The BASIC Difference between Arminians and Calvinists

[lenna]

My take on Lordship salvation is that it comes in many disguises . In Calvinism it is right up front and with the likes of John MacArther actually promote the idea . Arminism is very similar but with of course Governed by fear of Losing salvation .( Calvernist version is still governed by fear , and virtue signalling , but is based on Faith being gifted and repentance being a gift also , so of course the emphasis has to be on works in keeping with being a frozen chosen . The Pencostal / Charismatic denominations will sneak it in with 'initial evidence ' coupled with the idea you can forfeit salvation by not enduring to the end ( Perseverance)

interesting thoughts on the disguises

 

[throughfaith]

Would you please educate me on this "initial evidence" teaching? What is that? (Honestly never heard, except if you're talking about tongues which some Pentacostals push as requirement?)

Yes that's it . The idea is that an emphasis is placed in being ' baptised by the Holy Ghost ' a separate and distinct experience from conversion. This is ' evidenced ' by speaking in tongues . its usually sold with the idea that this is the 'power 'for ministry and service . You can run on 3 cylinders but to really really be on fire 🔥 you need all 4 cylinders.

 

[throughfaith]

Would you please educate me on this "initial evidence" teaching? What is that? (Honestly never heard, except if you're talking about tongues which some Pentacostals push as requirement?)

This is compounded with a faulty view of the Book of Acts ( The Acts of the Apostles ) . Believing Acts 2.38 is the normative experience for every believer today . Some of the more subtle less ' out there ' teachers on this would be David Pawson . But of course we have all the charismania and wacky teachers and preachers lining up to tell us we need to make Jesus the Lord of our pocket book and telling you to give or your robbing God . But yes tonuges are a necessary evidence that one has been' Buptised in the Holy Ghost ' a separate a distint experience from conversion .

 

[lenna]

He does not use the term "Lordship Salvation", which apparently has been created by his opponents, as though it is incorrect. But it does not matter what MacArthur says.

except that MacArthur IS using the term and right on his site, so whether or not he coined the phrase (I don't know and frankly do not have the time nor the inclination to see who did and it seems he might have anyway since he is so fond of it)

here it is

An Introduction to Lordship Salvation

I am not against all that he states

 

[SoulWeaver]

Yes that's it . The idea is that an emphasis is placed in being ' baptised by the Holy Ghost ' a separate and distinct experience from conversion. This is ' evidenced ' by speaking in tongues . its usually sold with the idea that this is the 'power 'for ministry and service . You can run on 3 cylinders but to really really be on fire 🔥 you need all 4 cylinders.

I was wondering if you were to say of something else.
As a younger believer I was really scared to death of losing salvation for a good while.
So in order to not drive myself to suicide, whenever I felt afraid and hopeless I reminded myself of Scriptures that Christ will complete His work in me and that I must put my faith into His promises and that He never fails (good thing to do), and also assured myself constantly "see when you believed Jesus your life changed dramatically, you quit some things that weren't possible to quit or stop before, so even though you're not perfect yet that's proof you got saved" (bad to do because still I was not purely relying on God, not walking by faith but trying to walk by sight). I did outgrow this since I grew in faith and know God enough to trust Him.

I thought that might have been what they taught as "initial evidence"... and I'm sure that some churches teach this even if I might not know the term... there's a theological term for everything under the sun.

I like how you see through these denominations, no matter how we call this, there is a common thread there.
I think that thread is man trying to control salvation, proclaim "rules" and seize control over who gets saved and who doesn't.
Instead of actually surrendering to God's leadership.

 

[lenna]

Yes that's it . The idea is that an emphasis is placed in being ' baptised by the Holy Ghost ' a separate and distinct experience from conversion. This is ' evidenced ' by speaking in tongues . its usually sold with the idea that this is the 'power 'for ministry and service . You can run on 3 cylinders but to really really be on fire 🔥 you need all 4 cylinders.

I would not confuse what SOME Pentecostals say regarding tongues with Lordship Salvation. Emphasis does not mean it is connected to the other. No I am not Pentecostal

This is compounded with a faulty view of the Book of Acts ( The Acts of the Apostles ) . Believing Acts 2.38 is the normative experience for every believer today . Some of the more subtle less ' out there ' teachers on this would be David Pawson . But of course we have all the charismania and wacky teachers and preachers lining up to tell us we need to make Jesus the Lord of our pocket book and telling you to give or your robbing God . But yes tonuges are a necessary evidence that one has been' Buptised in the Holy Ghost ' a separate a distint experience from conversion .

that's a lot of lumping together and again, not related. this is another issue altogether I believe

 

[SoulWeaver]

This is compounded with a faulty view of the Book of Acts ( The Acts of the Apostles ) . Believing Acts 2.38 is the normative experience for every believer today . Some of the more subtle less ' out there ' teachers on this would be David Pawson . But of course we have all the charismania and wacky teachers and preachers lining up to tell us we need to make Jesus the Lord of our pocket book and telling you to give or your robbing God . But yes tonuges are a necessary evidence that one has been' Buptised in the Holy Ghost ' a separate a distint experience from conversion .

