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Discovering yourself
One young pastor fell in love with another mans wife.
Over time he discovered his wife did not suit him, because when they met it seemed
the right thing to do, in his over the top christian community he belonged to.
Rather than walk through self discovery and how to love those around you, he had
a nervous breakdown, divorced his wife, went to live with this woman and claimed
his first marriage did not count because God clearly was not in it.
What an example to a whole church congregation about discovering who you are
and not being faithful to those around you.
I have always found it strange, to children people will be faithful, but to partners
to whom there has been free will and real involvement, treating them like rubbish
is perfectly ok. How does God deal with us when we get things wrong?
One young pastor fell in love with another mans wife.
Over time he discovered his wife did not suit him, because when they met it seemed
the right thing to do, in his over the top christian community he belonged to.
Rather than walk through self discovery and how to love those around you, he had
a nervous breakdown, divorced his wife, went to live with this woman and claimed
his first marriage did not count because God clearly was not in it.
What an example to a whole church congregation about discovering who you are
and not being faithful to those around you.
I have always found it strange, to children people will be faithful, but to partners
to whom there has been free will and real involvement, treating them like rubbish
is perfectly ok. How does God deal with us when we get things wrong?
A
Peter....God offers them grace and forgiveness.
People are no more loyal to children than they are to partners. Your statement conveys that you have been blessed to have never undergone or witness child abuse.
People are loyal to their ego/flesh until they are born again and learn to walk in the Holy Spirit.
People are no more loyal to children than they are to partners. Your statement conveys that you have been blessed to have never undergone or witness child abuse.
People are loyal to their ego/flesh until they are born again and learn to walk in the Holy Spirit.
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A
I am currently reading the book "Dancing standing still: Healing the World from a Place of Prayer" by Richard Roth
It had a lot of bits of wisdom.
I wish to share with those interested.
"Grace humiliated our attempts at private virtue."
"The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.".
" I am convinced that if our preaching does not effect in the listener some level of healing, then it's not even the Gospel. Healing is the simplest criterion of preaching the Word that I can imagine. The truth heals and expands you in its very hearing: "the truth will make you free" (John 8v32).It allows and presses you to reconfigure the world with plenty of room for gentleness and peace for yourself,and for those around you. The lived Gospel moves more by inherent attraction than direct promotion. "
It had a lot of bits of wisdom.
I wish to share with those interested.
"Grace humiliated our attempts at private virtue."
"The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.".
" I am convinced that if our preaching does not effect in the listener some level of healing, then it's not even the Gospel. Healing is the simplest criterion of preaching the Word that I can imagine. The truth heals and expands you in its very hearing: "the truth will make you free" (John 8v32).It allows and presses you to reconfigure the world with plenty of room for gentleness and peace for yourself,and for those around you. The lived Gospel moves more by inherent attraction than direct promotion. "
Forgiveness helps[ed] me. Realize people who are abusive are in bondage themselves and pray for God to deliver them.
In Rom 16:17 we are instructed to mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Gal 6:1 we are instructed if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
So, first thing is to speak to someone who is overtaken in a fault and help restore him/her.
If we are unable to help restore, avoid that person.
I also think if the person finally does come around we are to welcome him/her back into the fellowship. But I don't believe we are to subject ourselves to abuse if a person does not want to be restored.
In Rom 16:17 we are instructed to mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
In Gal 6:1 we are instructed if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
So, first thing is to speak to someone who is overtaken in a fault and help restore him/her.
If we are unable to help restore, avoid that person.
I also think if the person finally does come around we are to welcome him/her back into the fellowship. But I don't believe we are to subject ourselves to abuse if a person does not want to be restored.
Amen...there is a process and in following this process we set boundaries not only for us but for the church as well.
The type that doesn't exhibit any change in their bad behavior needs to be separated from the others as they do defile us in the sense that we too can become bitter and end up being like them in our own behavior.
1 Corinthians 15:33 (NASB) [SUP]33 [/SUP] Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB) [SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
The type that doesn't exhibit any change in their bad behavior needs to be separated from the others as they do defile us in the sense that we too can become bitter and end up being like them in our own behavior.
