But Chosen by using the same logic that you using to say the NIV is saying Jesus is the one who fell (Which I don't believe) the KJV is saying that Jesus is just an angel. Because if Jesus is just one of the morning stars that makes Him just an angel. (Which of course in not true) That of course is picking and choosing the verses I want to prove the point.
The Best Church for You - By Brother James L. Melton
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Well I think I already answered your question in the second to last post of mine. Morning Star (Capitalized) does not show up in the Authorized Version. Only morning star (lowercase) does. And it shows up two times.
And yeah I have been aware of the morning stars that are mentioned in Job 38, and frankly I really am not sure. It could be referring to the angels that were present at the time when God was creating the earth and laying the foundations of it.
And remember that Satan, before he fell, in other words, when Satan was still Lucifer, he was not an angel. He was a Cherub. There is a difference.
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. - Ezekiel 28:11-19 (Holy Bible)
But let me ask you Sarah, do you have an old NIV bible? And if you do, have you looked to see if those footnotes appear in your NIV?
And one other thing; I looked up Revelation 22:16 in several of the modern versions and some capitalize the phrase morning star while others do not:
New International Version (©2011)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
New Living Translation (©2007)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star."
English Standard Version (©2001)
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star."
International Standard Version (©2012)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give this testimony to you for the churches. I am the root and descendent of David, the bright morning star."
NET Bible (©2006)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!"
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)I, Yeshua, have sent my Angel to testify these things among you before the assemblies. I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Root and The Offspring of David, and his Companion, and The Bright Morning Star.”
New King James Version
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
See, some of the modern versions have capitalized the phrase morning star and some have not capitalized it.
So, it is clear that there is only one morning star (singular) that the NIV could be referring to whether they have the phrase morning star capitalized or not.
And yeah I have been aware of the morning stars that are mentioned in Job 38, and frankly I really am not sure. It could be referring to the angels that were present at the time when God was creating the earth and laying the foundations of it.
And remember that Satan, before he fell, in other words, when Satan was still Lucifer, he was not an angel. He was a Cherub. There is a difference.
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. - Ezekiel 28:11-19 (Holy Bible)
But let me ask you Sarah, do you have an old NIV bible? And if you do, have you looked to see if those footnotes appear in your NIV?
And one other thing; I looked up Revelation 22:16 in several of the modern versions and some capitalize the phrase morning star while others do not:
New International Version (©2011)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
New Living Translation (©2007)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star."
English Standard Version (©2001)
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to attest these things to you for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright Morning Star."
International Standard Version (©2012)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give this testimony to you for the churches. I am the root and descendent of David, the bright morning star."
NET Bible (©2006)
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!"
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)I, Yeshua, have sent my Angel to testify these things among you before the assemblies. I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Root and The Offspring of David, and his Companion, and The Bright Morning Star.”
New King James Version
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
See, some of the modern versions have capitalized the phrase morning star and some have not capitalized it.
So, it is clear that there is only one morning star (singular) that the NIV could be referring to whether they have the phrase morning star capitalized or not.
Chosen,
Think it through. By the same method you use to show that the NIV takes away from Jesus deity it can be shown that the KJV DOES THE VERY SAME THING. In the KJV you have Job 38 which says morning stars,then you have Rev 22 which then says morning star neither capitalized. If in Job morning stars is a reference to angels (non capitalized,plural to singular,non capitalized) then that means Jesus is an angel. Remember you used that same argument with the difference between son and Son. You can't pick and choose which way you want to use it one time and then change it the next time.
Think it through. By the same method you use to show that the NIV takes away from Jesus deity it can be shown that the KJV DOES THE VERY SAME THING. In the KJV you have Job 38 which says morning stars,then you have Rev 22 which then says morning star neither capitalized. If in Job morning stars is a reference to angels (non capitalized,plural to singular,non capitalized) then that means Jesus is an angel. Remember you used that same argument with the difference between son and Son. You can't pick and choose which way you want to use it one time and then change it the next time.
