The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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Nov 12, 2015
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But my question still stands: In Revelation 21:4 - after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How can saved believers possibly enjoy the riches of eternity if they could hear burning people shouting up at them for water?
He has said he doesn't believe they WILL hear it, and that even the thought of them will not come to mind or be remembered.
Maybe you missed one of his posts.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Are there not legitimate figures of speech used in language/literature? Why would it be so different for God when having holy men pen the word of God to not use figures of speech? There are over 200 figures of speech throughout the written word and when a figure is not discerned when used - -
As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.

we do not have truth, e.g. the rich man and Lazarus,
either when one is dead they are dead (OT) or when one is dead he is not really dead - the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.

"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.

In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.

It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
 
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As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.



"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.

"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.

In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.

It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
Well, once again, that the parable or story shows a consciousness in death while the OT shows sleep can be dealt with reasonably in this manner: Jesus' death changed that somehow. Many verses seem to confirm this as true.

But this does not prove that, after the second death, it will remain so.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Well, once again, that the parable or story shows a consciousness in death while the OT shows sleep can be dealt with reasonably in this manner: Jesus' death changed that somehow. Many verses seem to confirm this as true.

But this does not prove that, after the second death, it will remain so.
Well, with supporting words in the different contexts such as everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, torment and punishment, they all infer on-going conscious existence.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.



"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"

The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.

"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.

"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ 

The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.

In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.

It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
that is the issue Ahwatukee ,

they do not take all of the word of Jesus in context to what HE said about hell. " it's Parable " and? LOL to know what Jesus said about a topic you have to see everything HE said. this https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/251-will-wicked-people-be-annihilated-in-hell
is pretty good :)
 
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Well, with supporting words in the different contexts such as everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, torment and punishment, they all infer on-going conscious existence.

Well, once again, to be dead eternally, is a final and eternal state.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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I disagree. I think to think eternal death means eternally dead is biblical and to think eternal death means eternal living is unbiblical.
try thinking about an internal Gos who can make things for ever as HE did Hell and those who go there as His word says
 
Feb 21, 2012
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What!? Those are some, umm, let's just say interesting interpretations you got there. I understand the need to do it, but talk about stretching!

Here is the Lord stating EXACTLY what former things are going to be remembered so far. It is clear He is talking about the Lost:

13 Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, My servants shall eat,
But you shall be hungry;
Behold, My servants shall drink,
But you shall be thirsty;
Behold, My servants shall rejoice,
But you shall be ashamed;
14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart,
But you shall cry for sorrow of heart,
And wail for [e]grief of spirit.
15 You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen;
For the Lord God will slay you,
And call His servants by another name;
16 So that he who blesses himself in the earth
Shall bless himself in the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Shall swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My eyes.
The Glorious New Creation
17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or [f]come to mind.

Also, how you can render that it is the lost's who remember no more in Ecclesiastes is just beyond me.

The word means a REMEMBRANCE of THEM.
I agree that there is a comparison between the lost and the saved BUT God specifically says: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind . . . the former what? because the former troubles are forgotten.
You say it is the lost that are forgotten - yet you say that the rich man and Lazarus is an example of consciousness in death - how can the lost be forgotten if we see their torment and hear them crying for water?


I do not render that it is "the lost who remember no more" in Ecclesiastes - you did. Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . The living know they shall die - we all know one day we will die unless the Lord returns first but the DEAD know not any thing, the DEAD have no more reward, the DEAD's memory is forgotten. Don't you know any one who has died? Have you forgotten them? The living know, the living remember, the living have a reward for what they are doing . . . I have a job, my reward is my pay check . . I mow the yard, my reward is having a nice yard . . .

6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun . . . the DEAD - [Those living still love, still hate (at times) and still have envy (at times)].

7-10) So the living should: Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God now accepts your works. Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity which he has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity: for that is your portion in this life, and in your labor which you take under the sun. Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, no device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go - the DEAD.
 
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try thinking about an internal Gos who can make things for ever as HE did Hell and those who go there as His word says
Try to think about how the last things He throws into the lake of fire are hell and its contents, and death - and how death is destroyed in that fire but hell and its contents aren't?

Biblically, the only ones that are strictly and specifically said to be in torment day and night forever and ever is the unholy trinity. Unbelievers are said to have their part in the lake of fire, but it says something different than the torment forever of the unholy trinity. It says instead, this is the second death.
 
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New International Version
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

New Living Translation
"Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore.

English Standard Version
“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

Berean Study Bible
For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

New American Standard Bible
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

King James Bible
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

You don't think that when God says the former troubles are forgotten and hid from my eyes - that the me there is God...?
What is it that God is forgetting? What is hid from his eyes? . . . That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; WHY- because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they - THEY refers to what previous noun? - hid from my eyes.

New sentence: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former (the former what?) heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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Are you being serious?? :LOL:
He talked about how we could not be happy knowing our loved ones on earth are in eternal torment every day and he gave a verse that makes him think the memory of them wont even come into our minds.

Because he did not use the exact words: ""hearing those crying from hell," you will say he hasn't addressed this matter as to what he thinks regarding it?? :p

Good grief! :LOL:
I mean, I don't agree with him on the point but gosh sakes, he did address what he thinks about it!
Geez . . . I said I was sorry . . . I just didn't see it . . . o_O
 
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What is it that God is forgetting? What is hid from his eyes? . . . That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; WHY- because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they - THEY refers to what previous noun? - hid from my eyes.

New sentence: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former (the former what?) heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Geez . . . I said I was sorry . . . I just didn't see it . . . o_O
Okay, okay. I'm sorry too. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Only God has immortality.
And God will give immortality to His children. How come you forgot that?

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10).

Since God is already immortal, for whom is this "life and immortality through the Gospel" other than for His saints?

SO YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR SAYING MY POST WAS HERETICAL.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Try to think about how the last things He throws into the lake of fire are hell and its contents, and death - and how death is destroyed in that fire but hell and its contents aren't?

Biblically, the only ones that are strictly and specifically said to be in torment day and night forever and ever is the unholy trinity. Unbelievers are said to have their part in the lake of fire, but it says something different than the torment forever of the unholy trinity. It says instead, this is the second death.
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.

Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?

Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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PennEd, I wish you were my neighbor so I could come over and talk on your porch. I would be there every night and you and your wife would be saying, turn out the lights, quick, act like we aren't here. I think Shrume would be there every night too...:) The neighbors would be like, look at those fools out there again working on that darn puzzle.
You are too kind! Too many bugs on my front porch, but we have a patio, and sometimes use a firepit. So you'd be welcome! It's funny, I have a running debate with a lady in our group about treasures, or rewards in Heaven, but we still love and respect each other. I'm sure the same goes for you.
 
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9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Wow...I have not noted that verse penned! I absolutely have to revise my thinking. Those who receive the mark will also receive the full strength of Gods' wrath/eternal torment. You are right - there will be some humans other than the two of the unholy trinity. Thanks!!