I believed in present-day miracles long before I heard of Craig Keener. It has a lot to do with personal observation and experience. However, since you are unlikely to accept testimony from one person, perhaps a collection of testimonies from an array of sources will help. You're free to disregard them, of course, but continuing to assert that miracles don't happen today, when you won't even check out the evidence, is intellectually dishonest.
Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)
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There is a difference between the manifestation and that which is learned through exposure to or study of foreign languages.
I have to disagree – it’s just the ability or the propensity to speak various languages. Same with the translation of same.
Based upon what you claim to be speaking in tongues, your statement makes no sense.
In Post #258 you claim that "when one is ministering … s/he will need to learn the language spoken ('speak with new tongues')".
In Post #267 you stated that the manifestation of kinds of tongues was merely "a particular "knack" for something specific, music, math, science, languages, fixing cars, etc.".
So on the one hand, it appears you believe the manifestation of the Spirit is nothing more than a natural inclination or ability to do something.
Which completely contradicts your statement above where you state "they don't speak my language and thus don't understand a word I'm saying".
If the manifestation of kinds of tongues is nothing more than you learning the language of the locale where you go to minister, how would they "not understand a word" you are saying? You just took the time to learn their language so of course they would understand what you're saying.
I think you’re getting two different situations mixed – the ‘unknown language I’m praying in is my native language. It is unknown to the audience; thus, my understanding of it (i.e. the fact I understand it), produces no fruit (in others -as they don’t speak it and have no clue what I’m saying).
Doesn’t have anything to do with ministering. It’s in reference to the language issues in Corinth.
And, just to clarify, learning a foreign language through study or exposure in order to minister on the mission field is not the manifestation of kinds of tongues.
The ‘manifestation of kinds of tongues’ is just the ability of speaking/learning various languages.
With respect to the two passages frequently quoted, I would respectfully argue that for tongue-speakers, 1 Cor. 14:2 can ONLY be understood as no one understanding what’s being said (including the speaker), and 1 Cor. 14:14 can ONLY be understood that the language spoken is not understood by the speaker. It seems it’s one of the few ways modern tongues are typically ‘legitimized’, so to speak.
It’s only in the early 1900’s after Parham realized that what his students were producing was not real language, that this understanding of modern tongues as some sort of angelic/heavenly/private prayer language came into being.
When taken in light of real language and given the language situation in Corinth, I would argue that there’s no way those two passages can be understood as not referring to real language in a real-life situation.
I have to disagree – it’s just the ability or the propensity to speak various languages. Same with the translation of same.
Based upon what you claim to be speaking in tongues, your statement makes no sense.
In Post #258 you claim that "when one is ministering … s/he will need to learn the language spoken ('speak with new tongues')".
In Post #267 you stated that the manifestation of kinds of tongues was merely "a particular "knack" for something specific, music, math, science, languages, fixing cars, etc.".
So on the one hand, it appears you believe the manifestation of the Spirit is nothing more than a natural inclination or ability to do something.
Which completely contradicts your statement above where you state "they don't speak my language and thus don't understand a word I'm saying".
If the manifestation of kinds of tongues is nothing more than you learning the language of the locale where you go to minister, how would they "not understand a word" you are saying? You just took the time to learn their language so of course they would understand what you're saying.
I think you’re getting two different situations mixed – the ‘unknown language I’m praying in is my native language. It is unknown to the audience; thus, my understanding of it (i.e. the fact I understand it), produces no fruit (in others -as they don’t speak it and have no clue what I’m saying).
Doesn’t have anything to do with ministering. It’s in reference to the language issues in Corinth.
And, just to clarify, learning a foreign language through study or exposure in order to minister on the mission field is not the manifestation of kinds of tongues.
The ‘manifestation of kinds of tongues’ is just the ability of speaking/learning various languages.
With respect to the two passages frequently quoted, I would respectfully argue that for tongue-speakers, 1 Cor. 14:2 can ONLY be understood as no one understanding what’s being said (including the speaker), and 1 Cor. 14:14 can ONLY be understood that the language spoken is not understood by the speaker. It seems it’s one of the few ways modern tongues are typically ‘legitimized’, so to speak.
It’s only in the early 1900’s after Parham realized that what his students were producing was not real language, that this understanding of modern tongues as some sort of angelic/heavenly/private prayer language came into being.
When taken in light of real language and given the language situation in Corinth, I would argue that there’s no way those two passages can be understood as not referring to real language in a real-life situation.
Shrume, this has nothing to do with mind up ore not. If the scripture would clear say, that your claim is right I would believe it because its scripture. But scripture doesn' t support your claim.
You are right in saying, that we both will not change our mind. (Yet )
I am glad that in heaven we dont need to have such discussions.
You are right in saying, that we both will not change our mind. (Yet )
I am glad that in heaven we dont need to have such discussions.
Really? Perhaps you would assist me by defining tongues as they are presented in the scripture?
I have a different opinion. You are the one who has no biblical support.
What tongue? An unknowable tongue? A tongue that is not known to the speaker? A tongue in the speaker or a tongue in the hearer?
Confused tongues are a sign of judgment from God.
