The Best Church for You - By Brother James L. Melton

[SarahM777]

Sarah this ain't about picking and choosing, it is about context here. The Hebrew words “kokhve voqer” are no where in Isaiah 14:12, that fact has already been established.

Now I noticed you never answered my question Sarah, so I will ask again. Do you have an old NIV?

And if you do, have you taken a look to see if it has those same footnotes for Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19 which I listed in the earlier post?

If you do have an old NIV, then please look this stuff up on your own. Because it seems to me that you are searching for answers. For why I am against the NIV, and rightly so. For it is a wicked bible perversion that attempts to equate our Lord Jesus Christ with Lucifer.

The title of morning star is only given to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Scriptures. And as I showed in the previous post to Rachel, the Hebrew word Helel is also translated as Lucifer by the Earlier English Bibles. Such as the Coverdale, Geneva, Bishop's Bible, etc.

And no, the argument you are presenting Sarah would not work. Because Jesus Christ himself is making the declaration in Revelation 22:16. In the context of Revelation 22; morning star is given as a title. And our Lord Jesus Christ is declaring that He is the bright and morning star. The word the (indefinite article) is being used in Revelation 22:16, showing that morning star is given as a title. And I also pointed out already that morning star (singular) is not at all capitalized anywhere in the King James Bible. It is all lowercase.

Chosen,

It seems you're picking and choosing how you want to see it,on one hand it doesn't make a difference in the KJV but it most certainly does in the NIV. On one hand you ignore Job 38 and say it makes no difference when both say morning star(s) which would indicate by your logic that Jesus then is nothing more then an angel,but that is a OK with you,but then you turn around and say it does make a difference when in Isaiah the NIV says morning star and in Rev it say the bright Morning Star is making it say one and the same. Yet in both cases when taking those verses within the CONTEXT of the verses you can't make it say one and the same. It seems you're using flawed logic.

I do have an old NIV,the pre 1984.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Again Rachel, "morning" and "star" is not in any Hebrew Text for Isaiah 14:12 as Will Kinney pointed out in his article (Lucifer or Morning Star).

what a silly argument...

it doesn't have to say 'kokhab boqer' in the hebrew because it says 'heylel' instead...you know what a -synonym- is right?

now why are you so adamant about letting satan hide behind a latin alias?

 

[homwardbound]

Agricola, the work of Satan is always the twisting of Scripture. That is how Satan operates. If you remember how he deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden. How did he deceive her? What was his method?

It was questioning God's word. Causing her to doubt the word of God.

And when you have "teachers" and "professors" telling you that this should have been translated this way, or a "better rendering would be" and so on, what that professor or teacher is doing is causing you to doubt the word of God.

It is called the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Which Jesus hates. See Revelation 2:6 and Revelation 2:15.

These professors who think they are smarter than God, people like Doug Kutilek and James White have set up their own minds as the final authority. They like to hold the preeminence over the laity.

See? They think that if you don't understand what the "Original Greek" said then you can't understand the Bible. That's what they think. And none of them have a perfect Bible which they can recommend to someone.

And again; I said this before, I am not sure what Brother Terry Watkin's point was on the nose ring rendering.

I do believe that the KJV rendering in that verse about Rebekah was referring to a nose ring, after reading and examining the context of the passage.

But I do agree with him a lot doctrinally.

Okay, I know that Brother Terry Watkins is not perfect just like I am not perfect. But let me tell you he hits on a lot of good points when it comes to the doctrinal changes in the new versions. He has also written many articles covering a range of different issues. Go and check out his website. And see for yourself, the amount of studying and research that this brother in the Lord has done.

So, maybe do this, seek the gold nuggets out, God who lives in us, I am sure will let us know. for the truth sets one free and we shall be free indeed. So God does the separating of error and truth.
What is error? Bondage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So maybe anytime I am in bondage, just maybe I might need to re-think my truth
There are biblical translational errors some more than others
So who is our teacher?
1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

So who is it that teaches us? The infallible word, the KJV or Christ himself through the Holy Ghost?

