The BAC must endure in the faith to the end of life to be saved

[dcontroversal]

I would also like to add a few things as most forget the following......

1. A saved, born again child of God can backslide to the point that they have forgotten that they have been purged
2. God said by PAUL that in A HOUSE are many vessels...SOME of HONOR and some NOT SO HONORABLE
3. Paul said clearly that the things he said he was going to do he did not do and the things he said he was not going to do he did
4. Jesus said the Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is week
5. Some of the greatest men of faith had horrific sins, yet were still forgiven and saved
6. The spirit and the flesh constantly war one against the other for control of a believer
7. IT IS THE SPIRIT that is BORN of GOD which does NOT SIN and that is eternally sealed and secure in Christ
8 THE BODY IS DEAD because of SIN

And the biggie...my salvation, justification and sanctification is based upon...
1. THE PERFECT faith OF JESUS and HIS completed WORK on my behalf!

 

[AtonedFor]

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Romans 5:1

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10

"9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:9-10

John is clear that when we are born of God (Not of our own works) that we do obey the commands of God. But the obedience is because God's seed, or the Holy Spirit is within us. He leads and guides us, AFTER we are saved.

As for those that appear to backslide, I think John has it right. They never were saved in the first place.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.[d]21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth.22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life." 1 John 2:19-25

BAC = Born-Again Christian

Thou was justified by faith when thou first believed ...
but your faith must continue in order to keep your justification and your righteousness!
(new thread coming up tomorrow proving this)

Yes, this initial faith and salvation of yours (above) was not because of any works of yours!

Your 1 John 3 passage indicates that our churches today are comprised of maybe 10% BACs.
Because only about that many are practicing righteousness!

Your 1 John 2 passage speaks of 1 experience, which you just cannot make a doctrine out of.

 

[SeaBass]

I have not seen so much self righteousness in all my life.

Oh Wait, Yes I have, they were called pharisees.

When are you both going to realize the law condemns you, and the only way to be saved from the law is the price of redemption, which is the blood of Christ.

Many people have come to church, Heard the word of faith. Tried to live that word of faith, and fallen away from that word of faith, because the faith they learned was in word only, and not in reality (they never trusted God to begin with)

it is no wonder paul and James both had to warn us about making sure the word we so claimed to have faith in is real. and not dead.

of course, those of us who already have true faith would not have to worry about such things, We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. and it is based on this FACT we CONTINUE TO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is those who do not KNOW they have eternal life. who waver in faith, Who turn to legalism, so they feel better about themselves. and eventualy risk falling away into a true legalistic works based gospel. or giving up alltogether, because they fail to understand grace, and realize how futile their attempt is to try to live up to Gods law. Who does not understand the true meaning of faith and grace.. and who spend their whole lives trying to make sure that they will make it to heaven, instead of trying to grow in faith and love of god. and sharing that love with others.

1 Jn 5:13 makes eternal life CONDITIONAL upon one having a present tense, continual belief.

Eternal security says salvation is UNconditional meaning one could quit believing and still be saved anyway.

 

[Jason0047]

One of the most difficult verses is 1 Corinthians 9:27. Was Paul saying he was going to be a castaway? Well, we have to ask the question: Was Paul talking as a present tense reality for himself or was Paul talking the past tense who had already faced such a challenge in the past so as to pass that lesson on to others? For Paul can appear to be saying here that if does not keep his body under subjection (i.e. not to sin habitually), then preaching the gospel would just make him a castaway or nothing. In 1 Corinthians 10 we learn about the Israelites who fell in the wilderness. They were trying to drink the cup of the Lord's and the cup of devils. Somebody who truly wants to follow Jesus Christ and has dedicated their lives to Him will not stay down for the count. They will overcome with the Lord's help. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

In other words, what I am trying to say here is.....

Is it ultimately YOU who determines your standing with God, or is it the Lord Jesus Christ? Meaning, if God had no power to save you and or help you in your struggle with sin and all the battle rests on your shoulders alone than what true hope is there? Are we the Saviors or is Jesus Christ the Savior? Are we co-Saviors? Is not salvation not that of ourselves? Is not salvation of gift? For how are we saved at this second right now? By our works or by Jesus Christ?

 

[AtonedFor]

It is not you who keeps you in God or Christ.
The Scriptures say that God can keep us from stumbling (If that is our desire).
There is not going to be any tragedy of going to Hell against your free will choice or failing to miss out on Heaven if you truly want to be with Christ. Those who are not with Christ in Heaven are those who choose not to have a deep relationship with Jesus Christ. For folks who miss out on the Kingdom are those who have chosen to have a counterfeit faith (Where they do not really know Him) or they are those who only have spurious faith (with no real depth or root in Christ and His Word) that does not last.