Gen 11:1 ¶ And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 ¶ And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I have a different opinion. You are the one who has no biblical support.
What tongue? An unknowable tongue? A tongue that is not known to the speaker? A tongue in the speaker or a tongue in the hearer?
Confused tongues are a sign of judgment from God.
Gen 11:1 ¶ And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 ¶ And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes.
Speaking in tongues is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:7-10).
It is a Christian speaking a language he does not know (1 Cor 14:2, 14) as the utterance (words) are given by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking divine secrets to God (1 Cor 14:2).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is edifying himself (1 Cor 14:4).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God (Acts 2:11; 10:46).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15).
God would like all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5).
I know.
Please see above.
The Bible never states that tongues are unknowable. It does say that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). And generally, when Christians meet together, they all have the same known language, and therefore will not understand when a person speaks in tongues. This is why when a Christian speaks in tongues in public, it must always be interpreted.
Yes. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
I don't know what you mean.
Speaking in tongues is not confused tongues.
That is completely irrelevant to the subject of speaking in tongues.
Speaking in tongues is one of the nine manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:7-10).
It is a Christian speaking a language he does not know (1 Cor 14:2, 14) as the utterance (words) are given by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking divine secrets to God (1 Cor 14:2).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is edifying himself (1 Cor 14:4).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is speaking the wonderful works of God, magnifying God (Acts 2:11; 10:46).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is giving thanks well (1 Cor 14:17).
When a person speaks in tongues, he is praying in the spirit (1 Cor 14:14-15).
God would like all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5).
I know.
Please see above.
The Bible never states that tongues are unknowable. It does say that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). And generally, when Christians meet together, they all have the same known language, and therefore will not understand when a person speaks in tongues. This is why when a Christian speaks in tongues in public, it must always be interpreted.
Yes. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
I don't know what you mean.
Speaking in tongues is not confused tongues.
That is completely irrelevant to the subject of speaking in tongues.
Apparently the interpretation of scripture eludes you.
If they all have a language in common why speak in an unknown tongue? You are creating a mystique that is not present in the scripture. It is present in Eastern mysticism.
So it is incumbent upon you to impose meaning to whatever is spoken?
When the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost they spoke but were heard in the language of the hearer. So those tongues were not in the mouth of the speaker but the ears of the hearers.
Precisely what Paul was telling the Corinthians. Speaking without knowledge is speaking in confusion.
Hardly as a systematic study of the scriptures illustrates the significance of the first occurrence of an event in scripture. It is essential to establishing context to what the scripture is teaching. You reject it because it does not fit the context of todays Pentecostal church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If they all have a language in common why speak in an unknown tongue? You are creating a mystique that is not present in the scripture. It is present in Eastern mysticism.
So it is incumbent upon you to impose meaning to whatever is spoken?
When the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost they spoke but were heard in the language of the hearer. So those tongues were not in the mouth of the speaker but the ears of the hearers.
Precisely what Paul was telling the Corinthians. Speaking without knowledge is speaking in confusion.
Hardly as a systematic study of the scriptures illustrates the significance of the first occurrence of an event in scripture. It is essential to establishing context to what the scripture is teaching. You reject it because it does not fit the context of todays Pentecostal church.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Weak, Roger. Why don't you try explaining how I am misinterpreting those scripture?
I gave several scriptural reasons above.
You're grasping at straws. You can't refute what I'm saying, so you're trying to come up with anything to discredit me.
It is incumbent upon the person who speaks in tongues out loud to operate the manifestation of interpretation of tongues to interpret what he just spoke in a tongue. Both speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues are supernatural manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The disciples did not know what they were saying. But the languages they were given to speak were the languages of other people present. That experience is never guaranteed, and almost never happens (but it occasionally does), which is why Paul instructs us that when a person speaks in tongues out loud in the church, he is to interpret, so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5).
Paul did not say that speaking in tongues was confused languages. He did give them proper instruction on speaking in tongues.
The Bible clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
God scattering the nations by confusing their languages has nothing whatsoever to do with speaking in tongues. Nobody ever spoke in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
What happened at Babel is not in the context of speaking in tongues.
I reject it because it is in no way related.
Why don't you try explaining how I am misinterpreting those scripture?I gave several scriptural reasons above.
You're grasping at straws. You can't refute what I'm saying, so you're trying to come up with anything to discredit me.
It is incumbent upon the person who speaks in tongues out loud to operate the manifestation of interpretation of tongues to interpret what he just spoke in a tongue. Both speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues are supernatural manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The disciples did not know what they were saying. But the languages they were given to speak were the languages of other people present. That experience is never guaranteed, and almost never happens (but it occasionally does), which is why Paul instructs us that when a person speaks in tongues out loud in the church, he is to interpret, so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5).
Paul did not say that speaking in tongues was confused languages. He did give them proper instruction on speaking in tongues.
The Bible clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
God scattering the nations by confusing their languages has nothing whatsoever to do with speaking in tongues. Nobody ever spoke in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
What happened at Babel is not in the context of speaking in tongues.
I reject it because it is in no way related.
I do understand what Scripture teaches concerning the manifestation of Holy Spirit.