 

[homwardbound]

I smell a grace community affiliate. Tired of these conversations. My brother goes to one of these churches. It came down to one last conversation as he bashed with as much conviction and dogma as a great Mormon missionary. "If you can accept me at my word that I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected in 3 days to bring us into abundant life here and the hereafter, do you believe I'm a Christian?" That's that. No more discussion. It will simply turn to argument and the body if Christ needs no more division.

And it really does not matter what others believe if you are saved or not, because each person knows whether they are saved or not by the confirmation of being sealed by God the first day of belief, that Christ did what Christ and God the Father raised him from the dead.
[h=3]Ephesians 1:6-13[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, [SUP]9 [/SUP]he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Agricola]

I don't get it. This verse means the same thing capitalized or not capitalized. You're thinking people reading it will be saved by a capitalization or damned by lowercase lettering? Aren't we kind of missing the big picture here?

Yes the big picture is that Chosenbyhim is part of the King James only cult who assume that the King James Bible is the final God inspired divine Bible which everyone in the world should be reading and that any other Bible is the work of Satan, even just changing a single word or letter in a Bible other than King James, well thats the work of Satan to corrupt Gods word.

This is a cult and the fact chosenbyhim fails to engage in any serious debate ,but simply repeats the mantra and rehtoric everytime he his shown wrong, well that is classic cult member behaviour.

 

[Agricola]

And again; I said this before, I am not sure what Brother Terry Watkin's point was on the nose ring rendering.

It is the rantings of a lunatic, so theres no logical point apart from in his own head.

I do believe that the KJV rendering in that verse about Rebekah was referring to a nose ring, after reading and examining the context of the passage.

So you are capable of thinking for yourself and yes its obvious its a nose ring, so how many other objections to verses listed in the copy and paste jobs are also wrong?

But I do agree with him a lot doctrinally.

Okay, I know that Brother Terry Watkins is not perfect just like I am not perfect. But let me tell you he hits on a lot of good points when it comes to the doctrinal changes in the new versions. He has also written many articles covering a range of different issues. Go and check out his website. And see for yourself, the amount of studying and research that this brother in the Lord has done.

So you admit he was wrong on minor points, but right on the main points?

If you go to a lecture on mathematics and the professor stands up front and tells you that 35+50 = 100, then are you going to really trust him when he gets on to advanced calculus? This is no different, following a human who has gone miles down the conspiracy route that he now sees evil in every discrepancy between King James and anything else which comes along.

Again I point out that if other Bibles are evil, then why does the Holy Spirit allow me to use them and shows me stuff in them?

 

[jinx]

What is a "grace community affiliate"?
We have a church called grace bible down the road, I wonder if it is the same thing.

I smell a grace community affiliate. Tired of these conversations. My brother goes to one of these churches. It came down to one last conversation as he bashed with as much conviction and dogma as a great Mormon missionary. "If you can accept me at my word that I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected in 3 days to bring us into abundant life here and the hereafter, do you believe I'm a Christian?" That's that. No more discussion. It will simply turn to argument and the body if Christ needs no more division.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

what a silly argument...

it doesn't have to say 'kokhab boqer' in the hebrew because it says 'heylel' instead...you know what a -synonym- is right?

now why are you so adamant about letting satan hide behind a latin alias?

No Rachel, it is not. It is a valid argument. The Hebrew word for "morning star" is boqer kowkab.

Well Rachel, Lucifer simply means "Light Bearer." And that name fits perfectly with the description which the Apostle Paul gave of Satan in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

Furthermore, when we compare Scripture with Scripture we see that morning star or day star is not the right rendering for Heylel in Isaiah 14:12, because the Day Star in 2 Peter 1:19 is the Sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), which is the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Chosen,

It seems you're picking and choosing how you want to see it,on one hand it doesn't make a difference in the KJV but it most certainly does in the NIV. On one hand you ignore Job 38 and say it makes no difference when both say morning star(s) which would indicate by your logic that Jesus then is nothing more then an angel,but that is a OK with you,but then you turn around and say it does make a difference when in Isaiah the NIV says morning star and in Rev it say the bright Morning Star is making it say one and the same. Yet in both cases when taking those verses within the CONTEXT of the verses you can't make it say one and the same. It seems you're using flawed logic.

I do have an old NIV,the pre 1984.

