Stop beating the kids! Spiritual abuse of Christians

[blue_ladybug]

Peter, the church(es) have been in trouble for many, many MANY decades now, if not even millenia. That's likely to NEVER change. Yes, some come here to grow in their faith or to know God better, BUT TOO MANY are here simply for the sake of arguing, debating, and proving their points countless times over. It is THOSE people who are the problem here. THEY make this forum a horrid place to venture into. Ironically, THEY are ALSO the ones who beach because this forum is so filled with hate and evil that THEY have generated.

 

[PeterJens]

With the heart you seem to have, this is likely one of the truest statements you will ever make.

Willie - I listen to Wimber, TBN, many preachers, and how is my heart touched? Not at all.
Why because the fundamentals are missing. It is just status, claiming, asserting, doing.

There is no hunger for spiritual maturity, closeness to God, seeking His face, tears, interceeding,
brokeness, asking for forgiveness, repentance, confession of lack dedication, the right attitudes,
broken relationships, lying, cheating stealing, adultery, looking at porn, greed, envy, covetousness.

These are all there and this is where the true problems lie, yet you talk as if this junk has meaning.
God help you and all who follow you, because this is not Gods heart or way. Without a purified Holy
people there is no witness or basis of claim Jesus means anything, because all you create is hungry
failed people, no better than they were before, not even with a better life. It would be better if these
people just went and did something else than pollute the testimony of Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

That's likely to NEVER change.

Sister. Let us pray that God opens our eyes with His wisdom, so we can see
the greatest move of God that has ever been to His glory.

He is the creator, and we can aspire to walk in His ways. Look to Him and not
to man or to those who would decry His ways.

In my own life I am staggard at how far I have come and how much I have learnt
despite everything. He is God, and He know why He works this way and what His
times are. We are called just to go one step at a time, so I say, no matter who
the enemy are, Gods words and truth work to His purposes. Amen, Praise the Lord.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie - I listen to Wimber, TBN, many preachers, and how is my heart touched? Not at all.
Why because the fundamentals are missing. It is just status, claiming, asserting, doing.

There is no hunger for spiritual maturity, closeness to God, seeking His face, tears, interceeding,
brokeness, asking for forgiveness, repentance, confession of lack dedication, the right attitudes,
broken relationships, lying, cheating stealing, adultery, looking at porn, greed, envy, covetousness.

These are all there and this is where the true problems lie, yet you talk as if this junk has meaning.
God help you and all who follow you, because this is not Gods heart or way. Without a purified Holy
people there is no witness or basis of claim Jesus means anything, because all you create is hungry
failed people, no better than they were before, not even with a better life. It would be better if these
people just went and did something else than pollute the testimony of Christ.

You are online right now, so this should be able to be answered in just a few minutes if you really do listen to John. If not, it will take you hours to try and discover this before you can answer.

Where did John get his first Bible, who told him about it, and what did he think it was called. (This is in many of his tapes.)

It's 9:08 EST right now.

 

[PeterJens]

You are online right now, so this should be able to be answered in just a few minutes if you really do listen to John. If not, it will take you hours to try and discover this before you can answer.

Where did John get his first Bible, who told him about it, and what did he think it was called. (This is in many of his tapes.)

It's 9:08 EST right now.

Are you trying to sell me Wimber?
I am talking about spiritual emphasis. John is a nice guy.
I am sharing my experiences of the message, and that is the
point, the message. You are in denial the message is wrong.

 

[MadebyHim]

[h=3]Spiritually abusive ministries…[/h]

1. Have a distorted view of respect. They forget the simple adage that respect is earned, not granted. Abusive leaders demand respect without having earned it by good, honest living.
2. Demand allegiance as proof of the follower’s allegiance to Christ. It’s either his/her way or no way. And if a follower deviates, he is guilty of deviating from Jesus.
3. Use exclusive language. “We’re the only ministry really following Jesus.” “We have all the right theology.” Believe their way of doing things, thinking theologically, or handling ministry and church is the only correct way. Everyone else is wrong, misguided, or stupidly naive.
4. Create a culture of fear and shame. Often there is no grace for someone who fails to live up to the church’s or ministry’s expectation. And if someone steps outside of the often-unspoken rules, leaders shame them into compliance. Leaders can’t admit failure, but often search out failure in others and uses that knowledge to hold them in fear and captivity. They often quote scriptures about not touching God’s anointed, or bringing accusations against an elder. Yet they often confront sin in others, particularly ones who bring up legitimate biblical issues. Or they have their circle of influence take on this task, silencing critics.
5. Often have a charismatic leader at the helm who starts off well, but slips into arrogance, protectionism and pride. Where a leader might start off being personable and interested in others’ issues, he/she eventually withdraws to a small group of “yes people” and isolates from the needs of others. These ministries and churches harbor a cult of personality, meaning if the central figure of the ministry or church left, the entity would collapse, as it was entirely dependent on one person to hold the place together.
6. Cultivate a dependence on one leader or leaders for spiritual information. Personal discipleship isn’t encouraged. Often the Bible gets pushed away to the fringes unless the main leader is teaching it.
7. Demand blind servitude of their followers, but live prestigious, privileged lives. They live aloof from their followers and justify their material extravagance as God’s favor and approval on their ministry. Unlike Jesus’ instructions to take the last seat, they often take the first seat at events and court others to grant them privileges. They typically chase after wealth–at any cost, and often at the expense of the very people they shepherd.
8. Buffer him/herself from criticism by placing people around themselves whose only allegiance is to the leader. These leaders and churches view those who bring up legitimate issues as enemies. Those who were once friends/allies swiftly become enemies once a concern is raised. Sometimes these folks are banished, told to be silent, or shamed into submission.
9. Hold to outward performance but rejects authentic spirituality. Places burdens on followers to act a certain way, dress an acceptable way, and have an acceptable lifestyle, but they often demonstrate licentiousness, greed, and uncontrolled addictions behind closed doors.
10. Use exclusivity for allegiance. Followers close to the leader or leaders feel like lucky insiders. Everyone else is on the outside, though they often long to be in that inner circle. If someone on the inner circle speaks up about abuses, lapses in character, illegal acts, or strong-arming, that insider immediately moves to an outsider. Fear of losing their special status often impedes insiders from speaking up.

