The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

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Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Actually postrib rapture is easily hands down debunked.
Totally unscriptural
I have verses to defend my position.
Postribs ignore our verses and produce second coming verses that are out of context with the rapture.
Your position is easily refuted and poorly, poorly,thought out.
 

Absolutely

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2 Thessalonians 2:3
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

And I never see a verse that say pretrib
Jesus framed the rapture pretrib
"Before the flood..."
Lot
"One taken,one left"
The 10 virgins
"....because you have kept my word,I will keep you from the time of testing"
"But pray that you will be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world"

Pretrib rapture verses big time

Not even getting started as rev 14 is a nuclear bomb to the false postrib rapture.
And ask yourself why ,in your position,you guys miss the apex of the bride/groom dynamic?
The very purpose of the rapture escapes the postrib adherent.
How is that even possible????
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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This is what tells me you have no idea what is actually being discussed: "...It's a pre-tribber's sense of entitlement that scripture belongs only to a pre-trib theory. And it is only theory."

You and any others here who use the same colloquialisms, "pre-tribber's", "free willers", lose all credibility the moment you write those meaningless words.
If you're unable to comport yourself in a reasonable manner and with proper diction, and especially after you claim you prefer rational thinking in discussions concerning scripture, then don't expect to be taken as any more than a trouble maker.

The onus is on you and those who think there is no such thing in scripture as pretribulation rapture, but rather, post tribulation rapture.

Find the scripture in proper context that proves your argument for a post tribulation rapture. Your effort in offering 1 Thessalonians 4 failed.

Don't attack people using scurrilous dismissives thinking that proves your point. It does not. Rather, it shows you are not secure in your argument and you then seek to make the member you address focus on the perceived slight you intend them to take offense to in your postings.

That doesn't work with me. That kind of post tells me you need to grow up so that you are able to speak then years in the future as an adult. And about adult topics and showing the proper respect for scripture in the case of entering this Bible Discussion Forum.

Rational and Biblically sound.
Awesome, and sorry to jump in, but I'm so glad I found you because I have a problem with ANY of this happening in the future at all. My biggest conflict, and the very thing I want to ask you about, is this concept of a 3rd temple. First thing, do you believe that the AoD takes place in God's temple, and I believe the ONLY thing that can make a temple "God's temple", is the fact that the true Creator God dwells within that temple, not to mention that by logical necessity He would also have to command that temple built, as He did both times before. Do you believe what is spoken of in Dan & Rev takes place in Gods temple? I really need to know what you believe about the Abomination of Desolation and where God tells us these things will happens. Thank you for your civil rationality.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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HI!


Do you remember saying "Wrath of God only to the wicked not to Christian, like happen to agypt when they not let Israel go."

The LORD removes His Church which is not subject to His wrath, "Wrath of God only to the wicked not to Christian.."

God bless..
Do you remember I say what happen to Stephen, john the baptis etc?
God not stop this devil tribulation nor rapture Stephen or John the Baptist before people kill them.

Do you remember I explain that in great tribulation according rev 13 the devil wrath, not God wrath.

I wish God always rapture us when ever there is devil tribulation. But Paul say

Otherwise.
2 Thessalonians
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Your error is you think mark of the beast as wrath of God.

Let me remind you one more time.

God not rapture Israel when God wrath happen to agypt

God able to protect without rapture.

Paul not lie, he say rapture happen after man of sin or tribulation
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Jesus framed the rapture pretrib
"Before the flood..."
Lot
"One taken,one left"
The 10 virgins
"....because you have kept my word,I will keep you from the time of testing"
"But pray that you will be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world"

Pretrib rapture verses big time

Not even getting started as rev 14 is a nuclear bomb to the false postrib rapture.
And ask yourself why ,in your position,you guys miss the apex of the bride/groom dynamic?
The very purpose of the rapture escapes the postrib adherent.
How is that even possible????
Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

You repeat the same mistake 5 time brother

I told you to read matt 24:37


Noah escape from flood

What is flood represent? Not get

Flood represent second coming

One more time

Flood represent second coming not get.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Let me ask you question

Is verse 31 happen before verse 30?

what is verse 30 talking about
 

UnitedWithChrist

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John MacArthur admitted that the Rapture is not taught in the book of Revelation.

