Spiritual Baptism

turbosixx · Feb 16, 2024

If there is one baptism and it's Spirit, then there should be NO water baptism at all today. That's one too many baptisms.

Johann said:

When the Gentiles received the HS directly from God, we see them then get baptized. Is this water of their physical birth?
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
Water of baptism and receiving the HS. Unless one is born of water and Spirit just as Jesus said.

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

turbosixx said:

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me [as an apostle] to baptize, but [commissioned and empowered me] to preach the good news [of salvation]--not with clever and eloquent speech [as an orator], so that the cross of Christ would not be N1made ineffective [deprived of its saving power].

1Co 1:17 οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|Not γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for ἀπέστειλέν apesteilen|G649|V-AIA-3S|sent με me|G1473|PPro-A1S|me Χριστὸς Christos|G5547|N-NMS|Christ βαπτίζειν baptizein|G907|V-PNA|to baptize, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but εὐαγγελίζεσθαι, euangelizesthai|G2097|V-PNM|to preach the gospel, οὐκ ouk|G3756|Adv|not ἐν en|G1722|Prep|in σοφίᾳ sophia|G4678|N-DFS|wisdom λόγου, logou|G3056|N-GMS|of discourse, ἵνα hina|G2443|Conj|that μὴ mē|G3361|Adv|not κενωθῇ kenōthē|G2758|V-ASP-3S|be emptied of power ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|the σταυρὸς stauros|G4716|N-NMS|cross τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Χριστοῦ. Christou|G5547|N-GMS|Christ.

A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.

Thayer Definition:
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Part of Speech: particle
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word, the absolute negative [compare G3361] adverb

2) "But to preach the gospel." (Greek alla) "But", strongest adversative in the Greek and English language, (euangelizesthai) "to evangelize." This certifies that immersion or water baptism is not a requisite or condition to evangelism or obtaining salvation. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins, according to the Scripture, not an instrument, means, or agency by which salvation is obtained, 1Co_15:1-4; Rom_1:16.

not to baptize. This statement by Paul is fatal to any view which would make ritual water baptism necessary to salvation, for Paul by this statement shows he did not consider water baptism an essential element of the gospel (1Co_1:16). 1Co_1:14, *Joh_4:2, *Act_10:48; **+Act_26:17; **+Act_26:18.
but to preach. T430, 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:21, +Mat_28:19 (T458). *Rom_10:14, *Eph_4:11-13, Col_1:23, *2Ti_4:1-5.
the gospel. **1Co_15:1-4, Mat_4:23; Mat_9:35; *Mat_24:14, Luk_4:18, *Act_10:38-43; Act_20:24-25; Act_28:31, Rom_1:16, Eph_1:13-14.
not with wisdom. *1Co_2:1; *1Co_2:4; *1Co_2:13, Jdg_3:31, +*2Co_4:2; 2Co_10:3-4; 2Co_10:10; 2Co_11:6, *2Pe_1:16.
of. FS29, +Exo_19:6, i.e. eloquent language.
words. or, speech. **2Co_10:10; **2Co_10:11; 2Co_11:6.
lest. **1Co_2:5, *2Co_4:7.
the cross. FS117, +Gen_19:8, Gal_5:11; Gal_6:12; Gal_6:14, Php_3:18.
none effect. 1Co_9:15, +Luk_13:7, Rom_3:3; Rom_4:14, 2Co_9:3, Gal_3:17, Php_2:7 g.

You say Paul NEVER stopped baptizing-Scripture says otherwise dear brother. Do you have a Bible software program you use?
J.

turbosixx · Feb 16, 2024

Johann said:

Rom_9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Should answer your question IF you look up the Scriptures and do some cross referencing.

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev_19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

In your current understanding, does Israel today include Gentiles?

turbosixx · Feb 16, 2024

Johann said:

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me [as an apostle] to baptize, but [commissioned and empowered me] to preach the good news [of salvation]--not with clever and eloquent speech [as an orator], so that the cross of Christ would not be N1made ineffective [deprived of its saving power].

