Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)
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When I said "Speaking in tongues is worked out through the spirit (the gift of holy spirit each believer receives when he/she is born again)" what I meant was that each born again believer receives the gift of holy spirit within at the time he/she is born again.
In 1 Cor 12:11 we read But all these worth that one and the selfsame Spirit …
But all these (the manifestation enumerated in vss 8-10 - word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues)
worketh - (Greek energei from energéō, which means energize, working within
that one and the selfsame Spirit - it is the Holy Spirit which energizes that gift of holy spirit within each believer to bring about the manifestation of the Spirit.
1 Cor 12:11 basically repeats and corroborates what is written at the end of 1 Cor 12:6 but it is the same God which worketh all in all (all operations are energized by God).
When I stated:
"When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying"
I meant that it is that gift of holy spirit which the believer receives at the time he/she is born again.
We become children of God when we are born again. God gives us the gift of holy spirit.
The one and the selfsame Spirit energizes that gift of holy spirit and the result is the manifestation of the Spirit.
That gift of holy spirit is referred to as incorruptible seed in 1 Peter 1:23.
It is referred to as the "new man" in Eph 4:24 and Col 3:10.
It is referred to as the "inward man" in Rom 7:22, 2 Cor 4:16.
Inasmuch as the manifestation is energized within the believer by that one and the selfsame Spirit (1 Cor 12:11), and it is the same God which worketh all in all (1 Cor 12:6), you may want to rephrase your statement.
In 1 Cor 12:11 we read But all these worth that one and the selfsame Spirit …
But all these (the manifestation enumerated in vss 8-10 - word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues)
worketh - (Greek energei from energéō, which means energize, working within
that one and the selfsame Spirit - it is the Holy Spirit which energizes that gift of holy spirit within each believer to bring about the manifestation of the Spirit.
1 Cor 12:11 basically repeats and corroborates what is written at the end of 1 Cor 12:6 but it is the same God which worketh all in all (all operations are energized by God).
When I stated:
"When a person speaks in tongues, it is the spirit praying"
I meant that it is that gift of holy spirit which the believer receives at the time he/she is born again.
We become children of God when we are born again. God gives us the gift of holy spirit.
The one and the selfsame Spirit energizes that gift of holy spirit and the result is the manifestation of the Spirit.
That gift of holy spirit is referred to as incorruptible seed in 1 Peter 1:23.
It is referred to as the "new man" in Eph 4:24 and Col 3:10.
It is referred to as the "inward man" in Rom 7:22, 2 Cor 4:16.
Inasmuch as the manifestation is energized within the believer by that one and the selfsame Spirit (1 Cor 12:11), and it is the same God which worketh all in all (1 Cor 12:6), you may want to rephrase your statement.
It sounds like you're saying that Paul, prior to his conversion, had a natural ability with languages that is now a spiritual gift, which would only be 'available' to Christians. That doesn't follow; many nonbelievers are polyglots.
In your second paragraph, it sounds like you're saying that the call to ministry ended when the canon of Scripture was completed.
Care to re-word these statements?
In your second paragraph, it sounds like you're saying that the call to ministry ended when the canon of Scripture was completed.
Care to re-word these statements?
I do not need to re-word clearly written statements. I said clearly that any man called to the ministry needs to go to school and obtain an education to equip him for the ministry God has called him to fill.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all
So now you're claiming Paul spoke in tongues in a manner not the same as the apostles? And thanked God he did so???
What is so hard to understand? You have a misconception of tongues in the NT. Paul was grateful for his education and the way that God used him to minister the gospel to so many people.
I have only what you make public. I find no example of biblical prayer that is done without knowledge. Prayer is described as a labor.
You imply such when you praise prayer without knowledge.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That's right, but it's irrelevant to speaking in tongues.
Paul clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2) and that his understanding is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14). He also stated that he spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18). And he said in 1 Cor 13:1 that tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
Also, the Bible never says that tongues is unknowable. But it does say that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying.
You may have clearly stated it, but where is that in the Bible?
Apparently Peter and John never got the memo:
Acts 4:
13) Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Paul clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2) and that his understanding is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14). He also stated that he spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18). And he said in 1 Cor 13:1 that tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
Also, the Bible never says that tongues is unknowable. But it does say that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying.
