The 144,000 named in Revelation

[KJV1611]

I kind of agree with you, except that I believe it (the mount Sion, or the context of the passage under discussion) pertains to their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which is soon-to-commence, from this point in the chronology). And so is, in that sense, literal (a literal promise for literal thing, place, and time).


[and since I believe "the 24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body," I don't say that it is that, exactly ]

Not to argue with you because I respect your position but to get the timing of that event look at when the children of Israel were able to sing a “new song”. It was at the first coming of Christ IMHO.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not to argue with you because I respect your position but to get the timing of that event look at when the children of Israel were able to sing a “new song”. It was at the first coming of Christ IMHO.

Not to worry, I'm enjoying the discussion (even when we find we disagree in parts).

I think it was someone like Gaebelein who points out the similarity (or the expression "A NEW SONG") in the 13 verses of Psalm 96, in order to gain some perspective on this passage.

Then another commentator (that I don't normally follow very closely at all), says this (which I do believe is worthy of consideration, in this particular matter):

[quoting]

"(1) A new song.—See Note, Psalm 33:3. It appears to have been a kind of national and religious “lyric cry” after the Restoration. (Comp. Isaiah 42:10.)"

--Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers [Rev 14]

 

[dcontroversal]

How can that be when they are shown praising God, and standing before the throne of God (Q)

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders... (Rev 14:3)

We know that the four beasts, or living creatures, or cherubim, surround the throne of God in Heaven, and the 24 elders are also before the throne of God. Since all of that is in Heaven (the third heaven) it would be totally incorrect and misleading to claim that the 144,000 were or are on earth.

Exactly....ALL 4 locations identified with the 144,000 are found in heaven....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: sorry, that last line should have said, "--Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers [Psalm 96] (not from his commentary on Rev14)

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dcon, what do you say regarding the point I made about Revelation 12:1 "...IN HEAVEN, a woman" but the woman is later shown to be on the earth?

 

[dcontroversal]

What I was saying is that the "they" (in verse 3, i.e. "the voice" [2x] in verse 2 and 3a) is DISTINCT FROM the "144,000" in the following verse/section.

NAH.....the whole context is about the 144,000 found in Revelation 14......

 

[dcontroversal]

I kind of agree with you, except that I believe it (the mount Sion, or the context of the passage under discussion) pertains to their promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which is soon-to-commence, from this point in the chronology). And so is, in that sense, literal (a literal promise for literal thing, place, and time).


[and since I believe "the 24 elders" represent "the Church which is His body," I don't say that it is that, exactly ]

Mount ZION before the FATHER is clear....<----Our Father which ART IN HEAVEN

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

NAH.....the whole context is about the 144,000 found in Revelation 14......

Sure, but the scene also shows "the 4 living creatures" and "the [24] elders;" and then the "A VOICE OUT FROM HEAVEN" [John isn't up there now], as the voice of MANY WATERS... and they [all those mentioned THUS FAR in the phrases "the voice of"] sung as it were a new song before the throne" (none of which are the same people as the "144,000 [a singular nation]," as I am reading it; the 144,000 though [being distinct from the others] are indeed the only ones on the earth who can "LEARN" that song).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Do we go to heaven when we boldly come before the throne of grace?

No, other than in spirit. However, the scenario in Revelation 14 does not leave any doubt as to where the 144,000 praise God. The mention of the cherubim and the elders makes that perfectly clear.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And I'm saying that the text does not say "THEY-THE-144,000" are singing around the throne

Please note carefully from this verse that the ones singing around the throne are indeed the 144,000:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

*That song* which is sung by the 144,000 is also *a new song BEFORE THE THRONE*. That makes it crystal clear as to (1) who is before the throne and (2) who is singing that unique new song which *no man could learn* other than these 144,000.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please note carefully from this verse that the ones singing around the throne are indeed the 144,000:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

*That song* which is sung by the 144,000 is also *a new song BEFORE THE THRONE*. That makes it crystal clear as to (1) who is before the throne and (2) who is singing that unique new song which *no man could learn* other than these 144,000.