1Co 1:17 οὐ ou|G3756|Adv|Not γὰρ gar|G1063|Conj|for ἀπέστειλέν apesteilen|G649|V-AIA-3S|sent με me|G1473|PPro-A1S|me Χριστὸς Christos|G5547|N-NMS|Christ βαπτίζειν baptizein|G907|V-PNA|to baptize, ἀλλὰ alla|G235|Conj|but εὐαγγελίζεσθαι, euangelizesthai|G2097|V-PNM|to preach the gospel, οὐκ ouk|G3756|Adv|not ἐν en|G1722|Prep|in σοφίᾳ sophia|G4678|N-DFS|wisdom λόγου, logou|G3056|N-GMS|of discourse, ἵνα hina|G2443|Conj|that μὴ mē|G3361|Adv|not κενωθῇ kenōthē|G2758|V-ASP-3S|be emptied of power ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|the σταυρὸς stauros|G4716|N-NMS|cross τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Χριστοῦ. Christou|G5547|N-GMS|Christ.

A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: - + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.

Thayer Definition:
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Part of Speech: particle
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word, the absolute negative [compare G3361] adverb

2) "But to preach the gospel." (Greek alla) "But", strongest adversative in the Greek and English language, (euangelizesthai) "to evangelize." This certifies that immersion or water baptism is not a requisite or condition to evangelism or obtaining salvation. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins, according to the Scripture, not an instrument, means, or agency by which salvation is obtained, 1Co_15:1-4; Rom_1:16.

not to baptize. This statement by Paul is fatal to any view which would make ritual water baptism necessary to salvation, for Paul by this statement shows he did not consider water baptism an essential element of the gospel (1Co_1:16). 1Co_1:14, *Joh_4:2, *Act_10:48; **+Act_26:17; **+Act_26:18.
but to preach. T430, 1Co_1:18; 1Co_1:21, +Mat_28:19 (T458). *Rom_10:14, *Eph_4:11-13, Col_1:23, *2Ti_4:1-5.
the gospel. **1Co_15:1-4, Mat_4:23; Mat_9:35; *Mat_24:14, Luk_4:18, *Act_10:38-43; Act_20:24-25; Act_28:31, Rom_1:16, Eph_1:13-14.
not with wisdom. *1Co_2:1; *1Co_2:4; *1Co_2:13, Jdg_3:31, +*2Co_4:2; 2Co_10:3-4; 2Co_10:10; 2Co_11:6, *2Pe_1:16.
of. FS29, +Exo_19:6, i.e. eloquent language.
words. or, speech. **2Co_10:10; **2Co_10:11; 2Co_11:6.
lest. **1Co_2:5, *2Co_4:7.
the cross. FS117, +Gen_19:8, Gal_5:11; Gal_6:12; Gal_6:14, Php_3:18.
none effect. 1Co_9:15, +Luk_13:7, Rom_3:3; Rom_4:14, 2Co_9:3, Gal_3:17, Php_2:7 g.

You say Paul NEVER stopped baptizing-Scripture says otherwise dear brother. Do you have a Bible software program you use?
J.

You say Paul's gospel doesn't include baptism yet everyone he preached to and believed was baptized.
You say when Jesus said be born of water and Spirit that the water is physical birth, yet everyone we see receive the HS was water baptized.

If you can't see your understanding of scripture doesn't line up with what actually happened, I'm sorry I don't think I can help you.
Enjoyed the discussion.

ResidentAlien · Feb 16, 2024

Personal experience is no cure for dissention. You have dissention over doctrine; that's a given. But there's also dissention over personal experience: one person has one experience and someone else has another. Who's to say what's right? The doctrine of personal experience is its own doctrine really, if you stop and think about it. Gods word contains the truth if people will honestly seek it.

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

turbosixx said:

No-YisraEL is YHVH's peculiar covenant people-Rom 11.
Johann.

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

turbosixx said:

+Gen_1:26, Hendiadys; or, Two for One F/S 657, Two words are used (water, Spirit), but one thing is meant (Spirit).

By this figure water and spirit are joined by "and." There is no of in the Greek, supplied here by the translators. There is no article to either of the two nouns. This figure gives the meaning, "born of water, even the spirit."