It is you who must have the correct desire.
It is you who must utilize your free will correctly.
It is you who must choose to co-operate with God.
It is you who must choose to have an intimate relationship
with both Father God and Jesus.

You must choose to do these things because God did not created you to be a robot.

Now, dost thou agree with the thread title, or are you going to argue some more?

 

[AtonedFor]

...my salvation, justification and sanctification is based upon...
1. THE PERFECT faith OF JESUS and HIS completed WORK on my behalf!

Yes, it is based on that ... and that is the foundation!

But unfortunately, you have missed many dozens of NT verses,
which WARN that YOU must continue to co-operate with the Lord in several ways
... to finally be an overcomer and be welcomed into heaven.

Actually, the whole entire Bible teaches ...
man must co-operate with God's will to continue to be considered righteous in God's eyes!

I.E. salvation is a life-long co-operative effort between God and man.

 

[Jason0047]

It is you who must have the correct desire.
It is you who must utilize your free will correctly.
It is you who must choose to co-operate with God.
It is you who must choose to have an intimate relationship
with both Father God and Jesus.

You must choose to do these things because God did not created you to be a robot.

Now, dost thou agree with the thread title, or are you going to argue some more?

Look. While I am all for us having free will, and that we must ultimately choose God, I also do not think it is all us, either. For you have repeated the word "you" 4 times as if salvation is of yourself and it is not a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 says grace (salvation) is not that of ourselves. Read it again one more time. Then read Titus 3:5.

Jesus Christ draws ALL men unto himself; And the Scriptures say that God can keep you from stumbling. Nobody can come to Jesus without the Father drawing them; And we cannot even repent without God's approval. Meaning, God is aware of our future free will choices. Yes, God commands all men to repent, but the Lord knows not everyone is going to do so. He stands at the door of everyone's heart and knocks, but He knows simply that not all people are going to open that door. So repentance will not be granted to them. Jonah sure wanted to run away and do his own thing, but God had other plans. I used to be an atheist, but God had other plans for my life. So do not understimate the power of God, my friend. He is more powerful than you and or anyone one person and their line of thinking. So don't count God out in being the Savior.

 

[crossnote]

I have not seen so much self righteousness in all my life.

Oh Wait, Yes I have, they were called pharisees.

When are you both going to realize the law condemns you, and the only way to be saved from the law is the price of redemption, which is the blood of Christ.

Many people have come to church, Heard the word of faith. Tried to live that word of faith, and fallen away from that word of faith, because the faith they learned was in word only, and not in reality (they never trusted God to begin with)

it is no wonder paul and James both had to warn us about making sure the word we so claimed to have faith in is real. and not dead.

of course, those of us who already have true faith would not have to worry about such things, We KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. and it is based on this FACT we CONTINUE TO BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is those who do not KNOW they have eternal life. who waver in faith, Who turn to legalism, so they feel better about themselves. and eventualy risk falling away into a true legalistic works based gospel. or giving up alltogether, because they fail to understand grace, and realize how futile their attempt is to try to live up to Gods law. Who does not understand the true meaning of faith and grace.. and who spend their whole lives trying to make sure that they will make it to heaven, instead of trying to grow in faith and love of god. and sharing that love with others.

And I have never seen such endless stupidity from these lawaholics. But I'm on December lite til I get back into the swing of things.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, it is based on that ... and that is the foundation!

But unfortunately, you have missed many dozens of NT verses,
which WARN that YOU must continue to co-operate with the Lord in several ways
... to finally be an overcomer and be welcomed into heaven.

Actually, the whole entire Bible teaches ...
man must co-operate with God's will to continue to be considered righteous in God's eyes!

I.E. salvation is a life-long co-operative effort between God and man.

Well first of all.....I haven't missed anything.......Second.....it is my spirit that has been born of God, does not sin, is eternally sealed and preserved in Christ.......so.....you wrongfully assume that I believe that I can live anyway I want to live after I have been born again.......maybe ask me what I believe before you attribute something to me that is not attributable to me!

 

[Jason0047]

It is you who must have the correct desire.
It is you who must utilize your free will correctly.
It is you who must choose to co-operate with God.
It is you who must choose to have an intimate relationship
with both Father God and Jesus.

You must choose to do these things because God did not created you to be a robot.

Now, dost thou agree with the thread title, or are you going to argue some more?

In other words, my dear friend, you are make salvation into something like it is all your own effort or something. But...