 

[PeterJens]

Ethics - If John Wimber discovered healing and founded Vineyard that is the
way the whole people of God should go, because healing is it.

Correct me if I am wrong, sin and getting our spiritual walk wrong is not why
we lack blessing and power at a church level, we should all be vineyard fellowships.

Do not buy it. And the real evil is religious legalism. Insane. Especially in a world
of secular atheism which is gaining ground. The evil is evil behaviour and rebellion
against God and love.

 

[Willie-T]

Are you trying to sell me Wimber?
I am talking about spiritual emphasis. John is a nice guy.
I am sharing my experiences of the message, and that is the
point, the message. You are in denial the message is wrong.

I'm telling you to stop lying to me.

You don't have to try to claim you listen to John Wimber when your own words prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you have probably never even listened to more than maybe ten minutes of his teaching.

No problem with that. But don't sit there lying through your teeth about it.

 

[blue_ladybug]

How are you sharing your experiences with Wimber and all the others you listen to? You've already admitted that they "don't touch my heart". Those are your verbatim words. So isn't it rather foolish to listen to people who's message doesn't touch your heart in any way? And yet you say Willie is in denial? Really?

Are you trying to sell me Wimber?
I am talking about spiritual emphasis. John is a nice guy.
I am sharing my experiences of the message, and that is the
point, the message. You are in denial the message is wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm telling you to stop lying to me.

You don't have to try to claim you listen to John Wimber when your own words prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you have probably never even listened to more than maybe ten minutes of his teaching.

No problem with that. But don't sit there lying through your teeth about it.

I think you miss-understand what truth is. I listened to wimber. I hear his approach and teaching.
I do not agree with it. How is this lying? And the point I am making is the approaches that pushes
miracles as everything, again I do not go with. But I am lying saying this. You want me really to
be something you can dislike. I wish I could like what you like. You yourself have wondered at
practicing tongues to get the gift of tongues. I am confused at your own internal criticisms of your
own fellowship. This does not help your case and strengthens my point, you have no answer.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm telling you to stop lying to me.

You don't have to try to claim you listen to John Wimber when your own words prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you have probably never even listened to more than maybe ten minutes of his teaching.

No problem with that. But don't sit there lying through your teeth about it.

Unfortunately this is the type of behavior that stops our ability to discuss what is really being said in any honest respectful way amongst us. How can we discuss what is being said if we mis-represent what is really being said? How can we discuss anything if we don't have a clue what is actually being said?

We can all learn from one another and the answer is not to attack the person that is teaching something. The answer is to take what is true out of the teaching and then we can build on that and then we could walk in a fuller way in that truth.

But to mis-represent what is being said in the first place is not creating an environment where true respectful discussion can occur. It is being deceitful and from my experience on here - discussions with this type of a mindset and interacting with them are fruitless and just evolves into strife and further division.

 

[PeterJens]

How are you sharing your experiences with Wimber and all the others you listen to? You've already admitted that they "don't touch my heart". Those are your verbatim words. So isn't it rather foolish to listen to people who's message doesn't touch your heart in any way? And yet you say Willie is in denial? Really?

I listen to them to find out why people follow this message, and whether there is something
I can relate to and understand. Only at the end can one say how you feel.

This is actually how you expand and change your understanding by listening to others.
It was the point Ariel was making. Listening matters, it is how we grow and understand.

 

[Stephen63]

Now, let's clear this thing up, shall we?

You got sources for that slander?

Bio

http://www.russtaff.com/bio/

 

[Willie-T]

I think you miss-understand what truth is. I listened to wimber. I hear his approach and teaching.
I do not agree with it. How is this lying? And the point I am making is the approaches that pushes
miracles as everything, again I do not go with. But I am lying saying this. You want me really to
be something you can dislike. I wish I could like what you like. You yourself have wondered at
practicing tongues to get the gift of tongues. I am confused at your own internal criticisms of your
own fellowship. This does not help your case and strengthens my point, you have no answer.