R
Funny how we all seem to know more about different religions, or faith's and Belief's. We tend to study more and be fascinated with what other people believe in or doing in there belief's. If we all harness that energy in preaching the Gospel, one wonders how many would be more saved? We as Christians know, what ever faith, religion, or belief. That satan has put his evil spirit of confusion into all religions, faith's and belief's and still doing it today with newly found religions. He also puts the spirit of interests in them, so when people think woe?, what is all this about?, the minute you show any interest, he has you. In time, he creeps in your daily life so cunningly, and start robbing you of your time, in end you are so interested in this new religion that is causing a stir, even if it's against in what you believe, you be taken in. Clever? well yes from satans point of view, but from yours? well you don't get the chance to see how cleverness when he has manipulated your mind, stealing your time. and taken you away from God.
We have a Good God on our side. our God has won, so any spiritual battle you face, face it with God. We serve a God, that every Demon, and even satan is scared of and bow down to. we serve a God that is the all powerful. So why are we interested in what church is best for you? Why are we know so much about the errors of KJV Bible? why do we know more about other religions and there downfalls and errors and badness? Lets harness all that energy and go out and preach the Gospel that Jesus has given us to do. Why waste our time on the negative? why make excuses and say oh we only doing it just to know so we can warn. Well that is good in all, but Let God warn those through his judgment and his wrath.
I am not making a judgemental comment at you all, nor am I pointing the finger at you. but we do need to ask ourselves about our time we making for other things other than our God we serve. We are living in the last days. lets concentrate our energy in getting people saved. And put aside just for one minute all the interests in other religions. Don't leave it all to God, Yes God can do anything and everything. But remember, we don't work FOR God, We work With God. and through him, all things are possible.
We have a Good God on our side. our God has won, so any spiritual battle you face, face it with God. We serve a God, that every Demon, and even satan is scared of and bow down to. we serve a God that is the all powerful. So why are we interested in what church is best for you? Why are we know so much about the errors of KJV Bible? why do we know more about other religions and there downfalls and errors and badness? Lets harness all that energy and go out and preach the Gospel that Jesus has given us to do. Why waste our time on the negative? why make excuses and say oh we only doing it just to know so we can warn. Well that is good in all, but Let God warn those through his judgment and his wrath.
I am not making a judgemental comment at you all, nor am I pointing the finger at you. but we do need to ask ourselves about our time we making for other things other than our God we serve. We are living in the last days. lets concentrate our energy in getting people saved. And put aside just for one minute all the interests in other religions. Don't leave it all to God, Yes God can do anything and everything. But remember, we don't work FOR God, We work With God. and through him, all things are possible.
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Yes some differences are silly to argue over, especially when its end time prophecy, but when you end up with people like Chosenbyhim, who constantly post about how the King James Bible is the final authority Bible and all other Bibles will send you to Hell and are written by satan, then we do have to take a stand against that cult just as any other cult.
R
Again leave that to God, we cant do things like that in our strength. we can go so far. but not all the way. So leave those battles to God. and concentrate on preaching the good news, preaching the Gospel, and concentrate in doing what God has asked us to do. I'm sure God did not ask you to take care about the KJV issues? or get concerned about satan's doings. Just remember these things are part of a prophesy that is to happen, or already has happened. who are we to divulge into things that are meant to happen? Long's you are reading your bible, long's you a doing God's small request of us all. God will deal with the rest.
Sorry Ritchie,
But we are told to contend for the faith
Jude 1
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Philippians 1
7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart and, whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me. 8 God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
But we are told to contend for the faith
Jude 1
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.
Philippians 1
7 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart and, whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God’s grace with me. 8 God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
R
there are three usages of 'morning star' in the bible...
the first usage is the actual morning star in the created natural world...either the planet venus or mercury or both...mentioned in job 3:9 and figuratively in 2 peter 1:19...
the second usage refers to a member of a choir of angelic beings who handled musical praise...these are mentioned in job 38:7 and isaiah 14:12...satan was originally one of these morning stars...
the third usage is actually called not merely the morning star but the -bright- and morning star...this is a title held only by jesus...
the first usage is the actual morning star in the created natural world...either the planet venus or mercury or both...mentioned in job 3:9 and figuratively in 2 peter 1:19...
the second usage refers to a member of a choir of angelic beings who handled musical praise...these are mentioned in job 38:7 and isaiah 14:12...satan was originally one of these morning stars...