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8 (Joh_3:6; Joh_3:8), where only the Spirit (the one thing) is mentioned. The figure may also be understood to mean "born of spiritual water," where the "spiritual water" is, by the figure Metonymy, put for the Holy Spirit Himself, as is clear from Joh_7:38-39, The reference is to the real baptism by the Holy Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering the kingdom of God (Rom_8:9, 1Co_12:13), not to the water of ritual baptism (Act_1:5 note).

And again--

of water, &c. = of water and spirit. No Art. . Not two things, but one, by which the latter Noun becomes a superlative and emphatic Adjective, determining the meaning and nature of the former Noun, showing that one to be spiritual water: i.e. not water but spirit. It is to be rendered "of water-yea, spiritual water". Compare Eph_5:26, and See Joh_7:38, Joh_7:39 and Eze_36:25-27 for the "earthly things" of Joh_3:12.

Shalom-enjoyed the discussion-and correct-you can't help me brother.
J.

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 16, 2024

Johann said:

I like that you post verses and ask the person to search the scriptures,

I'm also a firm believer tho that most people who are saved by faith would at some point get baptised in water.

Because I believe baptism of fire comes after baptism of water.

But now even if for some reason you dont get baptised in water Is God going to abandon you.

Well firstly he sends every child an angel, who will stare back into the face of God, so every child will be aware of his presence, even if there parents don't talk much about God.

Secondly, the faithfull where also kept in the desert for 40 years before entering the promised land,

God worked with his faithful for 40 years.

So faith is sufficient to have his Holy Spirit come upon you.

But I would of thought then that most people would go and get baptised in water, at some point after this, knowing that scriptures says, believe be baptised and be saved.

Because surely the spirit would encourage every believer to read the word of God.

I'm just putting myself in the mind of a believer reading there bible at home, away from opinion of other people.

Surely these simple minded people would associate reading the verse, that says, believe and be baptised and be saved to being baptised in water,

Surely since most verses surrounding, being baptised generally speaks of water.

What would most think when they read that one verse for them self's away from opinion.

Would most people think it means water

Wansvic · Feb 16, 2024

Johann said:

"elementary teachings about the Christ"
NKJV"the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ"
NRSV"the basic teachings about Christ"
TEV"the first lessons of the Christian message"

The Greek term archē has a large semantical field . The basic thrust is the beginning of some thing (the first cause of authority/rule). It is the contextual opposite of teleios ("maturity" Heb. 6:1b).

The problem of understanding this phrase is that the principles enumerated in Heb. 6:1-2 do not relate to the Messiah as much as traditional teachings of Judaism. This is one of the textual reason for the supposition that the book was written to a Jewish synagogue audience (cf. Heb. 10:25) of both believing and unbelieving Jews (cf. R. C. Graze, No Easy Salvation).

Wherefore (dio). Because of the argument already made about the difficulty of the subject and the dulness of the readers.

Let us cease to speak (aphentes ton logon). Second aorist active participle of aphiēmi, to leave off or behind.

Diametrically opposed to what you are saying--^^^^^^^

Of the first principles of Christ (tēs archēs tou Christou). Objective genitive Christou (about Christ). “Leaving behind the discussion of the beginning about Christ,” another way of saying again ta stoicheia tēs archēs tōn logiōn tou theou of Heb_5:12.

For emphasis.

And press on (kai pherōmetha). Volitive present subjunctive passive, “Let us be borne on” (both the writer and the readers). The Pythagorean Schools use pherōmetha in precisely this sense of being borne on to a higher stage of instruction. Bleek quotes several instances of Greek writers using together as here of aphentes pherōmetha (Eurip., Androm. 393, for instance).

Unto perfection (epi tēn teleiotēta). Old word from teleios mature, adults as in Heb_5:14. Only twice in N.T. (here and Col_3:14).

Let us go on to the stage of adults, not babes, able to masticate solid spiritual food. The writer will assume that the readers are adults in his discussion of the topic.

Not laying again the foundation (mē palin themelion kataballomenoi). The regular idiom for laying down the foundation of a building (themelion, Luk_6:48.). The metaphor is common (1Co_3:11) and the foundation is important, but one cannot be laying the foundation always if he is to build the house.