Where did he say it was taught? "in the white spaces". He admits it's not there whatsoever.....yet dispensationalists criticize amillennialists concerning their hermeneutical approach in this book :D

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1290/a-jet-tour-through-revelation


Here's another interesting sermon related to this topic:

 

Whispered

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Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
Awesome, and sorry to jump in, but I'm so glad I found you because I have a problem with ANY of this happening in the future at all. My biggest conflict, and the very thing I want to ask you about, is this concept of a 3rd temple. First thing, do you believe that the AoD takes place in God's temple, and I believe the ONLY thing that can make a temple "God's temple", is the fact that the true Creator God dwells within that temple, not to mention that by logical necessity He would also have to command that temple built, as He did both times before. Do you believe what is spoken of in Dan & Rev takes place in Gods temple? I really need to know what you believe about the Abomination of Desolation and where God tells us these things will happens. Thank you for your civil rationality.
As far as I know the answer to what precisely is meant by the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, as found in the Book of Matthew chapter 24 , has been debated for a very long time. I think the reason is there are parts of the passage that have been omitted for the purpose of hiding the full import of the prophecy. By whom I am not aware but it does seem that way.

Given what we have to go by in all those scriptures that refer to the Abomination of Desolation "standing" in the holy place, and given what I've said about ourselves being Gods temple, I'll go out on a limb since you asked. :D
I think the Abomination of Desolation will be a literal flag that will be set in the holy place in Jerusalem's major synagogue, and in all Christian churches that will be rendered closed and off limits due to a one world order type of power set or government that will rise up. In the place of a cross , as is in most churches, there will be that flag. Think of how American's today pledge allegiance to our flag of the United States of America.

That flag positioned in those holy temples in the Judeo-Christian sanctuaries around the globe will be there to depict the same identity. Allegiance!
That's why the churches and synagogues will be closed, the holy relics or statues, like a cross, will be removed and the flag will be "planted" in their stead. The new allegiance is to the order. The seen. Because the message of that planting will be that the unseen that those believers held in faith did not save them from that new beginning under that one world government rule. So the new worldly ruler having overtaken the temporal Lord will stand in "his" stead.

That then will meet the criteria, the definition in old Hebrew, of "Abomination", and the "Desolation" will be the holy consecrated "properties", ground, temples, will be made desolate by that abomination that sought to overtake the sacred space believers cherish.

That's my take. That is what comes to me when asked to consider your question. Thank you for asking me. Blessings.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
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Hi again!


G2372 θυμός thumos (thï-mos') n.
passion (as if breathing hard).
[from G2380]
KJV: fierceness, indignation, wrath
Root(s): G2380




G2347 θλίψις thlipsis (thliy'-psis) n.
pressure.
{literally or figuratively}
[from G2346]
KJV: afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble

Hope this helps....
Wrath means punishment and Tribulation means Affliction. Haven't got a clue where you got your number from. The word "Wrath" has more then one meaning in the bible. However the word "Wrath" when speaking of the Wrath of God is not the same number you have given does mean Pressure, to press and more but the word "Wrath" in the Greek for G2346 is spelled differently then the word "Wrath" as in the Wrath of God is spelled and does not apply to the word "Wrath" when speaking of the Wrath of God. According to my Strong's the number is G3709 for the word "Wrath" as in Wrath of God in Matt.3:7, Luke 3:7, Luke 21:23, Rom 1:18, Eph. 5:6, Rev 6:16 as in the Wrath of the Lamb, Rev. 14:10 and several other scriptures where the Wrath of God is spoken of.
Other numbers associated with the word Wrath in New Testament scripture are G2372, G3949, G3950. Your number for the word Wrath G2346 applies to scriptures like Mark 3:9, Matt. 7:14, 2 Thess. 1:6 and does not apply to the Wrath of God.
Thank you for your input though.
 