Ezekiel 36:26-27 says God will give us a new spirit and place His Spirit within us so as to keep His Law. God's Word also says Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So... are you the author of your faith? Or is Jesus Christ the author of your faith? Are you the finisher of your faith? Or is Jesus the finisher of your faith? Who draws you to Him? Yourself? Or is it God? Who works within you to do His will? Is it yourself? Why do you think the Elders cast our crowns down before Jesus?

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, my dear friend, you are make salvation into something like it is all your own effort or something. But...

Ezekiel 36:26-27 says God will give us a new spirit and place His Spirit within us so as to keep His Law. God's Word also says Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So... are you the author of your faith? Or is Jesus Christ the author of your faith? Are you the finisher of your faith? Or is Jesus the finisher of your faith? Who draws you to Him? Yourself? Or is it God? Who works within you to do His will? Is it yourself? Why do you think the Elders cast our crowns down before Jesus?

Edit Correction:

Meant to say, "Elders cast their crowns down before Jesus." Not our crowns.

 

[AtonedFor]

In other words, my dear friend,
you are make salvation into something like it is all your own effort or something.

Here we go again folks with his inability to read and respond accurately.

My "co-operative" efforts gets translated into it's "all" my efforts.

Jason, enough is enough ... you post like the e_g ... untruthful postings!
Except while he lies, you are just careless (I hope).

Please do NOT expect any more replies from me.

 

[Jason0047]

Here we go again folks with his inability to read and respond accurately.

My "co-operative" efforts gets translated into it's "all" my efforts.

Jason, enough is enough ... you post like the e_g ... untruthful postings!
Except while he lies, you are just careless (I hope).

Please do NOT expect any more replies from me.

Am I your enemy because I tell you the truth? I am just rephrasing what you said about Pre-Trib Rapture believers.

 

[breno785au]

Well first of all.....I haven't missed anything.......Second.....it is my spirit that has been born of God, does not sin, is eternally sealed and preserved in Christ.......so.....you wrongfully assume that I believe that I can live anyway I want to live after I have been born again.......maybe ask me what I believe before you attribute something to me that is not attributable to me!

Finally! Someone who understands this! Praise God!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well first of all we need to do to settle this debate is to see if the title contradicts what our Lord Jesus said;

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[Jason0047]

Why did they endure? Was it because of themselves or God? Who is the Savior? You or God? Why did the Elders cast their crowns down before Jesus Christ?

 

[notuptome]

Well first of all we need to do to settle this debate is to see if the title contradicts what our Lord Jesus said;

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

This is prophecy spoken by Jesus to Israel. This is not understood to apply to the church but to Israel who is going to go through the tribulation.

It is error to apply this to Christians. Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us before the Father in heaven. When we sin Christ is our eternal advocate so that we are never under the condemnation of God.

As long as Christ endures the Christian will endure.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

Why did they endure? Was it because of themselves or God? Who is the Savior? You or God? Why did the Elders cast their crowns down before Jesus Christ?

They endured because out of love they obeyed the guidance of the Lord.
We work together, hand and hand, with the Lord our God for salvation. We are not puppets, and do not still have free will to chose. This and our Lord Jesus calls the Holy Spirit our helper, not controller. There will be some out their that will refuse the guidance and the power of the Holy Spirit, which is the unforgivable sin. It is only if your faith is rooted strongly in Christ, and you obey the guidance of the Holy Spirit and its working in you that you will endure.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is prophecy spoken by Jesus to Israel. This is not understood to apply to the church but to Israel who is going to go through the tribulation.

It is error to apply this to Christians. Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us before the Father in heaven. When we sin Christ is our eternal advocate so that we are never under the condemnation of God.

As long as Christ endures the Christian will endure.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wrong, for Matthew 10:22 is not directed at the tribulation period.
Matthew 10:22 was directed at His apostles/disciples when He sent them out to preach the good news to the rest of the Jews.
Plus once again you use the false teaching that this is only for them, and other parts are for us....
This is false teaching, and is not what Jesus said. Lord Jesus did not say anywhere that only part was for us to obey, He said we are to obey all that He taught/commanded.

Matthew 28:16-20

The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[notuptome]

Wrong, for Matthew 10:22 is not directed at the tribulation period.
Matthew 10:22 was directed at His apostles/disciples when He sent them out to preach the good news to the rest of the Jews.
Plus once again you use the false teaching that this is only for them, and other parts are for us....
This is false teaching, and is not what Jesus said. Lord Jesus did not say anywhere that only part was for us to obey, He said we are to obey all that He taught/commanded.

Matthew 28:16-20

The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

When did prophecy become a command?

Christ gave a command to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart.

You compound your error with an incorrect exegesis of Matthew 28. You want to make everyone obey yet you refuse to allow Christ to do what He came to do. Christ came not be ministered unto but to minister. No one can obey until they first allow Christ to serve them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger