The BASIC Difference between Arminians and Calvinists

[AndyMaleh]

I asked this question...
"
"There is no difference"..."Cover up differences"...
So which is it? "

First you said 'there is no difference', then you go on to mention 'cover-up differences'. So please explain the apparent contradiction.

They're unrelated, coming from two different sentences addressing different concerns. That's why I thought you were joking and conflating two unrelated things for amusement.

 

[crossnote]

Wow! I sense a lot of anger and disdain in this thread. It's like you hate Arminians and Calvinists (and Catholics too). Anger is a sin you know!?! It comes from Satan. Avoid it! They're all our brothers and sisters in Christ. Pray for them instead. Godspeed.

To whom are you addressing this to?

 

[crossnote]

Another one of the tensions that's present in the Bible, the need to submit vs freedom in Christ. Lordship salvation often breaks too strongly in favor of obedience and risks developing an orphan spirit, whereas a failure to recognize the need for submission is likely to produce unrepentant individuals from recognizing their true need for a Savior.

I agree with this part about L.S. and what is not stressed is the Father's discipline, taking His (bonafide) children to the woodshed (Heb 12:3-12) when they do act up. Disciplining His own is part of the process of being conformed to Christ's image.

 

[crossnote]

I will get the popcorn out, should be interesting soon

How's the popcorn? Have you had time to eat it?

 

[Mem]

Okay, so basically, one is negative one (-1) and the other is positive one (+1) and these two cancel each other to reach 0, the median position from which I'm most comfortable standing. God empowers (comes as Helper to) His elect in continuing to, preferably, yield (their hearts to His influence) tho not without prohibiting any given opportunity that any may choose to withstand it (ie, harden their hearts).

 

[AndyMaleh]

To whom are you addressing this to?

I don't answer questions with obvious answers.

You don't seem sincere in your questions.

I don't see any value in them.

Always ask yourself before asking a question if it pleases God to ask it. If it does not, then it comes from Satan and must be avoided. Satan is the father of lies. Do not listen to him. He is not to be trusted. He is to be ignored. He is not to be assigned importance. He is to be minimized to nothing. He is to be vanquished. He is to be skipped over as a bad example. He is to be kicked out of all our thoughts and feelings. He is to be disposed of. He is to be given no regard whatsoever.

 

[garee]

I think the difference is how we see faith (hear God) as a work. Seeing faith is a work of God. God working in us us to both will and empowers use to perform it ..

We have no power to offer towards him. (the froward generation no faith not little none ) That would be considered "dead faith" .The living faith we need to believe comes down .Not earthly inspired by the god of this world. But like all the doctrines of God they come down as rain like dew upon the leaves

Dead works dead faith. Faith cannot be divided from works it all one thing called a "work of faith" or "labor of Love". Love that he works in us.

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Lest any boast in false pride . I got myself saved .

 

[throughfaith]

I am not sure you (or some others) understand what Lordship Salvation is, and many Christians view it negatively. Here is the proper understanding from Got Questions. And it is biblical. Not just Calvinistic.

Question: "What is lordship salvation?"

Answer: The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience...

Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17;Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin...

Yes this is exactly what I mean . Of course this would be a softer way of putting it ( Got questions are calvinsts , 4 points , which is really no different to 5 points ) And its not just held by Calvinists of course . I believe the book of corinthians refutes Lordship salvation .

 

[throughfaith]

I am not sure you (or some others) understand what Lordship Salvation is, and many Christians view it negatively. Here is the proper understanding from Got Questions. And it is biblical. Not just Calvinistic.

Question: "What is lordship salvation?"

Answer: The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience...

Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17;Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin...

This would be the ' soft ' explanation. Its sounds righteous and pious . But here it is , its exactly what I'm saying. Everytime we look at our watches we are reminded of Lordship salvation . John Calivin thought wearing jewellery was sinful for a ' true believer ' ( an elect one ) so wearing Jewellery to church was banned . But of course as a work a round , folks would wear a watch and gradually watches became more and more fancy . Lordship salvation kills growth in the church .

 

[Nehemiah6]

Its sounds righteous and pious

Buddy, it is Gospel truth and Bible truth. Either believe it, or be deceived by some other Gospel.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe the book of corinthians refutes Lordship salvation .

No, that is totally incorrect. We could go into great detail to refute that idea.

Let's start here: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:2,3)

1. Did you notice that right out the the gate, the Lordship of Christ is brought to the forefront? It is significant to note that rarely does Paul call Jesus simply "Jesus". He generally says "Lord Jesus" or "Lord Jesus Christ". Jesus was "Jesus" in His humiliation and His humility. He is now "the Lord Jesus Christ" and when He descends to earth at His second coming He will be "King of kings and LORD of lords".

2. What is the spiritual significance of the fact that Jesus is now "the LORD Jesus Christ"?

a. It confirms that He is God, since none other than God may be called "LORD".

b. It establishes the fact that Christ destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan on the cross, therefor He rose again as a Victor in His resurrection. When He cried "It is finished" that was a cry of victory, and when He "preached to the spirits in prison" in Hades, He proclaimed His victory to all (saints, sinners, and evil angels).

c. It is because Christ rose from the dead on the third day as He promised, God the Father has given Him all authority and power both in Heaven and on earth.

d. This means that God has given Christ TOTAL AUTHORITY over every believer.

e. No one can be truly saved until and unless he received Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior. Which means that the believer belongs to Christ, who has purchased him with His own blood. We must confess Jesus as "LORD" and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead in order to be saved.

f. This makes the Lord Jesus Christ Lord, Master, Controller, and King over every Christian. The Christian must obey Christ in all things, and the first step of obedience is Christian baptism by immersion, confessing Christ publicly as both Lord and Christ.

g. Notice what Paul says in verse 2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: This is telling the saints that the Lordship of Christ in their lives is critical.

In view of all this if any *Christian* scoffs at the Lordship of Christ, chances are he is not even saved. Study Romans 10 carefully.

 

[throughfaith]

No, that is totally incorrect. We could go into great detail to refute that idea.

Let's start here: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:2,3)

1. Did you notice that right out the the gate, the Lordship of Christ is brought to the forefront? It is significant to note that rarely does Paul call Jesus simply "Jesus". He generally says "Lord Jesus" or "Lord Jesus Christ". Jesus was "Jesus" in His humiliation and His humility. He is now "the Lord Jesus Christ" and when He descends to earth at His second coming He will be "King of kings and LORD of lords".

2. What is the spiritual significance of the fact that Jesus is now "the LORD Jesus Christ"?

a. It confirms that He is God, since none other than God may be called "LORD".

b. It establishes the fact that Christ destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan on the cross, therefor He rose again as a Victor in His resurrection. When He cried "It is finished" that was a cry of victory, and when He "preached to the spirits in prison" in Hades, He proclaimed His victory to all (saints, sinners, and evil angels).

c. It is because Christ rose from the dead on the third day as He promised, God the Father has given Him all authority and power both in Heaven and on earth.

d. This means that God has given Christ TOTAL AUTHORITY over every believer.

e. No one can be truly saved until and unless he received Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior. Which means that the believer belongs to Christ, who has purchased him with His own blood. We must confess Jesus as "LORD" and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead in order to be saved.

f. This makes the Lord Jesus Christ Lord, Master, Controller, and King over every Christian. The Christian must obey Christ in all things, and the first step of obedience is Christian baptism by immersion, confessing Christ publicly as both Lord and Christ.

g. Notice what Paul says in verse 2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: This is telling the saints that the Lordship of Christ in their lives is critical.

In view of all this if any *Christian* scoffs at the Lordship of Christ, chances are he is not even saved. Study Romans 10 carefully.

Great your doing all

Buddy, it is Gospel truth and Bible truth. Either believe it, or be deceived by some other Gospel.

1 cor 15 . 1-4 is the Gospel . We don't make Jesus Lord ,He is Lord .
Notice the words in brackets in this verse .They are added . It should be 'called saints ' . And notice they ARE sanctified .
1¶Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2¶Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that ARE sanctified in Christ Jesus, called ( to be ) saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
No believer can make Jesus into something ..He Just is who He said He is . We just trust and Believe who He said He is . For many good reasons ,not the least raising from the dead . What your promoting which is not found in the bible ( as to the 'how to be saved ) a works based mentality which leads to defeat and despair for the believer.
I always like to ask . what do we have to do to be saved or keep saved ? whats the list and how many things to we have to do ? Obedience , loyalty, a promise of commitment is not the Gospel .

 

[EleventhHour]

Yes this is exactly what I mean . Of course this would be a softer way of putting it ( Got questions are calvinsts , 4 points , which is really no different to 5 points ) And its not just held by Calvinists of course . I believe the book of corinthians refutes Lordship salvation .

Agree... the Church at Corinth presents a major refutation of lordship salvation.

 

[EleventhHour]

Great your doing all
1 cor 15 . 1-4 is the Gospel . We don't make Jesus Lord ,He is Lord .
Notice the words in brackets in this verse .They are added . It should be 'called saints ' . And notice they ARE sanctified .
1¶Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2¶Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that ARE sanctified in Christ Jesus, called ( to be ) saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
No believer can make Jesus into something ..He Just is who He said He is . We just trust and Believe who He said He is . For many good reasons ,not the least raising from the dead . What your promoting which is not found in the bible ( as to the 'how to be saved ) a works based mentality which leads to defeat and despair for the believer.
I always like to ask . what do we have to do to be saved or keep saved ? whats the list and how many things to we have to do ? Obedience , loyalty, a promise of commitment is not the Gospel .

Many cannot articulate the Gospel...I often hear turn from sin another lordship salvation error.

 

[throughfaith]

Buddy, it is Gospel truth and Bible truth. Either believe it, or be deceived by some other Gospel.

We are transformed by a renewal by doing good works, striving to do good , stop sinning , give to charity, help old ladies across the road , stop smoking? no by the renewal of the mind . An inner transformation not a outward rehabilitation. Its through the word of God . Its what we believe that effects what we do . Lordship salvation is the biggest stumbling block to this transformation ,into legalism and stunted growth . It creates Aquariums that hold fish rather than men and women to go catch fish .

 

[EleventhHour]

We are transformed by a renewal by doing good works, striving to do good , stop sinning , give to charity, help old ladies across the road , stop smoking? no by the renewal of the mind . An inner transformation not a outward rehabilitation. Its through the word of God . Its what we believe that effects what we do . Lordship salvation is the biggest stumbling block to this transformation ,into legalism and stunted growth . It creates Aquariums that hold fish rather than men and women to go catch fish .

Amen!!
Lordship salvation is .....finish by works what was started by grace through faith.

 

[throughfaith]

No, that is totally incorrect. We could go into great detail to refute that idea.

Let's start here: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:2,3)

1. Did you notice that right out the the gate, the Lordship of Christ is brought to the forefront? It is significant to note that rarely does Paul call Jesus simply "Jesus". He generally says "Lord Jesus" or "Lord Jesus Christ". Jesus was "Jesus" in His humiliation and His humility. He is now "the Lord Jesus Christ" and when He descends to earth at His second coming He will be "King of kings and LORD of lords".

2. What is the spiritual significance of the fact that Jesus is now "the LORD Jesus Christ"?

a. It confirms that He is God, since none other than God may be called "LORD".

b. It establishes the fact that Christ destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan on the cross, therefor He rose again as a Victor in His resurrection. When He cried "It is finished" that was a cry of victory, and when He "preached to the spirits in prison" in Hades, He proclaimed His victory to all (saints, sinners, and evil angels).

c. It is because Christ rose from the dead on the third day as He promised, God the Father has given Him all authority and power both in Heaven and on earth.

d. This means that God has given Christ TOTAL AUTHORITY over every believer.

e. No one can be truly saved until and unless he received Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior. Which means that the believer belongs to Christ, who has purchased him with His own blood. We must confess Jesus as "LORD" and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead in order to be saved.

f. This makes the Lord Jesus Christ Lord, Master, Controller, and King over every Christian. The Christian must obey Christ in all things, and the first step of obedience is Christian baptism by immersion, confessing Christ publicly as both Lord and Christ.

g. Notice what Paul says in verse 2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: This is telling the saints that the Lordship of Christ in their lives is critical.

In view of all this if any *Christian* scoffs at the Lordship of Christ, chances are he is not even saved. Study Romans 10 carefully.

Lordship salvation ( the debate ) is more than simply noting the difference between ' saviour ' and 'Lord ' . Thats not the issue . As if some believers only want a 'saviour' and not a ' Lord ' . This is about the historical dilemma of what some saw as how to deal with 'behaviour 'in Church . After all you can't have a bunch of 'elect 'folks behaving like the Corinthians. Elect people should be ....fill in the blank . Calvin had his standards , others had clothing , length of skirt ect , chewing gum or smoking. Give people rules in which the elect should measure up to . This was seen as dealing with Antinomianism .
Paul says ALL things are Lawful ,but not all things edify .
1 cor 10 23¶All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
And here's the opposite of that ...
///Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).


John MacArther

 

[throughfaith]

No, that is totally incorrect. We could go into great detail to refute that idea.

Let's start here: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:2,3)

1. Did you notice that right out the the gate, the Lordship of Christ is brought to the forefront? It is significant to note that rarely does Paul call Jesus simply "Jesus". He generally says "Lord Jesus" or "Lord Jesus Christ". Jesus was "Jesus" in His humiliation and His humility. He is now "the Lord Jesus Christ" and when He descends to earth at His second coming He will be "King of kings and LORD of lords".

2. What is the spiritual significance of the fact that Jesus is now "the LORD Jesus Christ"?

a. It confirms that He is God, since none other than God may be called "LORD".

b. It establishes the fact that Christ destroyed the power of sin, Hades, Hell, death, and Satan on the cross, therefor He rose again as a Victor in His resurrection. When He cried "It is finished" that was a cry of victory, and when He "preached to the spirits in prison" in Hades, He proclaimed His victory to all (saints, sinners, and evil angels).

c. It is because Christ rose from the dead on the third day as He promised, God the Father has given Him all authority and power both in Heaven and on earth.

d. This means that God has given Christ TOTAL AUTHORITY over every believer.

e. No one can be truly saved until and unless he received Christ as BOTH Lord and Savior. Which means that the believer belongs to Christ, who has purchased him with His own blood. We must confess Jesus as "LORD" and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead in order to be saved.

f. This makes the Lord Jesus Christ Lord, Master, Controller, and King over every Christian. The Christian must obey Christ in all things, and the first step of obedience is Christian baptism by immersion, confessing Christ publicly as both Lord and Christ.

g. Notice what Paul says in verse 2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: This is telling the saints that the Lordship of Christ in their lives is critical.

In view of all this if any *Christian* scoffs at the Lordship of Christ, chances are he is not even saved. Study Romans 10 carefully.

Lordship salvation ( the debate ) is more than simply noting the difference between ' saviour ' and 'Lord ' . Thats not the issue . As if some believers only want a 'saviour' and not a ' Lord ' . This is about the historical dilemma of what some saw as how to deal with 'behaviour 'in Church . After all you can't have a bunch of 'elect 'folks behaving like the Corinthians. Elect people should be ....fill in the blank . Calvin had his standards , others had clothing , length of skirt ect , chewing gum or smoking. Give people rules in which the elect should measure up to . This was seen as dealing with Antinomianism .
Paul says ALL things are Lawful ,but not all things edify .
1 cor 10 23¶All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

I said I was not following you. So please explain your original comment before questioning me about my question to you.

I said I was not following you. So please explain your original comment before questioning me about my question to you.

We agree it is only for tribulation, which they deny, but they also deny it is required to maintain salvation

is the video from a calvinist saying what you claim?

Yes . Also a quote from John MacArther
Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How's the popcorn? Have you had time to eat it?

I am on my third helping, I keep laying it out for others to join, but no one is eating it. I can’t let it go to waist

I am actually suprised no calvinist are In here sitting the pot, although I have a few on ignore. Maybe they are?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes . Also a quote from John MacArther
Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).

ok calvinist’s, time to shine, do you agree with this?

considering I have never heard on person ever make this claim and this claim goes totally against your own belief that it is god who saves not our free will choices. Yet here if this is true, it is our free will choces that determin if we are saved or not, not regeneration? Is MacArthur a true calvinist? I have never studied his writings?