1 Corinthians 15:33 (NASB) [SUP]33 [/SUP] Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."
Hebrews 12:15 (NASB) [SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
A
More quotes:
"Jesus didn't project the problem on to any other group, race, or religion; he held it and suffered it and thus transformed it into medicine for the world."
"The significance of Jesus' wounded body is his deliberate and conscious holding of the pain of the world and refusing to send it elsewhere. The wounds were not necessary to convince God that we were loveable; the wounds are to convince us of the path and the price of transformation. They are what will happen to you if you face and hold sin in compassion instead of projecting it in hatred."
It talks about how scapegoating. Defined as "the process of both denying and projecting your fears and hates elsewhere"
"Jesus didn't project the problem on to any other group, race, or religion; he held it and suffered it and thus transformed it into medicine for the world."
"The significance of Jesus' wounded body is his deliberate and conscious holding of the pain of the world and refusing to send it elsewhere. The wounds were not necessary to convince God that we were loveable; the wounds are to convince us of the path and the price of transformation. They are what will happen to you if you face and hold sin in compassion instead of projecting it in hatred."
It talks about how scapegoating. Defined as "the process of both denying and projecting your fears and hates elsewhere"
A
I believe scapegoating happens a lot when people are unable to face their pain, anger or guilt.
The only way we can have effective change and healing in the lives of others is to show God's love by not lashing back when people inflict pain upon us. When we love others as much as Jesus loves us, willing to suffer and die for those who hate and strick us...willing to let go of pride and ego. To stand for love and prayerful forgiveness and acceptance.
The only way we can have effective change and healing in the lives of others is to show God's love by not lashing back when people inflict pain upon us. When we love others as much as Jesus loves us, willing to suffer and die for those who hate and strick us...willing to let go of pride and ego. To stand for love and prayerful forgiveness and acceptance.
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A
It doesn't matter the denomination...wolves will sneak in and fleece God's sheep (taking people's money and time for his own gain or sense of power) and beat the kids (make them dependent on him and never help the have a good prayer life, study habits of reading the Bible for themselves and an actual healthy relationship with the TRUE God just a fake image the wolf makes up to gain control). Unless mature Christians recognize and stop what is happening to people in the name of God, when they are really minions of Satan.
True discipleship and maturity in Christ is needed. Prayer and excerising spirtual gifts such as discernment and healing are required.
True discipleship and maturity in Christ is needed. Prayer and excerising spirtual gifts such as discernment and healing are required.
Hi Ariel,
I hear and understand what you're saying. And agree.
But what I'm also seeing is that we as believers abuse one another. We beat people up with our words. All one has to do is look around in here and you see it happening. I've also been guilty when someone's attacked me, I want to attack back.
Some here take a moral high ground and judge others. Claiming to know the truth, they call names or put others down and it can come from both sides that are arguing.
I really think we each need to begin to check out ourselves, our motives. I love a good discussion. I learn that way. I'm sure others do too. It it can be a discussion where two sides disagree. That's cool!
What is not cool is when we begin to attack each other........ I've seen character assassination, calling others names, telling them they're decaying in their old religion, they're not saved, they're a wolf, a tare or whatever. We are abusing our own in this very thread that's suppose to be about how we can help to heal. Let's not just blame a wolf or a tare. Maybe there are some here..........the sheep biting at the other sheep. And let's not assume they're a wolf or a tare. Let's go look in The mirror, let it reflect our heart and see if we might be part of the problem.
If someone believes in the essentials, they are our brother or sister in Christ.
Our Lord said to allow the tares to grow with the weeds, not to pull them up ..... he'll do it in That Day. They'll be bundled up and thrown into the fire. It's not our job to go weeding through the wheat field.
Even a tare needs the Lord. The gospel spoken could uproot a tare and then the seed sown within would become planted as wheat rather than a weed.
If we see a wolf we are to cast them out from among us. Paul named names. So this is one of those times a moderator will need to step in and determine if someone is actually preaching another gospel and boot them out.
And then we have church discipline for when we begin to sin against one another. But I don't see that as much of an option here except to put certain ones on the avoid status.
We can't really operate in the same way as the local congregation would. But if we were all in a local congregation what would happen or maybe I it would be better to say, should happen?
1 Corinthians 5 God says:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
This type of church discipline was for the same purpose and is probably a part of the process of turning someone over to satan. We see a couple of examples of this happening in the scriptures.
