Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

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feedm3

Guest
#61


So, you're completely ruling out the possibility that the Holy Spirit didn't fall on those people because maybe Phillip was also fairly new to this Holy Spirit stuff as well, and just didn't know to lay hands on people to impart the Holy Spirit to them?
Cmon, that does not make much sense. Your saying Philip had the HS, (i.e. knowlege from him etc) and did not know he could lay his hands upon them?

This he was a newbie really does not explain this portion of scripture. Where does the text give this impression?

The text shows Philip could NOT lay his hands upon them. Even Simon noticed it was only given through the laying on of the Apostles hands.




I also don't see how any of this proves ceassationism.
It shows the Apostles only this ability, and implies when they died, so did this ability.

It is not about "proving" it, I am showing you a valid case for why I believe they have ceased. With the answer you just gave to explain acts 8, I am wondering if your really open to study, or just want to debate.

Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case then you have not shown proof that I Cor 13:10 is saying they will cease at the 2nd coming. You must prove the words "that which is perfect" in I Cor 13:10 to mean Jesus. The burden of proof is on you seeing your taking a nueter word and using it to mean a person (Jesus -Masculine) in this one passage.

I can show many examples of "that which is perfect" referring to completeness, of man, through the word of God that is also complete (telios "perfect"). Which I assert this passage means, and is teaching.

I have myself experience and have had friends experience the healing power of God. For instance, a person burned his hand in a fire several years ago. The doctor told him he'd never have feeling in his right hand again due to the nerve damage. Immediately after hands were laid on him, and using Jesus' name, he had feeling in his hand again. I'm not about to say he's faking it just to try and justify unbelief. His healing doesn't contradict scripture, unless you're trying to say that God isn't a healer.
Again, I cant prove or disprove this. I will tell it has no merit, and does not explain Acts 8, or I Cor 13:10.




The gifts don't cease until perfection returns. Last I checked, perfection (Jesus) hasn't returned yet.
Where do you see "when perfection returns" in the passage? You added that.

It says "when that which is perfect has come", showing again, it has not already came once.

"that" never refers to Christ, if so, please show me another example where Christ is "that" instead of "he".

If you take the time to look up the word for "perfect" it means, "complete, mature, full of age", and again is never applied to Christ.

Christ does not need to come to a point of "completeness, maturity," we do, through the complete revelation of God - Col 1:28; II Tim 3:16-f.


Once again, you verify what I said at the start of this. You're not seeing it happen for yourself because a) you block out anything and everything other Christians say about it, and b) you spend more time believing the gifts have ceased than believing you have them.
I believe what the Bible says. And why would that play a role in me not seeing them? The Apostles and Jesus did them openly before all, did not matter what they believed, even some believed it was the power of Satan.

In fact, the purpose of the gifts were to confirm the word. If I dont believe, someone should be able to convince by performing a supernatural act, then I would believe. I dont mean someone you know, or TV, I mean, go to a hospital, start healing the children dying of cancer, go to a grave yard and raise the dead, use these gifts for their purpose, and confirm the word.

No one does this. Except we hear stories about people doing things within their church, and never is it brought out publicly as with the Apostles.

In fact, I have never seen anyone raise someone from the dead, but let me guess, it did happen somewhere in someones church.

I not trying to belittle what you believe, but at the same time, why are these things not done in the same way they were in scripture?


Why is it that Jesus couldn't perform many miracles when he went back to Nazareth? It was because of the people's unbelief, and nothing more.
It did not say he "could not" it said he "would not". Their is a big difference. IF that were the case, why did he perform them in front of those who claimed they were from the power of Satan???

He chose not to show what he could do because of their unbelief. Children believe in Santa, it would not be hard to convince them you could heal them, so what is stopping it?

Why are their children who have died because their parents refused to give them medical treatment, because they believed God would heal them? How much more faith must you have?

It's because God told them in his word the purpose of Gifts, the length of Gifts, and when they would cease. They choose to ignore it, and their child dies for it.





I had hands laid on my and an evil spirit cast out of me, and I completely changed as a person overnight. That is nothing short of a miracle. But if what you're proposing is true, everything contradictory to your proposal, including my personal testimony, would be false.
Again, can prove or disprove, does not help with this discussion. You need to show me from scripture why I Cor 13:10 is pertaining to Christ, and why in Acts 8 Philip needed an Apostle, and why Simon said it was "only through the laying on of the Apostles hands the Holy Ghost was given".



Exactly, you don't expect to be able to do that. That's why you laying your hands on the sick probably wouldn't do anything, because of your unbelief. Once again, Matthew 13:58. Mark 16:17-18 says those signs will follow ALL who believe, not just apostles.
So you do heal? Your saying you can lay your hands on people and heal them from sickness?

You already mentioned that for yourself, in Acts 2 and Acts 10. Why would it take more instances for you to believe it?
Acts 2 - fulfillment of promise to the Apostles - Jn 14-16
Acts 10 - fulfillment of promise to Abraham concerning Gentiles.

Both are specific incidences, that happened for a purpose. Otherwise, why did not the HS just fall on the Samaritans, or those in Acts 19?

Acts 8 and 19 are instances of the HS being imparted.

Acts 2 and 10 are instances of the baptism of the HS, only given once to Jews and Gentile without the laying on of hands showing God made the decision.

In Acts 10, it happened to be a sign for Peter. Read Acts 10: and 11, and you will see it was to show Peter God had chose the Gentiles.

Does he still need to show this?
 
G

GRA

Guest
#62
For organized thought-which I agree with---it's excellently well emphasized and versed, g.r.a. :)
I am not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that you agree with the interpretation? Or, just that you like "the [organized] presentation" of it?

:)

.
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#63
James5:14-16
James 5:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#64
I am not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that you agree with the interpretation? Or, just that you like "the [organized] presentation" of it?

:)

.
Brilliantly said, with exception to our not able to see Jesus through the glass, this is the 'face to face' meeting with Him, someday, it is not with a 'canon' that we meet 'face to face.'

Paul could see Jesus through the glass dimly, when the perfect (man) comes again we shall see Him face to face.

And, yes, the presentation was excellent when I read it then and it's still good in my mind now, g.r.a. God gbless you, Christbro, for your work for Him :)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#65
James5:14-16
James 5:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
Yes but too often people forget what it means when it says "the Lord shall raise him up"

I kind of think of these words:

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.




John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#66
Brilliantly said, with exception to our not able to see Jesus through the glass, this is the 'face to face' meeting with Him, someday, it is not with a 'canon' that we meet 'face to face.'

Paul could see Jesus through the glass dimly, when the perfect (man) comes again we shall see Him face to face.

And, yes, the presentation was excellent when I read it then and it's still good in my mind now, g.r.a. God gbless you, Christbro, for your work for Him :)
Who said anything about "not being able to see Jesus"...? That is not what I meant. I just don't believe that those verses are talking about Jesus the person Himself. (And, I stated that.) It is more "abstract" than that. You asked in the initial post:

2. What is 'perfect to come?' Is it a 'what' even?
The answer is - yes, it is a 'what' not a 'who'...

:)

.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#67
the perfect man, the perfect time. Yes. I see the difference, just pointing out Jesus was the only perfect man, I should have said that, go read my OP, I said Proverbs 4:26? It is all about a 'time.' :)
God bless your bold work for Him, g.r.a.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#68
By the way... I am essentially a Cessassionist. I believe the [miraculous] spiritual gifts are no longer being "exercised" today. However, I do not believe that it is [directly] because of the completion of the canon of scripture.

It is actually "more like - the other way around"...

God - knowing that the [miraculous] spiritual gifts would fade away - made sure that scripture was written, and the canon compiled...

So - there is a "connection" there - just not quite the way people think of it.

:)

.
 
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damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#69
James5:14-16
James 5:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
This would reqiure laying on of hands
Question; God is omnipotent and omnipresent, why does he choose to use us to interceed, witness
ect
 
G

GRA

Guest
#70
As for my "interpretation" -- what it may or may not seem to support is totally "beside the point" - that is my interpretation.

We should not allow "what we think we believe" (or, "want to believe") to interfere with our interpretation of scripture. When considering a particular passage, we should first be only interested in "what is this passage of scripture actually saying" - without influence from "everything else we know" about the scriptures. Comparing scripture to scripture is important - but, that should come later - after we have determined what we believe the passage to be saying...

~ First - answer the question "What does it say?"
~ Then - answer the question "What does it mean?"
~ Then - compare to the rest of scripture to make sure it "agrees" with all of scripture

And, better yet - pray for understanding - that the Holy Spirit may "open your eyes" to the "proper and perfect" meaning of it.

:)

.
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#71
We know the gift of preaching and teaching has not ceased because the Lord has not come back yet
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#72
James5:14-16
James 5:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
This was written during the time this could be done. Yet even so, I am not convinced that this isnt speaking of being sin sick. Look at context, and the result, "15 they shall be forgiven" and 16 "confess faults" that "ye may be healed".

Think about it, why does confessing faults "heal" any? it is because it is speaking of being sick with sin, which leads to death. If not, then a sick person can confess their faults and they should be healed.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#73
This would reqiure laying on of hands
Question; God is omnipotent and omnipresent, why does he choose to use us to interceed, witness
ect
1. Well if it did require laying on of hands, then it would also require an Apostle as in Acts 8 and 19.

2. God chooses to intercede through us because that's what he chooses. If He personally came down and did evertything, there would be no such thing as an unbeliever, and no need for preachers, or the gospel.
 
F

feedm3

Guest
#74
We know the gift of preaching and teaching has not ceased because the Lord has not come back yet
Of course not. Yet I Cor 13 is not about those gifts, it is about the Miraclouis gifts (temporary) contrasted with the Eternal (love).

And in this context it shows the Miraculous were temporary, when that which is "complete, mature, full of age" has come.

And sense Man is able to become "perfect, complete, mature" through the word of God, then it has come - Col 1:28, II Tim 3:15-f.

Jesus has already came, he was perfect as in flawless, yet this is not the word in question, it is "perfect" Greek: Telious, which means complete, and not applied to Christ.

This shows because instead of the masculine pronoun "he" being used, instead it is the neuter, "that".

When THAT which is perfect (complete) which is the "unity of the faith" Eph 4.

The grammar does not support it to mean Christ, neither does the context, or the meaning of perfect used here.

Paul is explicitly telling the Corinthians to stop coveting the gifts that are to cease when the completion comes.

The fact that preaching remains is not a sign that all the gifts in I Cor 12-13 also remain. This chapter was telling us the oppisite, adn was not dealing with all things referred to as gifts, as preaching teaching, but the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, that were here to

1. Confirm the word - Acts 2:1-31

2. Guide the early church in understanding seeing they did not have a complete canon of scripture - Jn 16:13

3. Fullfill prophecy - Joel 2:28-f.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#75
Verse 12:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."


The word 'glass' in this verse is not referring to "window pane glass", but rather, a mirror.

For reference:

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ~ James 1:23

The first part of verse 12 is comparing "a dimly seen reflection" (a
[not-so-clearly-seen] face in a mirror) to "the real thing" (actual 'face to face' - very clearly seen).

'For now we see through a glass, darkly' => "for now, we can only see a dim reflection"

'but then face to face' => "but then, we will be able to truly understand"

'now I know in part' => "now I have a 'limited' understanding"

'but then shall I know even as also I am known' => "then I will have a 'full', 'complete', and 'clear' understanding"
Let me see if I can make this just a bit more clear:

Verse 12 is making an illustration by the comparison of seeing "a dim reflection of a face in a mirror" ("through a glass, darkly") to "a real face" ("face to face") --- and nothing more...

It is NOT talking about anyone actually being "face to face" with anyone - Christ or anyone else...

"a dim reflection of a face" versus "a real face"

"limited understanding" versus "full understanding"

Verse 11 is an "aside" to verse 10.

The word 'For' in verse 12 "refers back" to verse 10.

What "we see" (verse 12) is what changes "when that which is perfect is come" - about which the comparison is being made.

:)

.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#76
By the way... I am essentially a Cessassionist. I believe the [miraculous] spiritual gifts are no longer being "exercised" today. However, I do not believe that it is [directly] because of the completion of the canon of scripture.

It is actually "more like - the other way around"...

God - knowing that the [miraculous] spiritual gifts would fade away - made sure that scripture was written, and the canon compiled...

So - there is a "connection" there - just not quite the way people think of it.

:)

.
GRA,
this is very interesting.
i don't necessarily agree with the 'because' conclusion (haven't heard it before), but the beauty of it is you've got The Lord making His Own decisions about how He will accomplish His will. cessationsim is it's own world of discussion. we agree on the main point. that's huge.

i like the studies:)
zone
 
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megaman125

Guest
#77
Cmon, that does not make much sense. Your saying Philip had the HS, (i.e. knowlege from him etc) and did not know he could lay his hands upon them?

This he was a newbie really does not explain this portion of scripture. Where does the text give this impression?

The text shows Philip could NOT lay his hands upon them. Even Simon noticed it was only given through the laying on of the Apostles hands.