There are six items mentioned here as part of the “foundation,” though the accusative didachēn in apposition with themelion may mean that there are only four included in the themelion. Two are qualitative genitives after themelion (metanoias and pisteōs). What is meant by “dead works” (apo nekrōn ergōn) is not clear (Heb_9:14), though the reference may be to touching a corpse (Num_19:1.; Num_31:19). There are frequent allusions to the deadening power of sin (Jas_2:17, Jas_2:26; Joh_7:25; Rom_6:1, Rom_6:11; Rom_7:8; Col_2:13; Eph_2:1, Eph_2:5). The use of repentance and faith together occurs also elsewhere (Mar_1:15; Act_20:21; 1Th_1:9).
RWP

Rom_15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Co_3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Co_3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Co_3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Heb_1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb_6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb_9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev_21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

Shalom
J.

Nothing you posted changes what the scripture actually reveals: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit." (Hebrews 6)

Note the statement made in the previous chapter: "And being made perfect, he (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb 5:9)

Wansvic · Feb 16, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

The gospel is not about a only Jesus dying and being raised that’s certainly foundational but the gospel is what he preached as well regarding eternal life in his kingdom repentance and belief of the gospel baptism is just one act of faith we’re meant to change from those in rebellion to those in obedience

We could just run and get baptized and never repent or never believe the gospel at all and it’s not going to help in any way . Repentance comes before baptism obedience follows being born again

How can a person be reborn if their sin has not been remitted?

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 16, 2024

Blain said:

what an astonishing heartfelt testimony absolutely beautiful but it wasn't me and I cannot take any credit it was him always him I was just willing an empty vessel he did the rest but to hear of hopw much he used me when I had no idea he was speaking to you so greatly it brings my heart to joy

This right here is why I was after the truth to see him so strong and to strengthen others who would listen the kingdom the connection of the hearts I thought all I did was in vain but you are proof that even if you only seem to recieve hate or hurt he still willreach others

It seems that he knew what was going to happen to you and I have watched and seen you grow and I was always impressed with how receptive you are not many can be like this so I knew eventually you would grow even stronger than me because you are receptive to him you see with eyes that refuse to stay in one spot you move forwards your growing your listening

Do you remeber the blue eyes we spoke before? at first I thought it was the spirit of God thast makes them glow in that azure blue color but I think it has more to do with sight in the truth funny enough and I may have spoken this before but before when I was first saved I always said to him I wanted to see that I would be willing to give up my own eyes just to see with his then I had a dream where I was saying to Jesus I want to see and in the dream he said he wanted me to see to but three years later my eyes became almost completely blind as if I prophesied my own demise

but you see without losing your sight and you see because you are receptive to him his sheep know his voice and I am beyond proud of you not because you took what I said and went on my side but because looked past the mere words and tuned into him it is always him I can speak and make a fantastic case but if he isn't behind it then it is just garbage

Thanks blain. I've been through a lot through theese last 7 months.

I didn't tell you my wife had cancer when I disappeared 5 months ago because I never wanted to worry you.

She's healed now 😊

But the 3 months leading up to disappearing, you had such a positive influence on my life. That I really did become such a kinder tolerant person.

I really truly believe you helped me. To help my wife beat cancer 😊

Pilgrimshope · Feb 16, 2024

Wansvic said:

What do you mean brother ? That’s part of being reborn new born babies have no sin , neither does someone who is baptized into Christs death for remission of all thier sins, they will only know and do it if they hear what’s in the Bible telling them that’s what it’s for

“baptism for repentance and remission of sins “ is just what it says

Being “ born again “ is a concept not a literal thing but a concept that your embracing a new way of life in Christ Jesus you accept the gospel in other words you believe he is the lord and you become his disciple or in other words he’s a teacher and you believe and learn from and follow after him

You aren’t magically a new person free of temptations and perfect or anything but you have come to faith that jesusbos the truth , the one God sent to save us all from sin and death and hell and damnation and all those terrible things the ot says of all who sin

what I would say is you can receive the Holy Spirit before you ever even hear about being baptized in water. We both know acts ten of course so I won’t bother quoting it but they first received the Holy Spirit and then after that Peter tells them to get baptized in water commands them rather.

you don’t have to be perfect and sinless to receive Gods spirit look at the ot judges like Samson who seems rather lawless and brutal even for his age or any number of examples really.

But also true is that receiving the holy spirit has never promised remission of sins to anyone getting baptized in Jesus name for repentance and remission of sins promises remission of sins

my position brother is that baptism is one but there’s one action that we are meant to partake of as the church on earth believers who believe he died for our sins , and then the other part of the one baptism is Jesus sending his spirit to the person and also the person being identified as a child of God and an hier of Abraham and his covenant for all people through his seed Jesus Christ

baptism also has those two parts as you are put to death with Jesus , buried and also then you are lifted up in his name

“born again “ is a term or concept coming from the understandings like these

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a concept taught there that there’s a new identity for those who were baptized in his name

and how now they are like Jesus was , the children of God in whom God is well pleased filled with his spirit and also having remission of all thier sins behind them and those they will truly repent of ahead as well bieng born as Abraham’s hiers

born again to me is a concept regarding our kind and heart that is made new by the gospel not something a that just happens because we get baptized I probably confuse a lot lately ….

I believe baptism is based on what he said , what he did , and then what his apostles taught in the basic doctrines like baptism for remission of sins

all I was getting at before brother is getting baptized if I don’t repent and believe the gospel wouldn’t help me at all I personally believe everyone should just get baptized for remission of sins with joy but people choose and come to that conclusion their selves

hearing then belief has to come before baptism is all I’m saying so birth would come at belief and maybe delivery lol at baptism idk bro

Sharing scripture about certain subjects seems to help understand what the Bible teaches about those subjects

I think baptism has a physical and also spiritual part like humans we have a body and a spirit but we’re one

water and spirit is my position but I don’t think a believer is gonna lose salvation because they couldn’t or didn’t get baptized either

Pilgrimshope · Feb 16, 2024

Wansvic said:

Also brother I had a seperate question for you regarding baptism because I know this is one of the subjects you particularly study and have a great grasp of

i was wondering what you thought of this mysterious verse and the context Paul’s using it in

So Paul is making this argument regarding some saying there would be no resurrection a

“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:12-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of the points he uses examples rather I perceive anyways is this verse

And I’ll leave some more for context but I’m just wondering what you think of this verse here I personally don’t really know what to make of it

“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:29-34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I can’t reason why Paul would throw in any erroneous thing to support his argument yet there’s Jon other verse I’ve ever read regarding baptism for those who are dead

aim in no way trying to claim this is legitimate doctrine or anything just puzzled and am wondering what you think ? I’m sure you’ve come across it before

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 16, 2024

I'm sure the problem here is people are seeing water baptism as something physical and not spiritual.

The Bible clearly says the dead where raised to life.

Matthew 27:52-53

New International Version

52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

It would make sense that Jesus baptized these people, probably through raising them up through a sea, like the sea.of Galilee or something , after he preached to them in paradise.

In revaluation it says the sea gave up the dead. And then Hades gave up there dead.

So it look like sleeping people go into the sea, and are either raised up in the body of Christ or go to Hades.

So baptism for dead seems possible 😊

So this could me the thief on the cross was baptised to, by being woken up in paradise and raised through a sea.

They could go to Abraham's bosom or straight to heaven.

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 16, 2024

Johann said:

I have just spent the best part of 20 mins looking up all the scriptures you posted

I see things that can happen after being baptised and before being baptised.

It's hard to know exactly what your trying to say.

But what I think im getting is, if you believe all you have to do is believe and the rest will take care of it's self.

But the scripture say believe and be baptised to be saved. ( Two things here not one)

Then the next verse says don't believe and be condemned. ( One thing here)

Notice the second mentions no baptism.

So this means if you believe you get saved by faith. But clearly you also need to be baptised

So being baptised by the Holy spirit into water must equal salvation 😊

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

Hab 2:4 "Look at the proud one, His soul is not right within him, But the righteous will live by his faith [in the true God]. [Rom_1:17; Gal_3:11]

by his faith. 2Ki_12:15 h (faithfully). Isa_28:16, Luk_7:50, Act_13:39; +*Act_16:31, Rom_4:5; Rom_5:1; Rom_11:20, *2Co_5:15.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out [of the inner prison], he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they answered, "Believe in the Lord Jesus [as your personal Savior and entrust yourself to Him] and you will be saved, you and your household [if they also believe]."

Believe on. *Act_2:38; *Act_2:39; **Act_4:12; *Act_8:12; *Act_8:37; +Act_10:43; Act_11:13-14; *Act_13:38; *Act_13:39; Act_15:11, *Isa_45:22, Hab_2:4, +Mar_10:52; *Mar_16:16, Luk_8:12, **Joh_1:12; **Joh_3:15; **Joh_3:16; **Joh_3:36; *Joh_6:29; *Joh_6:40; *Joh_6:47; *Joh_7:37; *Joh_7:38; *Joh_11:25; *Joh_11:26; **Joh_20:31, Rom_3:22-24; *Rom_5:1; *Rom_5:2; **Rom_10:9; **Rom_10:10; 1Co_1:21, *Gal_3:22; *Gal_3:26, **Eph_2:7; **Eph_2:8, Heb_10:39, Jas_2:14, 1Pe_1:21; **1Jn_3:23; **1Jn_5:10-13.

2) "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," (pesteuson epi ton kurion lesoun) "Believe thou (for yourself) on the Lord Jesus." Imperatively, they commanded or exhorted this sinner, who had heard the word, and been convicted that he was not saved, to believe on or place his trust upon the Lord Jesus, with the following assurance for all who seek the Lord, Isa_45:22; Isa_55:6-7; Joh_1:16; Joh_1:18; Joh_5:24; 1Jn_5:10; Act_4:12.

3) "And thou shalt be saved," (kai sothese su) "And thou shalt (personally) be saved," exist in a saved or delivered state or condition, even as all ever saved before him had done, Act_10:43; Rom_1:16; Rom_4:3-5; Rom_4:16.

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, -- There is a contrast in the Greek which the English reader misses. The jailer had addressed the preachers as "lords (kurioi)." They answer, 'There is just one Lord (kurios). Believe in Him, and salvation is yours!'

To "believe" in Jesus as Lord, is not just mentally assenting that He is Lord. It means to "trust" in Him and all that He commands us as the "Lord" of our lives. To confess Him as "Lord" is to obey Him and follow His steps (Joh_14:23; Joh_15:10; and 1Pe_2:21).

and you will be saved, -- The salvation promised is deliverance from the penalty of sin, both in this world and the one to come.

you and your household." -- This means that both the jailer and his family who also believe in the gospel as he does, will be saved.

Here we see the progression of conversion:
Hear Believe Repent Baptism Results-saved
v.32 v.31 v.32 v.33 v.30 saved

J.

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

To make it easy for you-

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few. While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God, it does describe the believer’s position before God in language similar to the 1 Corinthians passage: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and 2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:13. Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of Ephesians 4:5. Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-10; Colossians 2:12).
https://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit...at is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?,-ANSWER

Johann · Feb 16, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

Bit heavy--

Certain groups hold that water baptism is necessary for salvation. This view is held, for example, by the "Church of Christ" and the "Christian Church." The "Church of Christ" asserts that those who have not been baptized for salvation are lost.

This would mean that, throughout Christian history, the vast majority of those who confessed Christ, believed His Word, praised His holy name, and proclaimed His glories to the lost, were never saved! Even those who were martyred for Christ, and those who have translated our Bibles, and those who have given their lives to the mission field to proclaim Christ's glory to the lost, were, almost without exception, never saved and will end up in hell because they did not get baptized for salvation and join the so-called "Church of Christ."

Admittedly, there are passages of Scripture, which on the surface, seem to say that a person must be baptized in order to be saved…

Mark 16:16 – "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
Acts 2:38 – Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 – 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

However, as we examine the Scriptural teaching of baptism and of salvation, we will see that neither baptism nor any other ritual can save us from our sins. Salvation is by God's grace, through faith, apart from works (Ephesians 2:8). God has not ordained water baptism to be a magical ritual by which we may obtain salvation.
What Scripture says about Faith and Salvation.
What must a person do to be saved? Scripture repeatedly answers this question in literally dozens of different passages.

Let's examine one such passage…

Romans 10:8-13 – But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" —that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Notice the apostle's assertion that, if you do two things, you will surely be saved… (1) "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord" and (2) "believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead." If you do these two things, then "you will be saved."

He does not add further requirements. Those who insist that you must be baptized to be saved are thereby rejecting this statement of Scripture, which plainly says that confession and faith are all that is required for the assurance of salvation. (We have a clear example of this in the thief on the cross.)

The apostle continues in verse 10, elaborating on his statement. He speaks first of the heart: "for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness." Next, he speaks of the mouth: "and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." That's it! If the heart believes and the mouth confesses, then the person will be saved, with or without water baptism!

He concludes this section with a quotation from Joel 2:32: "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." Those who call upon God to save them will assuredly be saved. Again, no baptism required!

If the apostle believed that a baptismal ritual was required in addition to faith and confession, then he would surely have said so. Salvation is too important a matter to omit essential ingredients. What in the world could Paul have been thinking, to promise salvation on faith and confession alone, if he fully believed that no one could be saved without the water ritual?

This passage is not an isolated exception. Scripture literally teems with statements that we are saved through faith, apart from legalistic works, or that those who believe will assuredly be saved.

The passages cited below say specifically that the one who believes will assuredly be saved. Not one of these passages says that a person must also receive water baptism. Such passages make it clear that faith alone is sufficient for salvation. Surely, if water baptism were also required for salvation, God would not make statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply believe...

John 3:16 – "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 – "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 20:31 – but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Acts 13:39 – and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

Acts 10:43 – "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:48 – When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 1:16 – For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:3 – For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Romans 4:5 – But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 4:11 – and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

… and many, many more …
Does God Require 4 things for salvation?
Those who teach that water baptism is required for salvation usually keep a list of four items which, they assert, are required for salvation:

Faith
Repentance
Confession
Water baptism
They often deny that we are saved through faith alone.
Those who hold to the fourfold formula of "Faith + Repentance + Confession + Baptism" suppose that each passage which states what is needed for salvation leaves out certain necessary elements, and that we must pool all such statements together, if we wish to find out what God truly requires for salvation.

However, this approach does not really accept any of the statements which God has made about salvation. John 3:16 says that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. It does not say merely that faith is one of many things required in order to be saved. It does not leave open such an interpretation of the passage. It says that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish. Those who claim that they "believe just what the passage says" need to acknowledge that none of the passages listed above leaves room for additional requirements.

So then, why does Scripture sometimes list other things besides faith as necessary for salvation? Why, for example, does Romans 10:8-13 say that confession is also needed?

It is simply because true faith will confess Christ.

The Bible teaches that there is such a thing as counterfeit faith. In the eighth chapter of John, certain Jews came to believe on Jesus. Yet, as Jesus continued speaking with them, it soon became clear that their faith was not genuine, for Jesus accused them of seeking to kill Him:

John 8:30-40 – As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
It is clear that the "faith" which these individuals had was of a different kind than that of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-48) or the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-39) or the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:34).
The purpose, therefore, of adding repentance or confession or baptism to simple faith is not to give a list of things which must added to faith, but to qualify the kind of faith which accompanies salvation. Saving faith is a faith which confesses Christ. Saving faith is a repentant faith. Saving faith is one which seeks to be joined to, or identified with Christ and His people.

http://members.toast.net/puritan/Ar...xt=Does Water Baptism Save? by Mitch Cervinka

Thunderrr-mental · Feb 17, 2024

Johann said:

I Haven't got time to answer all this at the moment. But your not making it easy for me, you've made it hard for yourself

According to scripture it's not heavy, being saved by faith is sufficient to receive salvation after you die.

For this beautifull scripture first.

John 7:37-39

New Living Translation

Jesus Promises Living Water
37 On the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood and shouted to the crowds, “Anyone who is thirsty may come to me! 38 Anyone who believes in me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’”[a] 39 (When he said “living water,” he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him. But the Spirit had not yet been given,[b] because Jesus had not yet entered into his glory.)..

