The cultic origins of Annihilationism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
818
113
And also, the verse you gave there also has helped me to better understand the verse that says it will be better off/more tolerable on the day of judgement for Sodom than for some others. So thanks again. :)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,708
1,042
113
As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.
People buried underground do not thirst for water they have no bladder to help keep themselves keep hydrated, nor lips to put their mouth up the cup.

Yes, those who are born again take it by the force of the Holy Spirit living in them. There is no suggestion in the scripture to ignore the spiritual understanding hid in parables and look for the literal. The literal letter of the law as that which we literally read kills .

The unseen spiritual or signified understanding heals raising those to new spirit life of those who knew not Christ from those deader than a door nail in their trespasses and sin, without God, without a living hope.

Matthew 11:12 K12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force

The spiritual meaning in that parable is .If they hear not all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura) than nether would they believe if Christ rose from the dead (the gospel)

The meaning is not ….how to ask for water when one is thirsty for hearing the gospel .
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
4,136
916
113
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.

Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?

Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire.
Human reasoning is how they make it other then what it says. "How can anything burn day and night " it's playing with fire . And pride has prevented them from seeing the words of Jesus . With many who live a life style of sin they need this so they can continue in thier sin. The devil at work YOU shall not surely die , there is no eternal hell torment a loving God wopuld not do that".
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
4,136
916
113
Try to think about how the last things He throws into the lake of fire are hell and its contents, and death - and how death is destroyed in that fire but hell and its contents aren't?

Biblically, the only ones that are strictly and specifically said to be in torment day and night forever and ever is the unholy trinity. Unbelievers are said to have their part in the lake of fire, but it says something different than the torment forever of the unholy trinity. It says instead, this is the second death.
I will leave this here for you . I think he explained very well


"
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.

Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?

Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire. "
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,703
3,836
113
I will leave this here for you . I think he explained very well


"
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.

Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?

Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire. "
Hey brother, thank you for reposting this but you should read post 479. She DID say she was going to revise her thinking on this issue. She engaged in debate, and was willing to listen to a side she wasn't originally on. She exemplifies what a mature Christian looks like. I need to remember that from time to time.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
4,136
916
113
Hey brother, thank you for reposting this but you should read post 479. She DID say she was going to revise her thinking on this issue. She engaged in debate, and was willing to listen to a side she wasn't originally on. She exemplifies what a mature Christian looks like. I need to remember that from time to time.
roger that
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
162
63
And God will give immortality to His children. How come you forgot that?

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10).

Since God is already immortal, for whom is this "life and immortality through the Gospel" other than for His saints?

SO YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR SAYING MY POST WAS HERETICAL.
I have not forgotten this, but I do understand that as a human we do not have immortality. Those who are saved at the resurrection are given immortality at that time. Pleaseread the following passage carefully...


1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

When?

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The time frame is the return of Christ and the DEAD are raised incorruptible. Notice they are dead and are resurrected to life. Here is an inset to show how we are resurrected...



1Co 15:35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

So let's read on...

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

What is the word used here for mortal? From Strong's...

G2349
θνητός
From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).

Mortals, those who can die must put on immortality. What is immortality?

G110
ἀθανασία
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.

This occurs at the resurrection. Notice the next couple of verses. They are in the future tense...

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

1Co 15:55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING? O HADES, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?"

When does this occur?


1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What did Christ himself say about the resurrection?


Joh 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As far as an apology, if I were wrong about the dead and the resurrection to life I would gladly apologize but I will never apologize for the truths revealed in the scripture.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
162
63
As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.



"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.

"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.

In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.

It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
I have beaten this one into submission on several occasions so I will do an abbreviated version here. If this is not a parable and an allegory, then please not that those in heaven can see those burning in hell. So, if this is really doctrine and not a parable, then saved mothers in heaven can see there lost children in hell writhing and shrieking in agony and cannot do a thing to help them and she will do this for all eternity. If this is your idea of the joy of salvation of a loving God, then we see God much differently.

Here is the best explanation of this parable I have found...

https://www.godfire.net/Lazarus_And_The_Rich_Man-Martin.htm

Enjoy!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,661
1,081
113
I have beaten this one into submission on several occasions so I will do an abbreviated version here. If this is not a parable and an allegory, then please not that those in heaven can see those burning in hell. So, if this is really doctrine and not a parable, then saved mothers in heaven can see there lost children in hell writhing and shrieking in agony and cannot do a thing to help them and she will do this for all eternity. If this is your idea of the joy of salvation of a loving God, then we see God much differently.