We as a body of believers would do this, not only for the protection of others, but also out of love for the individual in hopes that they'll repent. It's a loving and kind act if the heart is one of restoration.
The Lord said that the ones He loves He chastises.
Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
So when we speak here let's be salty. Lets speak with grace on our lips. Let's love and care about the other person we're speaking to. If we think they're twisting scripture, show them how, in love. If they don't receive it, walk away from the conversation, but pray for them.
If we had the care and concern for the other, this would be a whole lot better place to enter into. And that should be they way we conduct ourselves. Let's grow up instead of being so carnal, as babes in Christ.
We all have been abused by brother/sisters in the Lord. Maybe the abusers were also abused and are doing what was done to them without even realizing it. They need help to come out of it.
Maybe someone is in a church where they teach things that aren't correct doctrine. And maybe later in life as they're learning and growing in God, and they'll change their views and begin lining them up more with what scripture teaches as God continues to transform their minds, their hearts and their lives.
I can say that's what happened to me. But you know, I see God's hand in it all the way.
I'm not going to blame others for my own sin. And I'm not going to blame others for leading me in the wrong direction. In many ways I'm grateful for the experience. I might be able to help someone else out or at least be a sounding board for them as they try to deal with their hurts and frustrations.
Some things I'm so ashamed of that I got involved in. I'm still embarrassed at myself for falling for some of the things I did.
But here's a question to consider. Should I be beat up during that time by the tongues of others if I'm involved in them right now? No! If someone sees me in error, they should pray for me, they should come talk to me in love and show me how I'm misunderstanding the scriptures or how I'm sinning and in need of repentance.
If someone sees me proud or arrogant, judgmental or self righteous, phariseeic or immoral, a liar or greedy or whatever, they need to come along side of me to show me my sin that I might repent of it.
If I don't hear the correction, that person who spoke with me needs to come and speak with me and bring along another believer or two with them. If I still don't hear it and go my own way, it's time to kick me out of fellowship that I might come to repentance.
So why beat these people up giving them a tongue-lashing. They're learning and growing like we all are. We're to see ourselves as servants of God to do His will. Is that what we're doing here?
Is it God's will that we beat each other up? Are we pleasing Him when we do? We need to help one another because at some point, we all have probably been abused in some way by the church, whether it was a pastor, deacon, elder or one of the sheep.
Let's just speak the truth of scripture without going on the attack mode if someone doesn't agree with us.
And I know it's difficult to turn the other cheek, just to have it slapped just as hard as the first blow was. But that's what we're called to do.
Let's learn to be more Christlike and humble ourselves before Almighty God. He's watching, seeing and hearing all that we do and say. Do we have any shame at all for some of the things we've said? It's time to repent, forgive and love one another.
The world will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another. Those who may be searching and aren't believers, will they see the love we have while reading through some of these threads?
And while we at walking in love, we need to humble ourselves and ask the other to forgive our caustic words - they can do more damage than a knife wound or a gun shot.
So healing from abuse begins with us. Are we the abuser?
I hear and understand what you're saying. And agree.
But what I'm also seeing is that we as believers abuse one another. We beat people up with our words. All one has to do is look around in here and you see it happening. I've also been guilty when someone's attacked me, I want to attack back.
Some here take a moral high ground and judge others. Claiming to know the truth, they call names or put others down and it can come from both sides that are arguing.
I really think we each need to begin to check out ourselves, our motives. I love a good discussion. I learn that way. I'm sure others do too. It it can be a discussion where two sides disagree. That's cool!
What is not cool is when we begin to attack each other........ I've seen character assassination, calling others names, telling them they're decaying in their old religion, they're not saved, they're a wolf, a tare or whatever. We are abusing our own in this very thread that's suppose to be about how we can help to heal. Let's not just blame a wolf or a tare. Maybe there are some here..........the sheep biting at the other sheep. And let's not assume they're a wolf or a tare. Let's go look in The mirror, let it reflect our heart and see if we might be part of the problem.
If someone believes in the essentials, they are our brother or sister in Christ.
Our Lord said to allow the tares to grow with the weeds, not to pull them up ..... he'll do it in That Day. They'll be bundled up and thrown into the fire. It's not our job to go weeding through the wheat field.
