the deity of Jesus

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#61
Well if you accepted the Apostle Paul's words. He said there are a great many Gods and Lords in Heaven and on earth.
The passage says: “For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ” (1 Corinthians 8:5)

The question is, are these actual gods? If so, the Paul taught polytheism and contradicted earlier Scripture. If not, then Paul is merely pointing out that people think there are many gods, they are "so-called gods."

Paul used this same expression at another point: “Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. ” (2 Thessalonians 2:3–4)

So are these "so-called gods" actual gods? If so, then doesn't the man of lawlessness become a god by exalting himself above them (how else could you exalt yourself an actual god unless you become "greater" than these gods?).

It should be obvious by the qualification "so-called" that these are only gods in the sense that people call them gods. Not that they are actual gods (or else how can there be only one God?).

It's not a matter of accepting what Paul says. It's a matter of understanding what Paul says.

The Bible is Spirit breathed. The Spirit would not contradict Himself.
I think I've demonstrated that your assertions lead to contradictions. Therefore, what you're saying must not be from the Spirit, by your own standard.
 
A

angelos

Guest
#62
But in thesse last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. Heb1:2

I'm sorry, but you can't start from a position of dismissing the plain words of Christ, His Father and the Apostle Paul. You can then have no consistency at all, based on a Bible that you believe is a book of truth.

The Father created all things through the Son
The Father also said that the son laid the foundations of the Earth in hebrews 1:10
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#63
The Father also said that the son laid the foundations of the Earth in hebrews 1:10
Yes, completely consistant with Heb1:2

The Father created everything through the Son. But why quote these verses? You don't believe the plain woirds of Christ?
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#64
But what about you? He asked. 'Who do you say I am?'

Simon Peter answered. You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

Jesus replied. 'Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. Matt16:15-17

Was Christ wrong there too?
 
A

angelos

Guest
#65
I believe the plain words of Christ when he said I AM in john 8:58 I AM = YHWH
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#66
But in thesse last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe. Heb1:2

I'm sorry, but you can't start from a position of dismissing the plain words of Christ, His Father and the Apostle Paul. You can then have no consistency at all, based on a Bible that you believe is a book of truth.

The Father created all things through the Son
I agree that this doesn't necessitate the deity of the Son. But then again, the Trinity is the best explanation for harmonizing these passages. For if the world was actually made by the Son, who is not himself God, then God should have said "Where were you when I had Jesus lay the foundations of the world?" in order to be more precise. ... but like I said, this isn't necessary.

However, you haven't explained the YHWH passage I quoted earlier. When you are able to harmonize that passage with your (apparent) polytheism I'd like to see you address these too:

Compare this:

Psa 102:12-27 But thou, O Jehovah, wilt abide for ever; And thy memorial name unto all generations. 13Thou wilt arise, and have mercy upon Zion; For it is time to have pity upon her, Yea, the set time is come. 14For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, And have pity upon her dust. 15So the nations shall fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16For Jehovah hath built up Zion; He hath appeared in his glory. 17He hath regarded the prayer of the destitute, And hath not despised their prayer. 18This shall be written for the generation to come; And a people which shall be created shall praise Jehovah. 19For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; From heaven did Jehovah behold the earth; 20To hear the sighing of the prisoner; To loose those that are appointed to death; 21That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve Jehovah. 23He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: Thy years are throughout all generations. 25Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27But thou art the same, And thy years shall have no end.

With this:

Hebrews 1:11-12 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

Compare this:

Psa. 34:8
Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good: Blessed is the man that taketh refuge in him.

With this:

1 Peter 2:3
if ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious:

Compare this:

Isaiah 8:13-15
Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many shall stumble thereon, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

With this:

1 Peter 2:7-8
For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Compare this:

Isaiah 8:13
Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

With this:

1 Peter 3:14-15
But even if ye should suffer for righteousness’ sake, blessed are ye: and fear not their fear, neither be troubled; but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

And to quote Robert Reymond again: "As for the significance of Luke’s usage [of the title Lord], after noting that “what was in the OT [LXX] the name of God has been applied to Jesus,” and that ὁ κύριος (ho kyrios, “the Lord”) “is used of both God and Jesus quite indiscriminately [in Acts], so that it is often hard to determine which Person is meant,” Marshall declares that in his Gospel Luke employs it particularly to introduce authoritative statements by Jesus and concludes that “Jesus … is for Luke the Lord [in the Yahwistic sense] during his earthly ministry” (295).
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#67
But what about you? He asked. 'Who do you say I am?'