Here is the best explanation of this parable I have found...

https://www.godfire.net/Lazarus_And_The_Rich_Man-Martin.htm

Enjoy!
Greetings John832,

Why would think that mothers in heaven, or anyone in heaven can see anyone in Hades? I'm assuming that the reason that you believe this is because you think that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven while speaking to the rich man, which was not the cast. Scripture clearly shows Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man as being in Sheol/Hades. There were two areas that were separated by great chasm. One side was a place of comfort/paradise, which is where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were. And on the other side a place of torment in flame, which is where the rich man was and still is. So, there are no mothers watching their children in Sheol/Hades in torment.

If I may, I would suggest doing your own studies instead of relying on some else's.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
I have beaten this one into submission on several occasions so I will do an abbreviated version here. If this is not a parable and an allegory, then please not that those in heaven can see those burning in hell. So, if this is really doctrine and not a parable, then saved mothers in heaven can see there lost children in hell writhing and shrieking in agony and cannot do a thing to help them and she will do this for all eternity. If this is your idea of the joy of salvation of a loving God, then we see God much differently.

Here is the best explanation of this parable I have found...

https://www.godfire.net/Lazarus_And_The_Rich_Man-Martin.htm

Enjoy!
j...,
Enjoining the several references to the beauty and freedom from pain in Heaven clearly suggest G-d will provide us with nothing but pleasantness.

Much more powerful than the negative reference you list.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
411
83
Off the top of my head...I only recall the OT saying they went to sheol/the grave and slept. I've never noted that they went anywhere else in my reading. But I will help you look. :)
OK. :)
Been awhile since I thought of this thread and I just noticed it first page in this forum.
If Annhilationism has cultic origins then what of the scripture in Matthew 10:28?

γέεννα (geenna)
Strong: G1067
GK: G1147
Gehenna, pr. the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, once celebrated for the horrid worship of Moloch, and afterwards polluted with every species of filth, as well as the carcasses of animals, and dead bodies of malefactors; to consume which, in order to avert the pestilence which such a mass of corruption would occasion, constant fires were kept burning; hence, hell, the fires of Tartarus, the place of punishment in Hades, Mt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9, et al.

Hades is the god of the underworld and of Greek origin. Tartarus, fire, brimstone underworld, is also his realm. That's cultic. Why would God alter the grave, or the abyss meaning and place or purpose, as in the Tanakh's reference to gehenom, and make it fire and brimstone for the new testament? And being Jesus was the Father that inspired the Tanakh, for the purpose of my remarks I refer to just that, change the place he created as gehenom when he was here teaching as Jesus?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
162
63
j...,
Enjoining the several references to the beauty and freedom from pain in Heaven clearly suggest G-d will provide us with nothing but pleasantness.

Much more powerful than the negative reference you list.
Problem here is that the example used shows misery and suffering.

Here is a technical point that drives a nail in the coffin of this being anything but a parable. NO ONE EVER GOES TO HEAVEN!

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Joh 13:33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

Act 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

So not to worry, it is a parable and no one spends eternity sitting in heaven watching there children writhe and shriek in pain for eternity. The lost are burned to ashes and exist no more...

Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.

Because...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is death not life in misery, pain and suffering. The wicked are burned up.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,283
162
63
Greetings John832,

Why would think that mothers in heaven, or anyone in heaven can see anyone in Hades? I'm assuming that the reason that you believe this is because you think that Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven while speaking to the rich man, which was not the cast. Scripture clearly shows Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man as being in Sheol/Hades. There were two areas that were separated by great chasm. One side was a place of comfort/paradise, which is where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were. And on the other side a place of torment in flame, which is where the rich man was and still is. So, there are no mothers watching their children in Sheol/Hades in torment.

If I may, I would suggest doing your own studies instead of relying on some else's.
I don't believe this and apparently you hve not read very many of my posts. This is simply a parable, it is not reality. Why did Christ speak in parables?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

He spoke in parables to hide the truth from those not being called at this time.

There is no hell as portrayed by Dante Alighieri in the Divine Comedy but unfortunately that is where the belief comes from for most.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
724
122
43
Christians of all persuasions have generally believed the Bible doctrine of eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).

However it is the cults who have originated and promoted the heresy of Annihilationism. Thus the heterodox groups who believe this false doctrine are the Millerites, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Armstrongites, “Bible Students” (ironic), Church of God (7th Day) Salem Conference, etc. There are also so-called evangelicals (heretical) such as Clark Pinnock, John Stott, Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, etc. who promote this doctrine. And recently, even the Church of England has gone along with this.

According to Theopedia Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

As we know “annihilate” means to utterly destroy, to obliterate, to extinguish completely, to cause to cease to exist, to do away with entirely, so that nothing remains. If this were really true for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked, they would be more than happy to continue in their sins and evil deeds, since at the end of everything they would simply be vaporized. They would vanish into thin air.

However, there is no such nonsense taught in the Bible. Therefore the meaning of death and the second death had to be changed, and the meaning of “perish”, “destroy”, and “destruction” as shown in Scripture had to also be changed. But once we understand what those words mean -- as presented by Christ and the apostles -- we will see that Annihilationism is totally false. Here is what the Bible reveals:

1. Souls and spirits are imperishable, and will either have eternal life with God and Christ, or will be eternally separated from God in Hell.

2. There are two deaths in the Bible – the first death is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body, and the second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

3. There are also two resurrections in the Bible – the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation.

4. There is no such thing as Soul Sleep. Those who are unsaved go to Hades and are in torment. Those who are saved go directly to Christ and are in joy and bliss.

5. There is no “second chance after death”. Therefore God now commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

6. Those who are in Hades will eventually be resurrected before the Great White Throne Judgment. They will be judged according to their works, but their names will not be found in the Book of Life. Therefore they will be cast into the Lake of Fire to suffer eternal torment.

7. The Devil, the Beast (the Antichrist), and the False Prophet will all be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with the evil angels) and will be tormented day and night for ever (eternally).

8. The words “perish” and “destroy” do not mean annihilation, but do mean eternal ruin, eternal loss of well-being, and eternal indescribable torment.

9. Because Hell is real, Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for our justification according to the Scripture. John 3:16 makes the connection very plain: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, [suffer eternally in Hell] but have everlasting life.

10. God does not desire that a single soul go to Hell. That is why Christ commanded the Church to preach the Gospel to every creature, so that all men would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I watched a Seventh Day Adventist Pastor named Doug Batchelor on TV preaching on annihilationism. He done a lot of homework, so he sounded convincing. He tried to prove the word perish means cease to exist, he also claimed that second death refers to ceasing to exist. He said that God wouldn't be so cruel as to punish a person eternally for the sins committed during this short life.

It all sounded reasonable, but he never mentioned any of the other scriptures where Jesus described hell as being eternal. I hear many people quoting scripture to support their world view, but rarely does anyone one present the whole counsel of God. I like it when a person presents all the relevant scriptures to preach a sermon on a topic.

The Catholic Church teaches that we go to purgatory to be cleansed before we enter heaven. There are so many world views, and they all use scripture to support theirs but never all the relevant scripture, only the convenient ones.

It's good to see you upholding this hard to accept truth about hell, nobody likes it. It's very rare to hear anyone preach on this topic, most just want it to go away. They wish it wasn't in the Bible, so they avoid it like the plague.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,638
327
83
I will leave this here for you . I think he explained very well


"
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14


9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.

Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?

Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire. "

Not to make this a Revelation study, but if we take all of chapters 13 and 14 in context we find that the torment and lack of rest (shalom = peace) for those who worship (present tense) the beast and his image are during the time of Yah's judgment on the earth, not afterwards during the final judgment of the second death (when folks are cast in to the lake of fire).

Chapter 13 begins with the beast rising from the sea receiving satan's authority, and then the peoples of the earth marvel at and worship the beast. The chapter then explains how the beast will persecute the saints of the Almighty, killing them and leading them into captivity.

"Those who lead into captivity will (themselves) go into captivity. Those who kill by the sword will die by the sword."

^ This is a promise of recompense from Yah for hurting his people.


Chapter 13 finishes with there rising yet another beast who will perform false miracles and cause the world to worship after the first beast, and require everyone to have the mark just to make commerce, all of which the saints have to suffer through because it says...

"Here is the patience of the saints..." (Rev. 13:10)

Chapter 14 then opens with Christ returning (as the lamb) on Mount Sion (which is on earth) along with his 144,000 who have been redeemed and who achieved victory over the beast. And when they appear, the passage says judgment has come. Then the three angel messages go out to the ends of the earth saying,

1) "give glory to Yah for judgment has come",

2) "babylon has fallen"

3) "if anyone worship (present tense) the beast and his image, the same will be tormented fire and brimstone (smoke ascending up to heaven FROM EARTH) and have no rest day and night."

The last angel's message concludes with another "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."


Revelation 14:13 - And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Patience of the saints, even in dying, during the same time the beasts are judged. Notice that this is all prior to the grapes of wrath and the war of Armageddon. The beast and false prophet haven't been cast into the lake of fire yet.

----

So the 3rd angel's message in Revelation 14 passage is explaining The Almighty's judgment that will fall ON ALL THE EARTH and all its living inhabitants for worshiping the beast, not when folks are cast into the lake of fire. As long as they continue to worship the beast and his image they will continue to suffer, day and night. They will have no rest. Yah is giving the inhabitants a chance to repent during this punishment, but it's when those disobedient inhabitants kill Yah's witnesses that all bets are off.

For confirmation, notice how Revelation chapters 6-11 parallel Revelation chapters 13-14:

1) The saints are persecuted by beast kingdom (Rev. 6; Rev. 13)

2) The 144,000 are redeemed/sealed; protected for Yah's judgment (Rev. 7; Rev. 14:1)

3) Yah's judgment falls on all the earth (Rev. 8-10: Rev. 14:6-12)

4) People who don't repent suffer without rest (torment; fire, brimstone, smoke); even longing to die but can't (Rev. 9; Rev. 14:9).

5) Witnesses of Yah are killed by beast kingdom (Rev. 11; Rev. 14:13)

6) First resurrection // Harvest of souls & Wrath of Almighty (Rev. 11:11-19: Rev. 14:14-20)

----

So just like Daniel with his visions, John was given multiple visions showing different details of the same series of events over and over. The torment of Revelation 14:9 doesn't apply to the lake of fire.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,546
3,204
113
So just like Daniel with his visions, John was given multiple visions showing different details of the same series of events over and over.
This idea is not supported by the book of Revelation, although many promote it because someone else came up with it. Revelation is progressive from start to finish (barring a few exceptions).
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,638
327
83
This idea is not supported by the book of Revelation, although many promote it because someone else came up with it. Revelation is progressive from start to finish (barring a few exceptions).
Incorrect. Yah doesn't change his delivery method when giving visions and prophecy. The testimony of two or more establishes truth. The scriptures build upon the foundation it alone establishes.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
1,638
327
83
When considering the question of annihilation one has to define what a "soul" is and then address the condition a "soul" before accepting Christ compared to the condition a "soul" after accepting Christ. It also forces us to address what belief in Christ actually does for us (i.e. what is the gospel).

Christ says, "Salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22) and Paul says, "the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of Yah" (Romans 3:2). In other words, they were given the foundational understanding of these concepts even though blindness in part has happened to them with regard to the truth of Christ.

...But even if we choose not to trust in what they would say on the matter, we simply need to return to the foundational writings and read what it says ourselves.


What is a soul?

A soul = A person

A soul is not life a person carries within their body.

A person does not possess a soul. A person IS a soul.


Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

A body alone isn't a soul. It's dust.


Genesis 2:7
...and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life...

Yah's breath alone isn't a soul. It's spirit.


Genesis 2:7
...and man became a living soul.

A soul is made when Yah's breath animates an earthen body.

Formula: Breath + Body = Living Soul

Take either part away and a soul "is not" (i.e. does not // can not exist).


Is a Soul a Spirit?

No.

A Soul =/= A Spirit

A soul is a little lower than a spirit.


Psalm 8:5 (Heb. 2:7)
You made [man] a little lower than the angels and crowned him with glory and honor.

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire

Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

1 Corinthians 15:45
1st Adam is a living Soul.
Last Adam is lifegiving Spirit.


What did Christ offer in exchange for belief in him?

For a soul not to perish, but to have everlasting life.

John 3:16 [brackets mine for context]
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [soul/person] believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting = imperishable
..conditional upon belief in Christ


Can a soul that DOES NOT believe in Christ be imperishable?

Absolutely not.

If such were true it would destroy the heart of the gospel (i.e. John 3:16), because belief in Christ would not be necessary anymore if a soul was already imperishable (i.e. everlasting) without Christ. The Catholic doctrine of "imperishable/immortal soul" destroys the true gospel of Christ.

Mankind from the 1st Adam is a living soul. So mankind must be born again - OF THE SPIRIT - to see the kingdom of heaven; transformed to become spirit, which can not happen unless one is in Christ.


John 3:6
That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of Spirit is spirit.

----

No soul can be eternal; imperishable; become spirit on its own without belief in Christ. No soul has everlasting life within itself. So what is the only logical conclusion for those souls who DO NOT believe in Christ at the final judgment at end of days?


Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: