on my part. But i dont think so.
But if it is my misunderstanding on my part i would simply be joyous for that.

Get ready for some serious joy.

 

[Abiding]

Maybe it's just true.


Get ready for some serious joy.

Cute