Simon Peter answered. You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

Jesus replied. 'Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. Matt16:15-17

Was Christ wrong there too?
What makes you think that this contradicts Trinitarianism?

And if it does "contradict" Trinitarianism, maybe that's because you are relying on man's wisdom rather than God's plainly revealed truth?
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#68
I agree that this doesn't necessitate the deity of the Son. But then again, the Trinity is the best explanation for harmonizing these passages. For if the world was actually made by the Son, who is not himself God, then God should have said "Where were you when I had Jesus lay the foundations of the world?" in order to be more precise. ... but like I said, this isn't necessary.

However, you haven't explained the YHWH passage I quoted earlier. When you are able to harmonize that passage with your (apparent) polytheism I'd like to see you address these too:

Compare this:

Psa 102:12-27 But thou, O Jehovah, wilt abide for ever; And thy memorial name unto all generations. 13Thou wilt arise, and have mercy upon Zion; For it is time to have pity upon her, Yea, the set time is come. 14For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, And have pity upon her dust. 15So the nations shall fear the name of Jehovah, And all the kings of the earth thy glory. 16For Jehovah hath built up Zion; He hath appeared in his glory. 17He hath regarded the prayer of the destitute, And hath not despised their prayer. 18This shall be written for the generation to come; And a people which shall be created shall praise Jehovah. 19For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; From heaven did Jehovah behold the earth; 20To hear the sighing of the prisoner; To loose those that are appointed to death; 21That men may declare the name of Jehovah in Zion, And his praise in Jerusalem; 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve Jehovah. 23He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: Thy years are throughout all generations. 25Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27But thou art the same, And thy years shall have no end.

With this:

Hebrews 1:11-12 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

Compare this:

Psa. 34:8
Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good: Blessed is the man that taketh refuge in him.

With this:

1 Peter 2:3
if ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious:

Compare this:

Isaiah 8:13-15
Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many shall stumble thereon, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

With this:

1 Peter 2:7-8
For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Compare this:

Isaiah 8:13
Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

With this:

1 Peter 3:14-15
But even if ye should suffer for righteousness’ sake, blessed are ye: and fear not their fear, neither be troubled; but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:

And to quote Robert Reymond again: "As for the significance of Luke’s usage [of the title Lord], after noting that “what was in the OT [LXX] the name of God has been applied to Jesus,” and that ὁ κύριος (ho kyrios, “the Lord”) “is used of both God and Jesus quite indiscriminately [in Acts], so that it is often hard to determine which Person is meant,” Marshall declares that in his Gospel Luke employs it particularly to introduce authoritative statements by Jesus and concludes that “Jesus … is for Luke the Lord [in the Yahwistic sense] during his earthly ministry” (295).
As to your OT references; I am quite sure the Apostle Paul understood the OT better than you or I. And he was cartergoric; fo0r us there is but one God, the Father. You can use human reasoning to explain 1Cor 15:24-28, but it is quite clear.

None of your NT verses contradict what I believe.
As to Robert Reymond, I have never heard of him, but if he contradicts plainly written scripture I wouldn't want to. But please. As you do not accept the plain words of Father, Son and Apostle Paul as the truth, why quote me scripture? You obviously believe the Bible cannot in many cases be relied oin.

And I have not denied the Trinity, but I do not believe it is a tiotally equal Trinity. I believe the Father is greater than the Son, as Jesus stated by the way
 
A

angelos

Guest
#69
As to your OT references; I am quite sure the Apostle Paul understood the OT better than you or I. And he was cartergoric; fo0r us there is but one God, the Father. You can use human reasoning to explain 1Cor 15:24-28, but it is quite clear.

None of your NT verses contradict what I believe.
As to Robert Reymond, I have never heard of him, but if he contradicts plainly written scripture I wouldn't want to. But please. As you do not accept the plain words of Father, Son and Apostle Paul as the truth, why quote me scripture? You obviously believe the Bible cannot in many cases be relied oin.
now you've moved past discussion to attacking people
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#70
now you've moved past discussion to attacking people

In what way? Who am I attacking? I would take no notice of any so called authority who contradicted plainly written scripture. But I do get exasperated wheen people quote scripture, but at the same time refuse to accept much plainly written scripture. They either ignore it or go to great lengths to bend or changer it. Why should anyonee then accept the scripture they quote? Is that fair?
 
Last edited:
A

angelos

Guest
#71
In what way? I would take no notice of any so called authority who contradicted plainly written scripture
saying that he doesnt accept the "plain words" of scripture as you put it is an attack
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#72
As to your OT references; I am quite sure the Apostle Paul understood the OT better than you or I. And he was cartergoric; fo0r us there is but one God, the Father. You can use human reasoning to explain 1Cor 15:24-28, but it is quite clear.