massorite

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Jan 3, 2015
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Lol
We Do have verses
You post trib DO NOT.
The words of Jesus SPECIFICALLY..IRREFUTABLY place the rapture pretrib

Plus rev 14 DESTROYS your deal.
If the dead ,as you say, rise after the gt then YOU place that resurrection AFTER the living gathered in rev 14.
So either 1 thes 4 is false,or rev 14 has Jesus as confused.

Pretrib rapture is easy to defend

We have verses
You have none
In fact you guys in desperation attempt sloppily to combine the 2 clearly separate events of the rapture and second coming.

IOW you guys are in a doctrinal position that the very words of Jesus are Directly against you.
How bizarre to position yourself in opposition to Christ Himself
Talk is cheap. Lets see the scriptures.
Rev, 14 tells us about the 144,000, A message from 3 angels and the harvest of the earth/Resurrection day. But there is not one single word in Rev 14 about any 7 years of Tribulation or 7 years of the wrath of God. There is nothing in Rev 14 about Resurrection taking place before a period of Tribulation or after a period of Tribulation. If anything Rev. 14 is telling us that the harvesting of the earth happens just before or even after the battle of Armageddon.

Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Blood raising to the level of a horses bridle is talking about the battle of Armageddon. If that were true, that would mean that the resurrection does not take place until after a period Tribulation and just before the battle of Armageddon. That is unless you believe that the battle of Armageddon happens before the Resurrection. LOL And we all know that the battle of Armageddon happens at the end of a period of seven years and the wrath of God is pored out on the earth.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Man REALLY you are mixed up, calling scripture something that it doesn't even speak of and in reality you have proven my point that "THERE WILL BE NO RESURRECTION UNTIL AFTER A PERIOD OF 3 1/2 YEAR OF GREAT TRIBULATION.
As I said, everybody know that the resurrection happens before the battle of Armageddon and the battle of Armageddon happens after the Wrath of God is pored out onto the earth.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Again as I have said. Talking without scripture is really cheap and doesn't prove anything, especially a Pre-Trib doctrinal belief
So put your scripture where your mouth is! In which scriptures are words of Jesus directly against me?
Where in the Word of God does't it tell us that there will be a Rapture before a Resurrection?? If you are beyond the shadow of a doubt correct it should be easy to quote some scripture proving I am wrong.
So far you have failed to do that. Not once have you provided scripture to prove you are right. But I on the other hand I have provided many scriptures to prove you are wrong and you haven't been able to prove that any of those scroptures I have quote are being minipulated to fit a Post Trib doctrine.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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One of the big issues with the dispensationalist view is that much of the content of Revelation is attack upon God's people (the Church) by Satan and his cohorts, both angelic and human. It is part of the war between children of the woman and children of the serpent.

It's really only the last ten trumpets, which occur after the resurrection (and changing) of God's people which could be properly called God's wrath.

In fact, God's wrath is actually a reaction to the evil events that are perpetrated by the servants of Satan over the course of millennia, but more focused at the end.

By the way, when asked about the Rapture and where it appears in the Bible, John MacArthur stated "in the white space". In other words, it doesn't appear AT ALL. It is inferred by dispensationalism, which proposes that the Church bails out seven months prior, rather than staying and being a faithful witness.

And, as mentioned, the origin of the teaching is likely the claims of a young woman.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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One of the big issues with the dispensationalist view is that much of the content of Revelation is attack upon God's people (the Church) by Satan and his cohorts, both angelic and human. It is part of the war between children of the woman and children of the serpent.

It's really only the last ten trumpets, which occur after the resurrection (and changing) of God's people which could be properly called God's wrath.

In fact, God's wrath is actually a reaction to the evil events that are perpetrated by the servants of Satan over the course of millennia, but more focused at the end.