Yes some teach about these things wrongly. The believers at the Pentecost were already saved. The gifts are also distributed in a diverse way not same gift to the every person, everyone has something to profit the Body every part does something unique.

 

[lenna]

Christ will complete His work in me

well that's it right there and there are many verses and passages in scripture that indicate this to be so

nothing is instant. not the creation of the world, not a tree growing and not a person who understand everything about the One they have accepted as their Savior

it is a process

I can see how the term Lordship Salvation could cause all kinds of guilt in a person every time they think they have committed even the smallest sin

 

[throughfaith]

I was wondering if you were to say of something else.
As a younger believer I was really scared to death of losing salvation for a good while.
So in order to not drive myself to suicide, whenever I felt afraid and hopeless I reminded myself of Scriptures that Christ will complete His work in me and that I must put my faith into His promises and that He never fails (good thing to do), and also assured myself constantly "see when you believed Jesus your life changed dramatically, you quit some things that weren't possible to quit or stop before, so even though you're not perfect yet that's proof you got saved" (bad to do because still I was not purely relying on God, not walking by faith but trying to walk by sight). I did outgrow this since I grew in faith and know God enough to trust Him.

I thought that might have been what they taught as "initial evidence"... and I'm sure that some churches teach this even if I might not know the term... there's a theological term for everything under the sun.

I like how you see through these denominations, no matter how we call this, there is a common thread there.
I think that thread is man trying to control salvation, proclaim "rules" and seize control over who gets saved and who doesn't.
Instead of actually surrendering to God's leadership.

Amen . So true . Yes its virtue signalling, control over others .

 

[throughfaith]

I would not confuse what SOME Pentecostals say regarding tongues with Lordship Salvation. Emphasis does not mean it is connected to the other. No I am not Pentecostal



that's a lot of lumping together and again, not related. this is another issue altogether I believe

I would argue that nearly all who teach conditional salvation , are preaching Lordship salvation essentially. I don't know many pentacostals who don't believe you can forfeit salvation . Most Methodists/ Pentecostal/ Charismatic/ teach you can lose salvation.

 

[crossnote]

One of the problems Calvinists have is in their doctrine of Limited Atonement. They'll say that Christ died for the elect, which begs the question, "How do I know He died for me?" This is where they point to your works as evidence of your calling. Consequently, one quickly finds himself on that treadmill. To keep them on that treadmill, one is continually encouraged to 'to examine oneself to see if they are in the faith'. This consequentially turns ones eyes away from Jesus.

 

[throughfaith]

One of the problems Calvinists have is in their doctrine of Limited Atonement. They'll say that Christ died for the elect, which begs the question, "How do I know He died for me?" This is where they point to your works as evidence of your calling. Consequently, one quickly finds himself on that treadmill. To keep them on that treadmill, one is continually encouraged to 'to examine oneself to see if they are in the faith'. This consequentially turns ones eyes away from Jesus.

You put it better than I did here .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Definitely don't let it go to waist, central obesity is dangerous. We need you here and in good health.
Here's some black coffee for you.... 3 calories

Sadly my midsection is in sad shape I need all the help I can get

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My take on Lordship salvation is that it comes in many disguises . In Calvinism it is right up front and with the likes of John MacArther actually promote the idea . Arminism is very similar but with of course Governed by fear of Losing salvation .( Calvernist version is still governed by fear , and virtue signalling , but is based on Faith being gifted and repentance being a gift also , so of course the emphasis has to be on works in keeping with being a frozen chosen . The Pencostal / Charismatic denominations will sneak it in with 'initial evidence ' coupled with the idea you can forfeit salvation by not enduring to the end ( Perseverance)

I have yet to meet a Calvinist who fears of not being saved

Why do you insist to misrepresent them

I may not like their teachings. But it’s wrong to Misrepresent then

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He should be saying 'one is only saved if they had been born again'.

I would think one is born again only if they are saved

 

[crossnote]

You put it better than I did here .

I've also been there and bought their 'T' (tulip) shirt for a wee while lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would not confuse what SOME Pentecostals say regarding tongues with Lordship Salvation. Emphasis does not mean it is connected to the other. No I am not Pentecostal



that's a lot of lumping together and again, not related. this is another issue altogether I believe

Pentecostles and lordship? lol now I have heard everything

 

[crossnote]

I would think one is born again only if they are saved

Right, but I was comparing it to 'Lordship Salvation' in my post.
I wouldn't put precedence one over the other i.e. born again vs truly saved.

 

[lenna]

I would argue that nearly all who teach conditional salvation , are preaching Lordship salvation essentially. I don't know many pentacostals who don't believe you can forfeit salvation . Most Methodists/ Pentecostal/ Charismatic/ teach you can lose salvation.

I was referring to the connection you made with tongues.

 

[lenna]

I would argue that nearly all who teach conditional salvation , are preaching Lordship salvation essentially. I don't know many pentacostals who don't believe you can forfeit salvation . Most Methodists/ Pentecostal/ Charismatic/ teach you can lose salvation.

ummm

not making that connection myself