See the scripture clearly says the living water is to be given by the holy spirit, would be after Jesus being crowned in Glory.

There for that glory and all that it represents is in the living water, the Holy spirit gives you.

This is being baptized by the holy spirit, because the holy spirit comes upon you.

But then you have to be baptized with the holy spirit.

The blessing Jesus speaks about here is also the day of pentacost which has not been fulfilled for every one,

Every living person who believes in Jesus has the holy spirit come upon them. And this is what this verse represents.

Then you must Baptized with the Holy spirit, Where by the holy Spirit baptizes you into The resurrected Christ, for the acceptance of faith and to be cleansed,

Made new.

Salvaging or salvation can mean to make new, to make something old new, to cleanse.

Believe, and be saved by faith, receive the spirit and be baptized by the living water of Christ within the spirit that comes upon you, upon belief.

Be baptised by, with the Holy Spirit into the resurrection, to be crowned in his glory, to receive salvation before you die.

Don't get baptised into water by the Holy and receive salvation after you die, hopefully. But more than likely.

Johann · Feb 17, 2024

Thunderrr-mental said:

Not complicated for me-

Water baptism is: An illustration.
Water baptism, like other ordinances of the Bible, involves symbolism. For example, the animal sacrifices depicted the death of Christ on the cross. Circumcision depicted the removal of the sinful nature (Colossians 2:11). In each ordinance, there is an outward physical ritual, and also an underlying spiritual reality of which the ritual is but a shadow or type.

In the Old Testament, it sometimes appeared that these rituals had certain saving merit, in themselves. However, that was never the case…

Hebrews 10:4 – For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Romans 2:28-29 – For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Whenever saving merit was ascribed to these ordinances, it was to be understood that it was the underlying spiritual reality which was really meant, and not the ritual itself.

Many of the Jews did not understand this. The Pharisees, for example, thought they could be made perfect through the ordinances themselves, and this was the basis for their self-righteous confidence, piety and arrogance. Many of them relentlessly persecuted Christ and His apostles for teaching that the ordinances did not possess saving merit.

These ordinances did not possess some magical power to invoke the spiritual reality they symbolized.

The Old Testament Jews did not actually receive a new dose of forgiveness from God each time they brought an animal to be sacrificed. Rather, each sacrifice served as a retelling of the gospel—a reminder that we are sinful and cannot save ourselves—that we need a Redeemer who will lay down His life for us, bearing our sins.

Likewise, when a child was circumcised, this did not actually remove his sinful heart. It only served as a picture of the great work which God performs when He takes away our sinful heart.

Water baptism, as an outward ordinance, involves cleansing with water. It is symbolic of the Holy Spirit's inner work of cleansing the soul. Just like the Old Testament ordinances, this New Testament ordinance is simply a picture of a great work of God in saving us from sin and judgment. The outward cleansing does not accomplish inward cleansing any more than circumcision did. It is a picture, ordained by God, and that is all it is.

When Hebrews 10:20 speaks of "a new and living way," it does not mean that the Old Testament ordinances have been replaced by the New Testament ordinance of water baptism. There would be nothing "new" or "living" about such a salvation—it would be the old Pharisaical paradigm of a magical ritual we can perform to save ourselves.

Jesus Christ is "the new and living way." He is a real, living person (rituals, such as water baptism, have no inherent life to themselves). Jesus tells us that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6). Thus, He alone is the "living way," and His sacrificial death is a new way, because it departs from the legalistic pattern of ordinances which we must observe to be saved. Salvation is something which He has accomplished.

Sometimes, the Bible seems to ascribe saving merit to water baptism. Paul was told to "… Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16). Are we to assume that Paul could actually wash away his sins by taking a bath? Or, are we to understand that water baptism is only a picture of something which God has done for us—by the sacrifice of Christ and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit—when we "call on His name"?

When you claim that the physical ordinance itself has magical powers of spiritual cleansing, you fall into the same trap of ritualism and self-justification that the legalistic Pharisees stumbled into. We must be careful to view the outward ceremony only as a picture of God's mighty work of salvation, and avoid the errors of the Pharisees.

But I have this feeling it is a waste of time.
J.

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