I understand that the manifestation is the Holy Spirit energizing within the born again one to bring about word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues (1 Cor 12:8-10).
According to you, this is accomplished through secular teaching.
Again, you have no opinion as to the extent of my prayer life and I have asked you to refrain from comment on this issue as you are wholly ignorant concerning my prayer life.
Still can't provide the post, nor will you retract your insinuation. got it : /
And yet we have Paul's words wherein he stated I thank my God I speak with tongues more than ye all (1 Cor 14:18).
And we know Paul was not talking about speaking in tongues in the church congregation as the very next verse tells us that in the church he would rather speak with his understanding.
So, in the church, Paul spoke with his understanding. But in private, he thanked God he spoke in tongues more than all who attended the church at Corinth.
I understand that the manifestation is the Holy Spirit energizing within the born again one to bring about word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, gifts of healing, working of miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, kinds of tongues, interpretation of tongues (1 Cor 12:8-10).
According to you, this is accomplished through secular teaching.
Again, you have no opinion as to the extent of my prayer life and I have asked you to refrain from comment on this issue as you are wholly ignorant concerning my prayer life.
Still can't provide the post, nor will you retract your insinuation. got it : /
And yet we have Paul's words wherein he stated I thank my God I speak with tongues more than ye all (1 Cor 14:18).
And we know Paul was not talking about speaking in tongues in the church congregation as the very next verse tells us that in the church he would rather speak with his understanding.
So, in the church, Paul spoke with his understanding. But in private, he thanked God he spoke in tongues more than all who attended the church at Corinth.
Nope. It's the one and the selfsame Spirit energizing within the born again one; then the manifestation of the Spirit is observed in the physical realm.
The issue / problem with your understanding here is that 1 Cor 14:14 states if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
The person speaking in tongues does not understand what he/she is saying.
When you claim that "(the fact I understand it)", you contradict what is written in 1 Cor 14:14.
Nope. The manifestation of kinds of tongues is the one and the selfsame Spirit working within the born again one:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The issue / problem with your understanding here is that 1 Cor 14:14 states if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
The person speaking in tongues does not understand what he/she is saying.
When you claim that "(the fact I understand it)", you contradict what is written in 1 Cor 14:14.
Nope. The manifestation of kinds of tongues is the one and the selfsame Spirit working within the born again one:
1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
You reject because you cannot accept the biblical fact that tongues are languages. languages existed from Babel forward. Nations who carried Israel into captivity were used of God to bring judgment upon Israel. These nations spoke in tongues to Israel and was a witness to the judgment upon them.
Tongues at Pentecost was a sign to Israel that they were receiving judgment from God. They rejected their Messiah and God used the sign of tongues to make this evident. Remember the crowd calling for the blood of Christ to be upon them and their children?
There is so much more in the bible than three chapters in Corinthians.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Tongues at Pentecost was a sign to Israel that they were receiving judgment from God. They rejected their Messiah and God used the sign of tongues to make this evident. Remember the crowd calling for the blood of Christ to be upon them and their children?
There is so much more in the bible than three chapters in Corinthians.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The apostolic church was a Jewish church. The Jews were first offered the salvation of Christ. Scripture says that signs are for the Jews not the Gentiles. That is why they ended. When they return it will be again to the Jews not to the Gentiles. Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts to provoke and rebuke the Jews for the hardness of their hearts in denying Christ as their Messiah.
Signs do not edify the church as you contend. The church is edified through the preaching and teaching of the word of God once and for all delivered to the saints.
God ministers through the foolishness of preaching to those who are saved.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Signs do not edify the church as you contend. The church is edified through the preaching and teaching of the word of God once and for all delivered to the saints.
God ministers through the foolishness of preaching to those who are saved.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I do accept the fact that tongues are languages.
The manifestation of speaking in tongues did not exist prior to the day of Pentecost.
The Assyrians (I assume that's whom you are referring to.. Isa 28:11-12) did not speak in tongues. They spoke their native language, which the Israelites did not understand. Nobody spoke in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
Absolutely false, Roger. Tongues at Pentecost were proof that the Holy Spirit had been poured out that day.
That's right. But why don't you believe those three chapters in Corinthians?
So far all you have done is tell me I'm wrong and that my interpretation of scripture is poor, and you seek out other areas of the Bible that mention "languages", insisting they are talking about speaking in tongues, when they aren't. Why don't you try giving your explanation of the verses I quoted from 1 Cor 12 and 14?
The manifestation of speaking in tongues did not exist prior to the day of Pentecost.
The Assyrians (I assume that's whom you are referring to.. Isa 28:11-12) did not speak in tongues. They spoke their native language, which the Israelites did not understand. Nobody spoke in tongues before the day of Pentecost.
Absolutely false, Roger. Tongues at Pentecost were proof that the Holy Spirit had been poured out that day.
That's right. But why don't you believe those three chapters in Corinthians?
So far all you have done is tell me I'm wrong and that my interpretation of scripture is poor, and you seek out other areas of the Bible that mention "languages", insisting they are talking about speaking in tongues, when they aren't. Why don't you try giving your explanation of the verses I quoted from 1 Cor 12 and 14?