The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

r1xlx · Mar 7, 2020

You're all wrong.
On dying all thoughts perish.
If the soul is us it would know us but as its thoughts are dead it coudln't.
Therefore on dying our bodies turn to dust and all our thoughts abd knwledge cease to exist.
Maybe you should try understand that when Jesus said every hair on our heads is numbered he was actually meaning GOD remembers every details of us - so He knows those predestined to live eternally?
You really need to use KJV Study Bibles s you can quickly put all the pieces together.

r1xlx · Mar 7, 2020

As for the other mansions - how about the fact GOD made all the planets the same way from the same minerals?
Theey all just need pushing into a more amenable orbit to become warm and moist and desirable.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2020

Jackson123 said:

Hello Jackson123!

That is not correct! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him does not take place after the man of lawlessness is revealed. Like so many, you're reading it incorrectly. Below is the scripture:

==========================================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
=========================================

* the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him

* The Day of the Lord

When reading the scripture above, the majority of people fail to recognize the difference between the two.

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (Jesus) is referring to when the dead and living in Christ will be caught up and taken to the Father's house, as He promised. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is a time of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. Once believers are gathered to the Lord, what follows will be the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

Therefore, Paul is saying "Let no one deceive you in any way, for the Day of the Lord i.e. the time of God's wrath, will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place first, which is then followed by the Day of the Lord.

It is important to recognize when Paul changes from the "our being gathered" to "The Day of the Lord." If you will do a study on all of the scriptures regarding the Day of the Lord, you will see that it has to do with God's wrath. That said, the Lord's appearing and our being gathered is a blessed event, while the Day of the Lord is a time of unprecedented wrath.

In conclusion, the event of our being gathered to the Lord initiates the Day of the Lord which follows our being gathered. Below is one example of the Day of the Lord:

=============================
The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.

“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold
will be able to save them
on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”
In the fire of his jealousy
the whole earth will be consumed,
for he will make a sudden end
of all who live on the earth.
=======================================

Once the Lord appears and we are gathered to Him, all the rest of the inhabitants on the earth who remain will be exposed to the Day of the Lord. It will be the worst time in the history of the world, so much so, that Jesus said that if those days were allowed to continue, no one on earth would be left alive. As believers in Christ, we are not appointed to suffer the Day of the Lord, which is God's coming wrath.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2020

r1xlx said:

If it was true that our thoughts cease to exist when our bodies die, then how do you explain the rich man and Lazarus dying but their spirits being conscious and aware in hades? What about the martyrs under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal who were having a conversation with the Lord? And what about Samuel coming up from Sheol to speak to king Saul and Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mountain where He was transfigured? And what about Jesus' promise to the thief who was crucified next to Him? The man said, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus make that promise to him when they both died that same day? The answer is, because after the death of their bodies, their spirits departed and went down to the place of comfort in Sheol/Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were.

Not only are the spirits of the righteous conscious and aware after the death of the body, but the spirits of the wicked are also conscious and aware after death. This is one of the truths found in the event of the rich man and Lazarus. The context states that both men died, but their spirits where found down in Sheol/Hades. The rich man was having a conversation with Abraham with Lazarus was at his side. Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were on the side of comfort, while the rich man and all the other who died without faith were on the other side of the chasm in torment in flame.And consider the following:

==============================================
"And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:"

"Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
==============================================

Regarding the first scripture, those spoken of "under the earth" is referring to the wicked in Hades. It would be pointless to mention those who are unworthy to open the scroll under the earth if they didn't exist.

Regarding the second scripture, it would be pretty difficult for those under the earth to sing if they no longer existed.

Likewise, it would be impossible for those under the earth to bow their knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord if they no longer existed.

The KJV is not the issue, it is the erroneous interpretations of the expositors. Instead of honestly considering the other scriptures that demonstrate the conscious existence of the spirit after death, they use existing apologetics or create new ones in order to circumvent the truth.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 7, 2020

r1xlx said:

Evidently you (a) either do not know what is in Scripture, (b) do not believe the Bible, or (c) prefer to manufacture your own theology.

LUKE 16: THE DEAD REMEMBER FULL WELL WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THIS LIFE
27 Then he [the Rich Man] said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Ahwatukee · Mar 7, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

For some reason they love to cling to Eccl.9:5 while ignoring or circumventing the rest of the scriptures which supports the conscious existence of the spirit after death. This is exactly why they interpret the rich man and Lazarus into being a parable, because it destroys their belief of nonexistence or soul-sleep.

Jackson123 · Mar 7, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Hello Jackson123!

That is not correct! The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him does not take place after the man of lawlessness is revealed. Like so many, you're reading it incorrectly. Below is the scripture:

==========================================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
=========================================

* the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him

* The Day of the Lord

When reading the scripture above, the majority of people fail to recognize the difference between the two.

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him (Jesus) is referring to when the dead and living in Christ will be caught up and taken to the Father's house, as He promised. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is a time of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. Once believers are gathered to the Lord, what follows will be the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

Therefore, Paul is saying "Let no one deceive you in any way, for the Day of the Lord i.e. the time of God's wrath, will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place first, which is then followed by the Day of the Lord.

It is important to recognize when Paul changes from the "our being gathered" to "The Day of the Lord." If you will do a study on all of the scriptures regarding the Day of the Lord, you will see that it has to do with God's wrath. That said, the Lord's appearing and our being gathered is a blessed event, while the Day of the Lord is a time of unprecedented wrath.

In conclusion, the event of our being gathered to the Lord initiates the Day of the Lord which follows our being gathered. Below is one example of the Day of the Lord:

=============================
The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.

“I will bring such distress on all people
that they will grope about like those who are blind,
because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust
and their entrails like dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold
will be able to save them
on the day of the Lord’s wrath.”
In the fire of his jealousy
the whole earth will be consumed,
for he will make a sudden end
of all who live on the earth.
=======================================

Once the Lord appears and we are gathered to Him, all the rest of the inhabitants on the earth who remain will be exposed to the Day of the Lord. It will be the worst time in the history of the world, so much so, that Jesus said that if those days were allowed to continue, no one on earth would be left alive. As believers in Christ, we are not appointed to suffer the Day of the Lord, which is God's coming wrath.

So you believe Jesus come, than tribulation.

So you believe the end time is not second coming, am I correct?

r1xlx · Mar 7, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Evidently you (a) either do not know what is in Scripture, (b) do not believe the Bible, or (c) prefer to manufacture your own theology.

LUKE 16: THE DEAD REMEMBER FULL WELL WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THIS LIFE
27 Then he [the Rich Man] said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! Luke 16 is a parable! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lucy-Pevensie · Mar 7, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Evidently you (a) either do not know what is in Scripture, (b) do not believe the Bible, or (c) prefer to manufacture your own theology.

LUKE 16: THE DEAD REMEMBER FULL WELL WHAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THIS LIFE
27 Then he [the Rich Man] said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Or as revealed in his post #541 .
He uses the KJV to formulate his theories.

UnitedWithChrist · Mar 7, 2020

Absolutely said:

Well, I am not sure what you are saying.

God certainly is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

My question would be, why do we not see evidences of tongues being used in the OT?

It was a new event at Pentecost.

Actually, if one understands the typology, what happened was pointing back to a couple of different events in the OT.

One is the tower of Babel, where God confused man's language. Pentecost was, in fact, a reversal of this situation. The Church is a new humanity where mankind is reunited, but instead being united in rebellion against God, they are united in praising God. Men of every nation.

The other is Mount Sinai and Exodus 19-20. In Exodus 19-20, God gave his law to ancient Israel, but it was accompanied by a terrible display involving fear and gloom. The Law served a ministry of condemnation to the unconverted Israelites, because they were unable to keep it without being joined to Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. At Pentecost, God gave his Holy Spirit.

Both were accompanied by similar physical manifestations, but instead of the fire landing on the heads of the people, the tongues of fire lighted on the heads of the believers. This pointed to a sign that would tie the Jerusalem believers at Pentecost with the various different other groups mentioned throughout Acts which were later saved and spoke in languages just like the Jerusalem believers. Additionally, the believers often had hands laid upon them by the apostles, in order to convey this gift, to point them back to Jerusalem and its authority over them. God did not want an exclusivist Samaritan church, for example..he wanted them (and the apostles) to realize that they were all one body.

I can't make sense out of charismatic jabber concerning tongues, but I can make sense of these explanations. In fact, they are thoroughly biblical.

However, if you want to research the source of modern day "tongues", you will find them with this crazy young woman who started it all.

By the way, charismatics have changed their story over and over again..as soon as it is proven false. For instance, their story originally was that this was the "latter rain" and that God was giving tongues to preach the gospel in one final end-time revival. Well, since their tongues didn't match any known language, they changed their story and claimed it was a prayer language. So, they have changed their story over and over again as soon as it is proven false.

UnitedWithChrist · Mar 7, 2020

JohnR7 said:

The men who create these excellent materials have to feed their families, too.

By the way, ask the Apostle Paul about this. Read the Bible.

Read 1 Cor 9. It says that the workers, who preach the gospel, are entitled to receive gifts to support their work. If someone doesn't want to buy the product, then let them do without.

I also tire of individuals who claim pastors shouldn't receive salaries. They are a bunch of irresponsible dolts who apparently cannot read Scripture. They don't realize that the Levites were given a tenth to support themselves. And, the Gospel allows ministers of the gospel to the same entitlement.

It is in fact shameful for a church not to pay their pastor. Perhaps they get the kind of "pastor" they deserve in many cases, although I am sure that some unpaid pastors are decent, especially retired ones.

JohnR7 · Mar 7, 2020

Absolutely said:

UnitedWithChrist said:

I feed my family, sometimes 30 or 40 at a time. To the best of my knowledge I have never taken a penny to serve God. Jesus was a carpenter and Paul was a tentmaker. I want my reward to be in Heaven, not here on earth. People can go to visit my mansion there and they will find new additions all the time. People know what we are doing here on the Earth when our rewards are showing up in Heaven. God provides for our needs, abundantly above and beyond all that we could ever ask or think. (Eph3:20) I attended a church where all the money from the books went toward the printing to give the books away on the mission field to those who could not afford them. I use to pay the printing charge for boxes full of material to give away to people.

JohnR7 · Mar 7, 2020

UnitedWithChrist said:

Oh I am sure they do a lot that of things that people pay them to do. Things that people should be doing for themselves but they would rather pay someone to do it for them. If they marry someone for example, or do counseling. That is a service they provide for free but really the church pays them so they can provide those services for people. I attended a church where the elders in the church provided the premarital counseling. Usually a husband and a wife that had been married for a long time and had been to classes themselves to learn how to council people. We have brothers and sister, mothers and father, sons and daughters in the church and we are to serve each other. But if people expect the pastor to do that for them then I do not see any problem with them paying him. Just like we have to pay for the building, maintenance, utilities and all of that.

UnitedWithChrist · Mar 7, 2020

JohnR7 said:

The question is, does Scripture require this type of generosity from all? What about those who can't afford to contribute in that manner?

What about Bibles? Do you think that no one should ever buy a Bible? And, that those individuals who worked on the translations don't deserve to be paid?

Should their families starve?

And, what quality do you get if all ministers of the gospel are unpaid?

Again, I encourage you to read 1 Corinthians 9. Paul himself plainly states gospel workers are entitled to receive support from those benefitting from their work.

If you have an issue with that, it is with the Bible and not with me.

UnitedWithChrist · Mar 7, 2020

JohnR7 said:

Members can serve one another AND the paid pastor can serve the members. He can equip them for their unpaid service.

But, it is not wrong for a Christian to create sound Christian materials and charge for them. In many cases, they wouldn't be able to afford to take time off their careers and create such materials, or the project is too big to complete on a part time basis.

Or, they may have debt from seminary.

By the way, a lot of times, cultists use this claim that Christians charge for their materials, but the cult does not. They will claim that the "gospel is free" and use this as an accusation toward Christians that they are not true teachers of the gospel.

The cultists are providing poison and dung in their materials. Cleverly devised to draw in the inexperienced and the gullible.

Armstrongites are one of those groups...United Church of God, Restored Church of God, Living Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God...and the phrase you mentioned is one of their primary catch phrases.

What they don't tell people is that they are planning for a certain number of people to become believers, and once they do, they are told that 23% of their gross income must be allocated to church use or giving. Since when did 23% become free?

UnitedWithChrist · Mar 7, 2020

r1xlx said:

I could see that the gift of speaking in different languages could be a great gift.

I hope that this gift is still available.

But not babbling incoherently. I have no use for that.

And neither do I believe that some are in an inferior position and cannot pray effectively to God while some charismatic can. In other words, I am fine with the left side. I am not fine with the right side.

Jackson123 · Mar 7, 2020

Seem to me people that believe Pretrib believe Jesus come and meet Christian oN the air before tribulation.

So after second coming > tribulation > thausand years kingdom

Jackson123 · Mar 7, 2020

Pretrib

Second coming > tribulation > third trcoming for 1000 kingdom

I never read If there is third coming in the bible

r1xlx · Mar 7, 2020

Jackson123 said:

Jackson, you really do lack understanding.
Tribulation, Jesus AND Rapture - millennium,

r1xlx · Mar 7, 2020

Jackson123 said:

you seem to have difficulty with reading the Bible in general.

The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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