Even a tare needs the Lord. The gospel spoken could uproot a tare and then the seed sown within would become planted as wheat rather than a weed.
If we see a wolf we are to cast them out from among us. Paul named names. So this is one of those times a moderator will need to step in and determine if someone is actually preaching another gospel and boot them out.
And then we have church discipline for when we begin to sin against one another. But I don't see that as much of an option here except to put certain ones on the avoid status.
We can't really operate in the same way as the local congregation would. But if we were all in a local congregation what would happen or maybe I it would be better to say, should happen?
1 Corinthians 5 God says:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
This type of church discipline was for the same purpose and is probably a part of the process of turning someone over to satan. We see a couple of examples of this happening in the scriptures.
We as a body of believers would do this, not only for the protection of others, but also out of love for the individual in hopes that they'll repent. It's a loving and kind act if the heart is one of restoration.
The Lord said that the ones He loves He chastises.
Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
So when we speak here let's be salty. Lets speak with grace on our lips. Let's love and care about the other person we're speaking to. If we think they're twisting scripture, show them how, in love. If they don't receive it, walk away from the conversation, but pray for them.
If we had the care and concern for the other, this would be a whole lot better place to enter into.
And that should be they way we conduct ourselves. Let's grow up instead of being so carnal, as babes in Christ.We all have been abused by brother/sisters in the Lord. Maybe the abusers were also abused and are doing what was done to them without even realizing it. They need help to come out of it.
Maybe someone is in a church where they teach things that aren't correct doctrine. And maybe later in life as they're learning and growing in God, and they'll change their views and begin lining them up more with what scripture teaches as God continues to transform their minds, their hearts and their lives.
I can say that's what happened to me. But you know, I see God's hand in it all the way.
I'm not going to blame others for my own sin. And I'm not going to blame others for leading me in the wrong direction. In many ways I'm grateful for the experience. I might be able to help someone else out or at least be a sounding board for them as they try to deal with their hurts and frustrations.
Some things I'm so ashamed of that I got involved in. I'm still embarrassed at myself for falling for some of the things I did.
But here's a question to consider. Should I be beat up during that time by the tongues of others if I'm involved in them right now? No! If someone sees me in error, they should pray for me, they should come talk to me in love and show me how I'm misunderstanding the scriptures or how I'm sinning and in need of repentance.
If someone sees me proud or arrogant, judgmental or self righteous, phariseeic or immoral, a liar or greedy or whatever, they need to come along side of me to show me my sin that I might repent of it.
If I don't hear the correction, that person who spoke with me needs to come and speak with me and bring along another believer or two with them. If I still don't hear it and go my own way, it's time to kick me out of fellowship that I might come to repentance.
So why beat these people up giving them a tongue-lashing. They're learning and growing like we all are. We're to see ourselves as servants of God to do His will. Is that what we're doing here?
Is it God's will that we beat each other up? Are we pleasing Him when we do? We need to help one another because at some point, we all have probably been abused in some way by the church, whether it was a pastor, deacon, elder or one of the sheep.
Let's just speak the truth of scripture without going on the attack mode if someone doesn't agree with us.
And I know it's difficult to turn the other cheek, just to have it slapped just as hard as the first blow was. But that's what we're called to do.
Let's learn to be more Christlike and humble ourselves before Almighty God. He's watching, seeing and hearing all that we do and say. Do we have any shame at all for some of the things we've said? It's time to repent, forgive and love one another.
The world will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another. Those who may be searching and aren't believers, will they see the love we have while reading through some of these threads?
And while we at walking in love, we need to humble ourselves and ask the other to forgive our caustic words - they can do more damage than a knife wound or a gun shot.
So healing from abuse begins with us. Are we the abuser?
A
The cycle of abuse needs to be broken.
Jesus showed us how on the cross.
He tells us to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to pray and not curse our enemies.
Yet it is so hard to remember in the midst of being attacked.
Which is why it's good to have brothers and sisters who love us, who can remind and correct us.
We don't need to worry so much what some one stumbling upon this website or forum might think. We need more to focus on: what does God think?
Are we acting in a manner that glorifies Him?
Is our wisdom from above and filled with truth, peace and gentleness or is it bitter and contentious?