By the way, when asked about the Rapture and where it appears in the Bible, John MacArthur stated "in the white space". In other words, it doesn't appear AT ALL. It is inferred by dispensationalism, which proposes that the Church bails out seven months prior, rather than staying and being a faithful witness.

And, as mentioned, the origin of the teaching is likely the claims of a young woman.
The church is absent from the book of Revelation after chapter 3. The book of Revelation is aimed at Israel not the church. The terrible tribulation is aimed at Israel and centered on Jerusalem not the church.

The church is not appointed unto wrath. Israel is going to be chastised by God one last time to prepare them to see and receive their Redeemer Christ coming in the clouds and entering Jerusalem to save them from complete destruction.

Understanding dispensational teaching is key to comprehending what God is doing and why.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Matt 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

You repeat the same mistake 5 time brother

I told you to read matt 24:37


Noah escape from flood

What is flood represent? Not get

Flood represent second coming

One more time

Flood represent second coming not get.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Let me ask you question

Is verse 31 happen before verse 30?

what is verse 30 talking about
Lol
You leave out "before the flood"

You invert it to after the flood.
(Which means you changed how Jesus framed noah and the setting)

Then we keep reading to see if that "pretrib dynamic" is authenticated...and Bingo....Jesus says this;
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Beyond any doubt,Jesus is describing the pretrib rapture.

Jesus in the same chapter confirming the pretrib rapture and VIVIDLY differentiating the rapture from the second coming WITH THOSE FROM THE PRETRIB RAPTURE.

Without a doubt the rapture is pretrib
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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John MacArthur admitted that the Rapture is not taught in the book of Revelation.

Where did he say it was taught? "in the white spaces". He admits it's not there whatsoever.....yet dispensationalists criticize amillennialists concerning their hermeneutical approach in this book :D

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1290/a-jet-tour-through-revelation


Here's another interesting sermon related to this topic:

John mcarthur?
Does his bible contain rev 14?
Tell him to read it.
Does it contain the "7 letters"
Tell him to read the part about the rapture and get back to us.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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""By the way, when asked about the Rapture and where it appears in the Bible, John MacArthur stated "in the white space". In other words, it doesn't appear AT ALL. It is inferred by dispensationalism, which proposes that the Church bails out seven months prior, rather than staying and being a faithful witness.""

Read my verses that I posted earlier.
Mcarthur is not a bible yardstick.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the best teachers.
But out of Jesus mouth we see the rapture many times.
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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One of the big issues with the dispensationalist view is that much of the content of Revelation is attack upon God's people (the Church) by Satan and his cohorts, both angelic and human. It is part of the war between children of the woman and children of the serpent.

It's really only the last ten trumpets, which occur after the resurrection (and changing) of God's people which could be properly called God's wrath.

In fact, God's wrath is actually a reaction to the evil events that are perpetrated by the servants of Satan over the course of millennia, but more focused at the end.

By the way, when asked about the Rapture and where it appears in the Bible, John MacArthur stated "in the white space". In other words, it doesn't appear AT ALL. It is inferred by dispensationalism, which proposes that the Church bails out seven months prior, rather than staying and being a faithful witness.

And, as mentioned, the origin of the teaching is likely the claims of a young woman.
You mean the one that said the church needed to go through the gt for purification?
Mrs McDonald?

Lol yeah you just made that up.
 

Absolutely

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See the desperation?

When you can not defend your position ..........

Here come the nothing burgers.

Psssst; how much of you guys doctrine lines up with Catholicism?
What did that spirit do to us pretribbers?
Burned em...and their writings.
 

Absolutely

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If it is in the future why watch? If it is in the past why watch? The only reason you are watching is because you see it present tense...
In mat 25,even the foolish watched and hoped for a future event.
 