No Sarah; I did not ignore the passage in Job 38, I already told you that I was aware of that passage and I acknowledge it. But what my point was this; the Authorized Version does not have morning star capitalized at all. So I don't see how you are getting your argument about Jesus supposedly being an angel, just because mornin star is not capitalized in Revelation 22:16 in tge Authorized Version. When reading the context of Revelation 22 and with comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see that morning star (as a title for the Lord Jesus Christ) is only used once as a title. No where else is morning star used as a title. And where it is used as a title (Rev. 22:16) it is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is declaring Himself and identitifying Himself with that title.

Okay; well if you have an old NIV, then why don't you look in their to see if those same footnotes which I listed are in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19? Check the NIV's own footnotes in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19 and they will show you who they believe fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12.

 

[SarahM777]

No Sarah; I did not ignore the passage in Job 38, I already told you that I was aware of that passage and I acknowledge it. But what my point was this; the Authorized Version does not have morning star capitalized at all. So I don't see how you are getting your argument about Jesus supposedly being an angel, just because mornin star is not capitalized in Revelation 22:16 in tge Authorized Version. When reading the context of Revelation 22 and with comparing Scripture with Scripture, we see that morning star (as a title for the Lord Jesus Christ) is only used once as a title. No where else is morning star used as a title. And where it is used as a title (Rev. 22:16) it is our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is declaring Himself and identitifying Himself with that title.

Okay; well if you have an old NIV, then why don't you look in their to see if those same footnotes which I listed are in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19? Check the NIV's own footnotes in Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19 and they will show you who they believe fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12.

So in essence what it sounds like you are saying is that CONTEXT DOES NOT MATTER in the NIV it only matters in the KJV.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So in essence what it sounds like you are saying is that CONTEXT DOES NOT MATTER in the NIV it only matters in the KJV.

[HR][/HR]
No. Context is important. But "morning star" or "day star" like the other modern translations have it, is a very poor mistranslation that results in blasphemy. And I have alredy proven that Sarah with the fact that in their very own footnotes, they show that they (translators behind the NIV) believe it was Jesus who fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12, rather than Lucifer. That's why their footnote in Isa.14:12 points you to 2Pe. 1:19, and their footnote in 2Pe. 1:19 then points you to Rev. 22:16. There is no getting around that Sarah. Again, look up those passages ok your old NIV and see how each of their footnotes cross reference each other.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

The Real Bible ( King James Bible) says that it was Lucifer who fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12.

 

[SarahM777]

[HR][/HR]
No. Context is important. But "morning star" or "day star" like the other modern translations have it, is a very poor mistranslation that results in blasphemy. And I have alredy proven that Sarah with the fact that in their very own footnotes, they show that they (translators behind the NIV) believe it was Jesus who fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12, rather than Lucifer. That's why their footnote in Isa.14:12 points you to 2Pe. 1:19, and their footnote in 2Pe. 1:19 then points you to Rev. 22:16. There is no getting around that Sarah. Again, look up those passages ok your old NIV and see how each of their footnotes cross reference each other.

Sorry Chosen,

But that footnote you say is there is NOT in my NIV. (I Bought mine BEFORE 1984) Here is a scan of the page.

 

[Jordache]

Jinx,
Grace Community is a large church in Los Angeles. John MacArthur is an great preacher. For the most part he is right on, and though I do not agree with some of his doctrine he knows his stuff. Unfortunately, his church has been sarcastically coined the church without grace. They raise very intelligent and confidant Christians who bash you with graceless rhetoric about your lack of salvation in regards to you not agreeing with cessationism, KJV only, and dispensationism. Don't get me wrong. John MacArthur is brilliant. Just be cautious.
This church has affiliations all over. I knew my brother was a Christian for a long time but because he lived so far away I never got a chance to talk to him about it. When I did I was shocked. My question to him was not for him to approve of my salvation. I simply wanted to be forthright with establishing that we were on the same page where it was important and nothing else mattered if it was going to cause division.
When I was researching my brothers church I found it listed on a website of a group of Grace churches. There are many churches with similar names that do not have the same doctrine. Grce Community affiliates are dispensationalists, cessationists, have a well-trained mantra about their beliefs, and tend to be lacking in grace. When I had my run in with my brother many yrs ago it felt like I was debating a Mormon or JW. He'd been trained with a list of verses to combat every question. It was like he had memorized a script.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Sorry Chosen,

But that footnote you say is there is NOT in my NIV. (I Bought mine BEFORE 1984) Here is a scan of the page.