None of your NT verses contradict what I believe.
As to Robert Reymond, I have never heard of him, but if he contradicts plainly written scripture I wouldn't want to. But please. As you do not accept the plain words of Father, Son and Apostle Paul as the truth, why quote me scripture? You obviously believe the Bible cannot in many cases be relied oin.

And I have not denied the Trinity, but I do not believe it is a tiotally equal Trinity. I believe the Father is greater than the Son, as Jesus stated by the way
I hope that you will consider this as a possibility: You believe you are resting on the plain teaching of Scripture. In fact, you are resting upon your misguided interpretation of Scripture. You believe that verses such as John 20:28 and the groups of OT and NT passages *cannot* mean what Trinitarians think they mean because you believe that you have a perfect understanding of 1 Corinthians 15.

What's the proof of such a thesis? Simply that you cannot harmonize your interpretation of passages like 1 Corinthians 15 with other clear and plain teachings of Scripture. Your understanding of these Scriptures is contradictory, as I think I've demonstrated, and by your own admission, God doesn't contradict himself.

(And I could just turn your argument around and use it against you: 1 Corinthians CANNOT mean what you think it means, because then it would contradict these clear YHWH passages I quoted.)

I already addressed 1 Corinthians 15. If you want to try and interact with what I've already said that would be good.
 
Last edited:
S

Shwagga

Guest
#73
Can I ask a general question here? Yes, Christ appeared to Moses at the burning bush, but that does not make him God the Father does it. Moses turned away from seeing God's face. The Father is unseen, so it was Jesus.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see how this can be an argumant for Jesus being God full stop. There is a difference between the Fasther and the Son
Can you please clarify your position, do you believe in the eternal Son?
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#74
saying that he doesnt accept the "plain words" of scripture as you put it is an attack
Well he doesn't, neither do you, that is obvious, how is that attacking someone?

The Father is greater than I John14:28

The Father is greater than all. John10:29

John17:3
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#75
Can you please clarify your position, do you believe in the eternal Son?
Yes I do. I believe in the Trinity, but not a completely equal Trinity. I believe Jesus words.

The Father is greater than I. John14:28
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#76
Yes I do. I believe in the Trinity, but not a completely equal Trinity. I believe Jesus words.

The Father is greater than I. John14:28
I don't understand what that means, do you believe Yeshua is God? Also, have you ever studied the "kenosis" of the Messiah ?
 
A

angelos

Guest
#77
Well he doesn't, neither do you, that is obvious, how is that attacking someone?

The Father is greater than I John14:28

The Father is greater than all. John10:29

John17:3
Tell me how I don't believe in scripture? be detailed and explicit and i believe those as scripture and has credo said Jesus is God but in the economic role he is submissive to the father making the father greater and yet he is still God
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#78
I don't understand what that means, do you believe Yeshua is God? Also, have you ever studied the "kenosis" of the Messiah ?
I can't go through all of this again. If you read my posts on this thread, you will see what I believe, and why I believe as I do
 
C

Credo_ut_Intelligam

Guest
#79
Well he doesn't, neither do you, that is obvious, how is that attacking someone?

The Father is greater than I John14:28

The Father is greater than all. John10:29

John17:3

Yes I do. I believe in the Trinity, but not a completely equal Trinity. I believe Jesus words.

The Father is greater than I. John14:28
A non-completely equal Trinity is not believing in the Trinity. That's like me saying "Oh, I'm a democrate. The kind that is for laissez-faire capitalism and the Austrian school of economics." Well, that's not a democrat. That's a confusion of terms.

I already explained how the Father can be greater than the Son, economically. I don't recall you interacting much with that.

(And at this point just repeating unfounded assertions, like we reject the plain teaching of Scripture or Hebrews 1:9, isn't going to get any where. But I'm always happy to repeat my rejoinders to people who repeat their assertions.)
 
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#80
Tell me how I don't believe in scripture? be detailed and explicit and i believe those as scripture and has credo said Jesus is God but in the economic role he is submissive to the father making the father greater and yet he is still God
OK

You say in the economic role Christ is now submissive to His Father. The Apostle Paul says in 1Cor15:28, that at a time in the future, aftyer all dominion, authority and power has been defeated Christ will then be subject to His Father. So if you are correct and he is subject now in one of his roles to his Father, according to scripture a time is coming in the future when he will become subject in the other role too. But you say this is impossible.

Then the Son Himself will become subject to him who put eveything under him so that God may be all in all. 1Cor15:28