the third usage is actually called not merely the morning star but the -bright- and morning star...this is a title held only by jesus...
cult??? really???
no one is putting a gun to my head making me proclaim the oneness of GOD. I can leave the church any time I choose to leave, when your in a cult you cannot.
what is your idea of a cult?
do tell.
dictionary.com is usefull
no one is putting a gun to my head making me proclaim the oneness of GOD. I can leave the church any time I choose to leave, when your in a cult you cannot.
what is your idea of a cult?
do tell.
dictionary.com is usefull
cult definition
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3
: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4
: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5
a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b : the object of such devotion
c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
J
So. I don't worship past saints (catholics) or people that claim to have a mighty word from GOD (mormon) .
instead, I go to church, I worship GOD, I listen to preaching just like everyone else about the power of the blood, and I go home, after hitting the local DQ. When I pray~~ I pray to GOD. When I read the bible, I choose any bible I want, (I like NLT) I dress modest, I don't cuss, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I repent of my sins just like everyone else, and I help others when I can.
If I want to, I can go to a bar, shoot up heroin, and murder a neighborhood dog, the church doesn't keep me on a leash. (not that I would cause that is just horrible)
Does this sound like I'm in a cult?
no. Christian just like the rest in here.
cult is a strong word, almost like hate.
careful how you use it.
instead, I go to church, I worship GOD, I listen to preaching just like everyone else about the power of the blood, and I go home, after hitting the local DQ. When I pray~~ I pray to GOD. When I read the bible, I choose any bible I want, (I like NLT) I dress modest, I don't cuss, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I repent of my sins just like everyone else, and I help others when I can.
If I want to, I can go to a bar, shoot up heroin, and murder a neighborhood dog, the church doesn't keep me on a leash. (not that I would cause that is just horrible)
Does this sound like I'm in a cult?
no. Christian just like the rest in here.
cult is a strong word, almost like hate.
careful how you use it.
Agricola, the work of Satan is always the twisting of Scripture. That is how Satan operates. If you remember how he deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden. How did he deceive her? What was his method?
It was questioning God's word. Causing her to doubt the word of God.
And when you have "teachers" and "professors" telling you that this should have been translated this way, or a "better rendering would be" and so on, what that professor or teacher is doing is causing you to doubt the word of God.
It is called the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Which Jesus hates. See Revelation 2:6 and Revelation 2:15.
These professors who think they are smarter than God, people like Doug Kutilek and James White have set up their own minds as the final authority. They like to hold the preeminence over the laity.
See? They think that if you don't understand what the "Original Greek" said then you can't understand the Bible. That's what they think. And none of them have a perfect Bible which they can recommend to someone.
And again; I said this before, I am not sure what Brother Terry Watkin's point was on the nose ring rendering.
I do believe that the KJV rendering in that verse about Rebekah was referring to a nose ring, after reading and examining the context of the passage.
But I do agree with him a lot doctrinally.
Okay, I know that Brother Terry Watkins is not perfect just like I am not perfect. But let me tell you he hits on a lot of good points when it comes to the doctrinal changes in the new versions. He has also written many articles covering a range of different issues. Go and check out his website. And see for yourself, the amount of studying and research that this brother in the Lord has done.
It was questioning God's word. Causing her to doubt the word of God.
And when you have "teachers" and "professors" telling you that this should have been translated this way, or a "better rendering would be" and so on, what that professor or teacher is doing is causing you to doubt the word of God.
It is called the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Which Jesus hates. See Revelation 2:6 and Revelation 2:15.
These professors who think they are smarter than God, people like Doug Kutilek and James White have set up their own minds as the final authority. They like to hold the preeminence over the laity.
See? They think that if you don't understand what the "Original Greek" said then you can't understand the Bible. That's what they think. And none of them have a perfect Bible which they can recommend to someone.
And again; I said this before, I am not sure what Brother Terry Watkin's point was on the nose ring rendering.
I do believe that the KJV rendering in that verse about Rebekah was referring to a nose ring, after reading and examining the context of the passage.
But I do agree with him a lot doctrinally.
Okay, I know that Brother Terry Watkins is not perfect just like I am not perfect. But let me tell you he hits on a lot of good points when it comes to the doctrinal changes in the new versions. He has also written many articles covering a range of different issues. Go and check out his website. And see for yourself, the amount of studying and research that this brother in the Lord has done.
Again Rachel, "morning" and "star" is not in any Hebrew Text for Isaiah 14:12 as Will Kinney pointed out in his article (Lucifer or Morning Star).
So the NIV and any other version that translates it as such is in error.
And they are following Mormon doctrine.
And in the Scriptures morning star (singular) only appears twice. Once in Revelation 2:28 and the other in Revelation 22:16.
Also, if Satan was originally one of the morning stars, then wouldn't he have to have been an angel?
Last time I searched in the Scriptures, Satan is described as a cherub.
Furthermore, here are some of the earlier English translations which also translated it as Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12:
Isaiah 14:12
12 A! Lucifer, that risidist eerli, hou feldist thou doun fro heuene; thou that woundist folkis, feldist doun togidere in to erthe. - (John Wycliffe's Translation)
How art thou fallen from heauen, O Lucifer, sonne of the morning? and cutte downe to the grounde, which didest cast lottes vpon the nations? - (1587 Geneva Bible)
In addition to the John Wycliffe's Translation and Geneva Bible having rendered the Hebrew word Helel as Lucifer, so do these English Bibles: Cover Dale's 1535, The Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, and The Bishop's Bible 1568.
And again; The Hebrew words: “kokhve voqer” which are for "Morning Stars" do not show up at all in Isaiah 14:12.
Sarah this ain't about picking and choosing, it is about context here. The Hebrew words “kokhve voqer” are no where in Isaiah 14:12, that fact has already been established.
Now I noticed you never answered my question Sarah, so I will ask again. Do you have an old NIV?
And if you do, have you taken a look to see if it has those same footnotes for Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19 which I listed in the earlier post?
If you do have an old NIV, then please look this stuff up on your own. Because it seems to me that you are searching for answers. For why I am against the NIV, and rightly so. For it is a wicked bible perversion that attempts to equate our Lord Jesus Christ with Lucifer.
The title of morning star is only given to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Scriptures. And as I showed in the previous post to Rachel, the Hebrew word Helel is also translated as Lucifer by the Earlier English Bibles. Such as the Coverdale, Geneva, Bishop's Bible, etc.
And no, the argument you are presenting Sarah would not work. Because Jesus Christ himself is making the declaration in Revelation 22:16. In the context of Revelation 22; morning star is given as a title. And our Lord Jesus Christ is declaring that He is the bright and morning star. The word the (indefinite article) is being used in Revelation 22:16, showing that morning star is given as a title. And I also pointed out already that morning star (singular) is not at all capitalized anywhere in the King James Bible. It is all lowercase.
Now I noticed you never answered my question Sarah, so I will ask again. Do you have an old NIV?
And if you do, have you taken a look to see if it has those same footnotes for Isaiah 14:12 and 2 Peter 1:19 which I listed in the earlier post?
If you do have an old NIV, then please look this stuff up on your own. Because it seems to me that you are searching for answers. For why I am against the NIV, and rightly so. For it is a wicked bible perversion that attempts to equate our Lord Jesus Christ with Lucifer.
The title of morning star is only given to the Lord Jesus Christ in the Scriptures. And as I showed in the previous post to Rachel, the Hebrew word Helel is also translated as Lucifer by the Earlier English Bibles. Such as the Coverdale, Geneva, Bishop's Bible, etc.
And no, the argument you are presenting Sarah would not work. Because Jesus Christ himself is making the declaration in Revelation 22:16. In the context of Revelation 22; morning star is given as a title. And our Lord Jesus Christ is declaring that He is the bright and morning star. The word the (indefinite article) is being used in Revelation 22:16, showing that morning star is given as a title. And I also pointed out already that morning star (singular) is not at all capitalized anywhere in the King James Bible. It is all lowercase.
J
I smell a grace community affiliate. Tired of these conversations. My brother goes to one of these churches. It came down to one last conversation as he bashed with as much conviction and dogma as a great Mormon missionary. "If you can accept me at my word that I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected in 3 days to bring us into abundant life here and the hereafter, do you believe I'm a Christian?" That's that. No more discussion. It will simply turn to argument and the body if Christ needs no more division.