Absolutely

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If you willing to explain, I Will be Happy to read it
I dont believe you read my verses.
You can not say we have none.
Copy and paste my verses.
I want to see you embrace another possibility.
I can easily present the postrib doctrine.
It is easy.
It all cliche oriented.
Mine is VERSES.
POST MY VERSES . If you can not form alternative and challenging powerpoints,opposing MY VERSES ,then your deal is disingenuous.
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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As far as I know the answer to what precisely is meant by the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, as found in the Book of Matthew chapter 24 , has been debated for a very long time. I think the reason is there are parts of the passage that have been omitted for the purpose of hiding the full import of the prophecy. By whom I am not aware but it does seem that way.

Given what we have to go by in all those scriptures that refer to the Abomination of Desolation "standing" in the holy place, and given what I've said about ourselves being Gods temple, I'll go out on a limb since you asked. :D
I think the Abomination of Desolation will be a literal flag that will be set in the holy place in Jerusalem's major synagogue, and in all Christian churches that will be rendered closed and off limits due to a one world order type of power set or government that will rise up. In the place of a cross , as is in most churches, there will be that flag. Think of how American's today pledge allegiance to our flag of the United States of America.

That flag positioned in those holy temples in the Judeo-Christian sanctuaries around the globe will be there to depict the same identity. Allegiance!
That's why the churches and synagogues will be closed, the holy relics or statues, like a cross, will be removed and the flag will be "planted" in their stead. The new allegiance is to the order. The seen. Because the message of that planting will be that the unseen that those believers held in faith did not save them from that new beginning under that one world government rule. So the new worldly ruler having overtaken the temporal Lord will stand in "his" stead.

That then will meet the criteria, the definition in old Hebrew, of "Abomination", and the "Desolation" will be the holy consecrated "properties", ground, temples, will be made desolate by that abomination that sought to overtake the sacred space believers cherish.

That's my take. That is what comes to me when asked to consider your question. Thank you for asking me. Blessings.
Well thank you for such a well thought out and put together response. I mean that.

Before I sound like I'm "attacking" can I ask you where you get all this from? I mean I understand this ts your own personal view of these things, but from my outside perspective seem to be a lot more "view" than what we read in scripture.

First of all that "holy place" is said to be in Jerusalem as well, and that the sacrifices are interrupted too. I don't think I've stepped too far outside logic to conclude the holy place in Jerusalem where sacrifices take place is God's temple. To be honest before I started seeing this problem and bringing it up I NEVER heard anything but this happens in the "3rd temple", now all of a sudden it's mushy and maybe this, or maybe that. Honestly it really blows my mind anyone with the futurist view doesn't firmly stand on this 3rd temple. Which the way I see it now do you think it's easy to stand firm on what I say I believe even when it causes others to lash out, blacklist, and call me names.(not you obviously) So when I get mish mush answers on questions like this, and now for the first time I hear things like "a literal flag that will be set in the holy place in Jerusalem's major synagogue, and in all Christian churches that will be rendered closed and off limits due to a one world order type of power set or government that will rise up" I just don't get it. A "major synagogue" is the holy place? Why? Where in the world do you draw this from scripture? <----I'm asking with all due respect, just in case it seems harsh, tone is impossible in text and I appreciate your whole attitude here and don't want to ruin it. :D
 

Jimbone

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Aug 22, 2014
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I dont believe you read my verses.
You can not say we have none.
Copy and paste my verses.
I want to see you embrace another possibility.
I can easily present the postrib doctrine.
It is easy.
It all cliche oriented.
Mine is VERSES.
POST MY VERSES . If you can not form alternative and challenging powerpoints,opposing MY VERSES ,then your deal is disingenuous.
Okay here are the verses you posted most recently,

"Then we keep reading to see if that "pretrib dynamic" is authenticated...and Bingo....Jesus says this;
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

I have a question for you keeping this exact context in mind. In this scenario, the whole scenario of Noah, the flood, and the wicked. In this scenario who was taken from the earth, the good or the wicked? On top of that who did God say inherits the earth? Just thoughts, not arguments here, it just doesn't match the way God has always done it in my mind.