Where does it say it was impossible for Philip to lay his hands on them to recieve the Holy Spirit? You accuse me of adding my interpretation, but yet you do that same thing.

My explaination does have support to it. Look at Acts 8:16, they were only baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus told us to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Philip did not do that. Why didn't he do that? I cannot know for sure, whether it was a lack of knowledge on Philip's part, or just a mistake which he ommitted, or something else.


It shows the Apostles only this ability, and implies when they died, so did this ability.

So what you're telling me is that no one has the Holy Spirit living in them anymore?

Nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case then you have not shown proof that I Cor 13:10 is saying they will cease at the 2nd coming. You must prove the words "that which is perfect" in I Cor 13:10 to mean Jesus. The burden of proof is on you seeing your taking a nueter word and using it to mean a person (Jesus -Masculine) in this one passage.

You claim your own interpretation for 1 Corinthians 13:10 is correct about it relating to ceasationism, but you have not proven your interpretation to be correct. You insert your own double standard saying I have to prove my view while you assume your view is the default and "correct" view.



Again, I cant prove or disprove this. I will tell it has no merit, and does not explain Acts 8, or I Cor 13:10.

I get it, you've made up your mind, and you choose to be set in your ways. I do not wish to join you in that line of thinking, and I'm not going to start plugging my ears and eyes to reality.

Seriously though, what you present is giving me the message, "the Bible is just an ancient book. Just believe that stuff happened in the past, and that's it. It's largely not relevant today. Just believe, no action." Again, this may not be your message, but that's the way you're coming off with this ceasationism.


Where do you see "when perfection returns" in the passage? You added that.

ok, it's "when the perfect comes" not "returns." I admit I made a slight error by not looking up the passage before posting about it.

It says "when that which is perfect has come", showing again, it has not already came once.

That phrase doesn't mean it has not come once before. Do you deny that Jesus came to earth in the flesh?

In fact, the purpose of the gifts were to confirm the word. If I dont believe, someone should be able to convince by performing a supernatural act, then I would believe.

No, our faith is not based on miracles, hence Matthew 13:58. There's also a parable in Luke about this subject.

No one does this. Except we hear stories about people doing things within their church, and never is it brought out publicly as with the Apostles.

Who said it's not "brought out publiclly" or that it "only happens at church." Maybe it just get's bogged down and ignored becasue too many people, both non-Christians and professing Christians plug their ears and eyes to such things and deny them. But once again, you seem to be set in your ways, and you're just going to block out anything contrary.

I not trying to belittle what you believe, but at the same time, why are these things not done in the same way they were in scripture?

They ARE being done in the same ways as in scripture. Again, you just plug your ears and eyes to it.

It did not say he "could not" it said he "would not". Their is a big difference.

And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
Matthew 13:58

Nothing about "would not," that's just something you added.

IF that were the case, why did he perform them in front of those who claimed they were from the power of Satan???

Who did he heal in that passage, one with faith, or was he healing the ones accusing him of being from Satan?

He chose not to show what he could do because of their unbelief. Children believe in Santa, it would not be hard to convince them you could heal them, so what is stopping it?

If you're going to strawman me with this Santa nonsense, then this conversation isn't going to go on much longer.

Why are their children who have died because their parents refused to give them medical treatment, because they believed God would heal them? How much more faith must you have?

That's not what the gifts of healing are about. Your ignorance is astounding, and your mindset seems to be willfully stuck in that mode.
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#78
I don't understand why serious students of scripture cannot see that this is speaking about the perfection when we are in the literal presence of Christ. Paul describes the purpose of gifts as illustrating growth and maturity. According to Ephesians 4:11-16, the gifts were to be used to bring the church from a state of infancy to adulthood. The word translated “mature” in that passage (Eph. 4:13) is the word translated “perfection” (teleion) in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In the Ephesians passage, maturity is defined as “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” This will not happen until Christ’s second coming.
Without the gifts, spiritual maturity cannot be reached. One needs only to look at the modern church to see this.
:rolleyes:
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#79
Oh, but then you see; those that don't adhere to the gifts would be lacking something.
They say they have the fulness of the gospel.
Let God be true and every man accounted a liar.
They say they speak for God-(thus truth).
We who know the gifts of the Spirit are still here as long as the Holy Spirit is here are liars to them.
Though the scripture says, "let God be true and everyman a liar".
So let me ask this question again.
Where does the Holy Writ say the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#80
Simple question.
Show through scripture, not through 'preordained' theology.
Show Me.