View attachment 52273

Interesting. Okay, thanks Sarah. I will just have to scan the pages of the NIV which I have access to. Of course I did already mention to you though that not all editions of the NIV will have those footnotes.

But even without the footnotes being in your version, you can still see that the NIV calls Jesus the "morning star" with all lowercase letters. Here is proof of this:


2 Peter 1:19-21 New International Version (NIV)

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.



Revelation 2:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 I will also give that one the morning star.

 

[SarahM777]

Interesting. Okay, thanks Sarah. I will just have to scan the pages of the NIV which I have access to. Of course I did already mention to you though that not all editions of the NIV will have those footnotes.

But even without the footnotes being in your version, you can still see that the NIV calls Jesus the "morning star" with all lowercase letters. Here is proof of this:


2 Peter 1:19-21 New International Version (NIV)

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.



Revelation 2:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 I will also give that one the morning star.

UMM Mine is the original version I bought it 1979.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

UMM Mine is the original version I bought it 1979.

Okay. Those footnotes may be in the 1984 edition then. But still it is very evident that the NIV makes Jesus and Satan to be one. And it was shown that that is exactly what the NIV does in the previous post.

 

[SarahM777]

Okay. Those footnotes may be in the 1984 edition then. But still it is very evident that the NIV makes Jesus and Satan to be one. And it was shown that that is exactly what the NIV does in the previous post.

UMM Chosen,

Just one last question as I see this going no where. If my understanding of the passage of Isaiah is that it was an angelic being that rebelled and I do NOT see that it is referring to Jesus,perhaps is it that the Lord has shown me the meaning of the passage? Could it be that in your quest you are saying that people are reading things that are just NOT there?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

UMM Chosen,

Just one last question as I see this going no where. If my understanding of the passage of Isaiah is that it was an angelic being that rebelled and I do NOT see that it is referring to Jesus,perhaps is it that the Lord has shown me the meaning of the passage? Could it be that in your quest you are saying that people are reading things that are just NOT there?

Well I already showed you that the NIV makes no distinction between whether morning star is capitalized or not, because I showed that in both 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 2:28, morning star is lower case and they are referring to Jesus in both passages, hence the NIV makes Jesus and Satan one. And that is a fact.

Well there are thousands of Bible believing Christians, both pastors, preachers, and other students of the Bible who know that the NIV makes Jesus and the Lucifer one by replacing Lucifer with morning star in Isaiah 14:12. And I already told you Sarah, the NIV is a satanic bible. It is subtit in how it changes the doctrine of salvation, it is subtil in how it carries catholic doctrine into its text, and it also subtil in how it attacks the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is to no surprise because Satan is subtil ( see Genesis 3:1).

I mean you can try to justify the NIV all you want, but at least if you don't come to the truth on this issue, at least you and every other Christian will get to see which side was right at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

 

[SarahM777]

Well I already showed you that the NIV makes no distinction between whether morning star is capitalized or not, because I showed that in both 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 2:28, morning star is lower case and they are referring to Jesus in both passages, hence the NIV makes Jesus and Satan one. And that is a fact.

Well there are thousands of Bible believing Christians, both pastors, preachers, and other students of the Bible who know that the NIV makes Jesus and the Lucifer one by replacing Lucifer with morning star in Isaiah 14:12. And I already told you Sarah, the NIV is a satanic bible. It is subtit in how it changes the doctrine of salvation, it is subtil in how it carries catholic doctrine into its text, and it also subtil in how it attacks the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is to no surprise because Satan is subtil ( see Genesis 3:1).

I mean you can try to justify the NIV all you want, but at least if you don't come to the truth on this issue, at least you and every other Christian will get to see which side was right at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Sorry Chosen

you're wrong the NIV does make a distinction

Revelation 22:16

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a]this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Revelation 22:16 KJV

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

IT IS THE KJV THAT DOES NOT CAPITALIZE HIS TITLE.