Do we speak to Honor God, or to Honor ourselves?
Do we listen?
Do we pray?
Jesus showed us how on the cross.
He tells us to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to pray and not curse our enemies.
Yet it is so hard to remember in the midst of being attacked.
Which is why it's good to have brothers and sisters who love us, who can remind and correct us.
We don't need to worry so much what some one stumbling upon this website or forum might think. We need more to focus on: what does God think?
Are we acting in a manner that glorifies Him?
Is our wisdom from above and filled with truth, peace and gentleness or is it bitter and contentious?
Do we speak to Honor God, or to Honor ourselves?
Do we listen?
Do we pray?
Abuse seems to start with pain, and then finding pain relief can happen by causing
pain in others.
Jesus called us to accept the pain and forgive, and be healed.
But it takes real spiritual growth and opening up to let the Holy Spirit minister to our
hearts. If we can share without expectation of being hurt, and when we are we can
absorb it move on, we have learnt the way of the Spirit.
I used to think turning the other cheek was fine but you can be assertive and declare
it hurt, and why. I now think this is wrong, because it is defending oneself, and that
is the problem. We have no defence, because we do not need defending, we have Christ.
This is what makes it so radical, and also so heavenly.
pain in others.
Jesus called us to accept the pain and forgive, and be healed.
But it takes real spiritual growth and opening up to let the Holy Spirit minister to our
hearts. If we can share without expectation of being hurt, and when we are we can
absorb it move on, we have learnt the way of the Spirit.
I used to think turning the other cheek was fine but you can be assertive and declare
it hurt, and why. I now think this is wrong, because it is defending oneself, and that
is the problem. We have no defence, because we do not need defending, we have Christ.
This is what makes it so radical, and also so heavenly.
Hi Peter,
I love what you said.
But I don't think we have to have real spiritual growth to obey God's word to love and forgive. I actually remember doing better in some things when I was first born-again.
The freshness of God's love being poured into my heart and the feeling of freedom of all my past sin - beginning all over again with a fresh, clean slate, the Holy Spirit coming to live inside me.........I was so on fire for God. All I could do was love and forgive others in my youth.
I think it's while we take this new journey and the way becomes difficult, or when someone hurts us along the way and we don't forgive, bitterness can creep in and that bitterness in our hearts can end up defiling. The challenge becomes more difficult to show that love for some. Let's rise to the challenge!
I think it can be when we begin to hang onto things and don't bring them to God in prayer thinking we can handle it on our own. I know I'm guilty of that. I'm thinking, I can handle it God. I'll let you know when I can't kind of thing.
And yeah, it can happen when we're young in the Lord too. I'm just saying that sometimes it's the youngsters in the Lord that are doing better than the old timers.
It's the maturing in Christ and not staying babes and sometimes the babes are the ones that act more mature while the old timers are sucking their thumb, desiring their milk so to speak.
Our words and actions speak volumes of where we're at spiritually speaking. So we need to pour in the Balm of Gilead to help heal the wounds and the hurt.
As we see Jesus going out and healing those who needed healing, let's do the same in the spiritual sense, let's go about healing the wounds caused by others by really caring about other people, by listening......really listening.
And yeah, there are times we have to speak some hard words of correction, but they still need to be words of love and caring. That's not what we're doing here when we try to bring correction to someone. Calling names, belittling, harshly judging, etc isn't speaking words of correction. It's speaking out of the flesh.
But if we're not healed, it's unlikely we can help someone else because maybe we're not even realizing we're bleeding all over the place and in our own pain we lash out at others. Lots of reasons why, so many of them. There's a lot of broken people that need the Love of God that heals.
It doesn't take a mature person to love it just takes a new heart, a spirit life, the power of God from within, which we all have. God's spirit is not even a thought away, He's right there. Let's allow Him to do His work in us so we can share Him with others.
Yeah, I've heard the term, The Upsidedown Kingdom, because all of God's ways are foreign to the world and its ways.
So let's be radical and live out the upside-down kingdom here on earth that we find in our precious Savior's word. And let's return to our first love.
For any that I've been harsh with, I apologize and ask for forgiveness. I want the Savior's love to pour forth from my heart and not my own thoughts or feelings, anger or harsh judgments. And I'm not just saying that.......I really do mean it.