You may have clearly stated it, but where is that in the Bible?
Apparently Peter and John never got the memo:
Acts 4:
13) Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
That was probably true. But Paul also spoke in tongues.
When a person speaks in tongues, he knows he is speaking in tongues. But he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2). His understanding is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14).
Don't confuse knowledge with understanding. When a person speaks in tongues, he knows he is speaking in tongues, but he does not understand what he is saying.
Tongues = dialektos = glossa, = dialects and language of different nations.
So, if you can speak French, English, German and Spanish at the same time, then you may be speaking in tongues. But if you can't, your NOT.
It was necessary for this to happen for the dispersed Jew's of different nations, to understand, together, and take the message to the different language nations. They didn't just blurt noises and mumble.
So, if you can speak French, English, German and Spanish at the same time, then you may be speaking in tongues. But if you can't, your NOT.
It was necessary for this to happen for the dispersed Jew's of different nations, to understand, together, and take the message to the different language nations. They didn't just blurt noises and mumble.
Yet you did not comment in 1 Corinthians 7:11 for why and when those manifestations of the Spirit was to come; to profit the body of Christ as in "withal" and not individually as the OP is contending.
Some clarification here is needed, because you lost me there in that quote.
Are you saying that every believer has the gift of the Spirit at salvation when they are born again where the Holy Spirit can energize the gift of the Holy Spirit so they can pray in tongues?. If so, isn't that not like saying that all believers can pray in tongues, but not every one will realize this because it is whenever the Holy Spirit energize that gift of the Spirit?
Some tongue speakers try to work around scripture by saying that it is their spirit that is praying in tongues and not the Holy Spirit, but by doing so, they only make their defense of using tongues privately that much harder to be accepted as coming from God.
So basically, you are saying that every born again believer can pray in tongues whenever the Holy Spirit energizes that gift?
No wonder wolfwint & I misread you. You are not saying that all will speak in tongues but every born again believer will be able to pray in tongues whenever the Holy Spirit feels like energizing that gift.
To that, you are still wrong.
To all that reads this; just because you have never prayed in tongues, it does not mean you do not have the Holy Spirit. God wants us to pray and know what we had prayed for so we can give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers.
There is no profit to individuals when they cannot know what that tongue did to benefit them privately unless another had interpret that tongue to them for them to understand and thus the tongue be fruitful to the tongue speaker.
Matthew 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
So it is baloney to believe that any one needs to pray in tongues when the Father knows before we ask anything in normal prayer. It is by far more glory to God to pray normally for the Father to get genuine thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayers than not to know anything at all by praying in tongues.
That was probably true. But Paul also spoke in tongues.
Paul would never promote such an activity. Paul is writing to correct this behavior not promote it.
More silliness. Knowledge leads to understanding which then leads to wisdom. Solomon wrote this in the Proverbs.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
U
Do you agree Paul is writing to correct behaviour?
I still am not clear how the group cannot be edified without understanding but the individual is edified without understanding.
The hug is not a good analogy, you have circumvented understanding and made it about feelings, edification is not about feelings is it?
I still am not clear how the group cannot be edified without understanding but the individual is edified without understanding.
The hug is not a good analogy, you have circumvented understanding and made it about feelings, edification is not about feelings is it?
I believe you meant, "uninterpreted", and your comment is refuted by 1 Cor 14:4 "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself". Yes, edification of the church is greater; that is not contested.
Pagan worship practices are irrelevant. Paul is not referencing them in these chapters. The word "mysteries" simply means "things unknown to men". There is no esoteric meaning to it in this context.
12:7 gives a general purpose for the gifts. It doesn't preclude edification of the individual within the body. When one person receives healing, do all receive healing? Paul is explaining how to use the manifestation properly in the church. If Paul were simply condemning its abuse, he would not likely have summarized the passage by saying, "and do not forbid speaking in tongues."
Since you seem to believe that "edifies" is a bad thing, find the word (or any variant) in Scripture that is clearly negative, not counting this one which you claim to be negative.