You don't have to agree with me, but I'm pointing out that "THEY" points back to the [already-mentioned] "A VOICE OUT FROM HEAVEN, as the voice of MANY WATERS" that John "heard" when he's [now] standing on the earth and beholding the "a Lamb standing" in a different place than He was back in Revelation 5 (which was in Heaven, back in chpt 5), and now (in this setting) "accompanying [G3326 - meta] Him" was the 144,000. [this Grk word distinct, by the way, from the "G4862 - syn - "with," denoting "union" and/or "identification" with, used of US/"the Church which is His body"--not especially pertinent to the point of this convo/post]

You are wanting to read what happens involving the 144,000, here, BACK INTO the "a voice out from heaven" (who "are singing") and identifying the two as being "ONE and the SAME ENTITY". I'm saying that the text itself DOES NOT STATE that "the 144,000 are around the throne singing"... it says that they are the only ones who "could learn that song" (a completely distinct thing). I believe that to suggest that they [the 144,000] "are around the throne singing" is to READ INTO what the text actually states. [v.3a "they" are not the v.3b "144,000" who "LEARN that song" (no one else "could learn that song" but the 144,000)]


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It'd be kinda like my saying, "dcon, KJV1611, and TDW 'are singing' a trio in church this Sunday [today]; no one 'can learn that song' but Nehemiah6"

 

[KJV1611]

No, other than in spirit. However, the scenario in Revelation 14 does not leave any doubt as to where the 144,000 praise God. The mention of the cherubim and the elders makes that perfectly clear.

Rev 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The 144000 are standing on mount Sion, are you saying mount Sion is in heaven?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Compare the phrasing in Revelation 11:12 (involving the 2 Witnesses standing on the earth [after being resurrected]),
"And they heard a great voice out of [ek] heaven, saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them."

The voice was in heaven (coming "out from [ek]" heaven), but they were on the earth when the voice said this to them.

This is why I say that John's perspective (at that point) was him being on the earth (at the v.1 setting), and the voice he heard was "out from heaven".

Rev 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The 144000 are standing on mount Sion, are you saying mount Sion is in heaven?

In Deuteronomy 4:45-49 [its other "mention"], it's on the earth.


….and recall that the "Lamb" word in Rev is different to that of the "Lamb" word in John 1.

 

[pottersclay]

I believe that this is a dead end . To much of a stretch. I give d credit in his study of the word but I find no credit to it's conclusion.

I'm out.

 

[dcontroversal]

Rev 14:1 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The 144000 are standing on mount Sion, are you saying mount Sion is in heaven?

Sure......Where are the 24 elders, 4 beasts and HEAVENLY FATHER......we often ignore, reject or just flat forget that what is here is a mirror image of what IS IN HEAVEN......

Can you follow the Lamb where ever he does if you are not physically where he is?
Can you sing before the throne, 4 beasts and elders if you are not where they are at?

The Father is in HEAVEN....not on some mound of dirt.........just saying.......

 

[Noose]

Herod killed the boys decades before John wrote the prophesy contained in Revelation. What's the point of John being exiled to Patmos to write something that had happened decades before and even try to twist it so that the meaning is hidden?

 

[KJV1611]

Sure......Where are the 24 elders, 4 beasts and HEAVENLY FATHER......we often ignore, reject or just flat forget that what is here is a mirror image of what IS IN HEAVEN......

Can you follow the Lamb where ever he does if you are not physically where he is?
Can you sing before the throne, 4 beasts and elders if you are not where they are at?

The Father is in HEAVEN....not on some mound of dirt.........just saying.......

I see your point but Revelation is so full of symbolic language that I can’t say one way or another. In my opinion there’s not enough info in that passage to know with certainly.

 

[KJV1611]

Herod killed the boys decades before John wrote the prophesy contained in Revelation. What's the point of John being exiled to Patmos to write something that had happened decades before and even try to twist it so that the meaning is hidden?

But John was in the spirit on the Lords day and writing from that point of view.

 

[Noose]

But John was in the spirit on the Lords day and writing from that point of view.

And what's the point?
People knew why the Romans killed the children/ It had already happened and even forgotten by the time John wrote Revelation- if John was to write it all over again, it would be as history not prophesy and it can not be called a 'Revelation'.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I agree with that last line.

Revelation 1:1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3 for example] things which must come to pass [comp 4:1 (the FUTURE things of this Book)] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (not things taking place over the course of the past 2000 years; and compare this "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" phrase with where it is elsewhere used: Lk18:8 and context [incl'g chpt 17] and Rom16:20 [this context speaking to "the Church which is His body" which is also told in 1Cor6:3[14] that "we shall judge angels"])

 

[KJV1611]

And what's the point?
People knew why the Romans killed the children/ It had already happened and even forgotten by the time John wrote Revelation- if John was to write it all over again, it would be as history not prophesy and it can not be called a 'Revelation'.

I’m just saying the time John wrote it doesn’t matter because he was seeing things on the Lords day.

The book of Revelation isn’t new prophecy it’s revealing something that was hidden.