I speak in tongues. I have for more than 30 years. And it was at a "meeting" that I became disgusted with people trying to get us to shape our mouths just right, and utter sounds they gave us to mimic. I walked out on those idiots.

But it was within a half hour, sitting in my car, crying in frustration, that God suddenly gave me my first "Prayer Language." And He actually changed it completely about five or six years ago... as I was out walking my dog. (The same dog I prayed for about him having gone deaf... and his hearing was instantly restored. He heard fine for the remaining years of his life.)

But just because a half dozen people were confused about how to instruct in tongues, does that negate the fact that God had me praying to Him in tongues from that very night?

You seem to have had some very serious and rigid restrictions placed on your interaction with the one who created you, and that is sad. But I don't know what to say to you to get past the wall you keep around your heart.

 

[PeterJens]

Below are some Wimber comments - which I agree with

Obedience to the Lord is not only measured by how much we do for our Savior, but by how we obey Him when nobody is looking.

We need to learn how to keep people through love. Despite imperfections, sins, and irritating habits of other Christians, they belong to Jesus and they need our love as a healthy climate for growth.

I also visited several healing meetings... and became angry with what appeared to be the manipulation of people for the material gains of the faith healer... Dressing like sideshow barkers. Pushing people over and calling it the power of God. And money - they were always asking for more, leading people to believe that if they gave they would be healed...

TOP 25 QUOTES BY JOHN WIMBER | A-Z Quotes

Confusion is the tactic of those who wish to distract rather than face the truth.

My confusion would be summed up in Willie and his agression against simple biblical
principles which I would expect Wimber to agree with.

Wimber is linked to many in the experimental church, but somehow tried to keep
clean. The two defenders of the group Willie and Lauren are not passive people, lol.

 

[Willie-T]

At least I got you running to find some Wimber quotes to post. That's a start. LOL

And maybe you will even start listening to his tapes to find out about his first Bible.

 

[blue_ladybug]

C'mon Peter, you are (hopefully) more mature than to resort to this childish behavior. There's no reason to make fun of Willie or Lauren. What does it matter whether they're passive or not? Is that somehow a threat to you??

 

[PeterJens]

I speak in tongues. I have for more than 30 years. And it was at a "meeting" that I became disgusted with people trying to get us to shape our mouths just right, and utter sounds they gave us to mimic. I walked out on those idiots.

But it was within a half hour, sitting in my car, crying in frustration, that God suddenly gave me my first "Prayer Language." And He actually changed it completely about five or six years ago... as I was out walking my dog. (The same dog I prayed for about him having gone deaf... and his hearing was instantly restored. He heard fine for the remaining years of his life.)

But just because a half dozen people were confused about how to instruct in tongues, does that negate the fact that God had me praying to Him in tongues from that very night?

You seem to have had some very serious and rigid restrictions placed on your interaction with the one who created you, and that is sad. But I don't know what to say to you to get past the wall you keep around your heart.

Well amen to this spiritual dimension in your life.
So you had one tongue before and now you have a very different one.

So which was your true baptism in the Holy Spirit and which was your fake one?
Or have you always been walking with Christ, just a slight new revelation?

How can I be wrong calling people to purity and holiness, right living, repenting
of sin and walking with Christ?

And if I am not wrong, why are you opposing me and about what?
If I am speaking the words of God, from a loving open heart, how can it be frozen?

I think you have got something wrong somewhere along the line.
People only can preach purity from God, because nobody else would bother.

 

[Willie-T]

Well amen to this spiritual dimension in your life.
So you had one tongue before and now you have a very different one.

So which was your true baptism in the Holy Spirit and which was your fake one?
Or have you always been walking with Christ, just a slight new revelation?

How can I be wrong calling people to purity and holiness, right living, repenting
of sin and walking with Christ?

And if I am not wrong, why are you opposing me and about what?
If I am speaking the words of God, from a loving open heart, how can it be frozen?

I think you have got something wrong somewhere along the line.
People only can preach purity from God, because nobody else would bother.

I have to assume that since you don't seem to have matured past some basic, hard-line dogma you absorbed years ago, and that you refuse to believe God has more for each of us, you cannot recognize advancement in God and the widening horizons He wants all of us to experience in this life.

 

[PeterJens]

I have to assume that since you don't seem to have matured past some basic, hard-line dogma you absorbed years ago, and that you refuse to believe God has more for each of us, you cannot recognize advancement in God and the widening horizons He wants all of us to experience in this life.

Ok. In your mind repentance and sin are a done deal in the past and we
are striding onwards to the glories of the future with spiritual authority.

Odd thing is I do not see the pure, holy, mature Church striding anywhere.
I see a doctrinally compromised, hypocritical movement claiming something
which is not true, while not even managing to live the basics of the christian
life. And when the leaders fall into obvious sin and failure, they are forgiven
and given opportunities to return to this dream land.

So I see your world and the world God sees. They are very different places.