Paul states that when a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself. The context suggests that without interpretation, the church is not edified, but it doesn't even hint that it is in any way injured. Further, the context makes it clear that the church is edified when the tongues-message is interpreted. Nothing further is stated regarding the whole group; to answer your question further, I would have to resort to arguing from silence.
If someone (whom you appreciate!) gives you a hug when you're feeling down, do you feel better? Are you 'edified'? Do you understand it? Does your mind rationally process everything that happens in your body and your inner being when you receive a hug? Paul says that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker, and edification is a good thing. I don't need to understand everything rationally to accept the validity of it.
As to your last sentence, "Yet this is not allowed correct?" Is it allowed incorrect? Yes, I'm being a grammar Nazi.
Pagan worship practices are irrelevant. Paul is not referencing them in these chapters. The word "mysteries" simply means "things unknown to men". There is no esoteric meaning to it in this context.
12:7 gives a general purpose for the gifts. It doesn't preclude edification of the individual within the body. When one person receives healing, do all receive healing? Paul is explaining how to use the manifestation properly in the church. If Paul were simply condemning its abuse, he would not likely have summarized the passage by saying, "and do not forbid speaking in tongues."
Since you seem to believe that "edifies" is a bad thing, find the word (or any variant) in Scripture that is clearly negative, not counting this one which you claim to be negative.
Paul states that when a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself. The context suggests that without interpretation, the church is not edified, but it doesn't even hint that it is in any way injured. Further, the context makes it clear that the church is edified when the tongues-message is interpreted. Nothing further is stated regarding the whole group; to answer your question further, I would have to resort to arguing from silence.
If someone (whom you appreciate!) gives you a hug when you're feeling down, do you feel better? Are you 'edified'? Do you understand it? Does your mind rationally process everything that happens in your body and your inner being when you receive a hug? Paul says that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker, and edification is a good thing. I don't need to understand everything rationally to accept the validity of it.
As to your last sentence, "Yet this is not allowed correct?" Is it allowed incorrect? Yes, I'm being a grammar Nazi.
When Paul spoke in tongues, he did not understand what he was saying (1 Cor 14:2: READ THE VERSE). When a person speaks in tongues, his understanding is unfruitful (1 Cor 14:14: READ THE VERSE).
Please read 1 Cor 14. Paul was not condemning speaking in tongues, he was correcting was the Corinthians' improper use of speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Please read 1 Cor 14. Paul was not condemning speaking in tongues, he was correcting was the Corinthians' improper use of speaking in tongues.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Speaking to them in their native tongue as it happened on the day of Pentecost. When it is babbling nonsense, you will get that look. It is Biblical in all respect.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]23 [/SUP]If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
So will a visitor see one using tongues privately and thinking that person as mad. That is why God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Otherwise, tongue speakers are just reveling to get that look.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]23 [/SUP]If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
So will a visitor see one using tongues privately and thinking that person as mad. That is why God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.
1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Otherwise, tongue speakers are just reveling to get that look.
While that did happen on the day of Pentecost, it is never guaranteed, and almost never happens, which is why when tongues is spoken in public, it must be interpreted.
Tongues is never "babbling nonsense".
Your understanding of tongues is not biblical at all.
Which is why tongues, when spoken in public, must be interpreted, and it is to be done one at a time, in order.
If a person is speaking in tongues privately, nobody knows he is doing it except the person speaking to himself.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Paul is quoting Isaiah, and Isaiah is not a prophecy of speaking in tongues.
Nobody I know "revels to get that look". You're just being insulting.
Tongues is never "babbling nonsense".
Your understanding of tongues is not biblical at all.
Which is why tongues, when spoken in public, must be interpreted, and it is to be done one at a time, in order.
If a person is speaking in tongues privately, nobody knows he is doing it except the person speaking to himself.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Paul is quoting Isaiah, and Isaiah is not a prophecy of speaking in tongues.
Nobody I know "revels to get that look". You're just being insulting.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
When people speak in tongues to themselves, nobody else knows.
Your "mad" reference comes from 1 Cor 14:23, where everyone is speaking in tongues out loud at once, and nobody is interpreting.
4) He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
When people speak in tongues to themselves, nobody else knows.
Your "mad" reference comes from 1 Cor 14:23, where everyone is speaking in tongues out loud at once, and nobody is interpreting.