The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

The firstfruits
First stage
Of the first resurrection.

I don't believe that "firstfruit" (or "harvest") necessarily must include "resurrection [bodily; from the dead]"



In the WHEAT harvest (Matt13), those folks are still standing [/living] on the earth at the time of "harvest" ("let both grow together until...")... They aren't "raptured" either, but ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)... in their mortal bodies, capable of reporoducing / bearing children... (and with "the 144,000" being "firstfruit" of that "WHEAT" harvest--Again, let the readers note the TWO distinct mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23... with the SECOND one being associated with the "WHEAT" harvest [v.17] where it states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--that AIN'T *US*[/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / US])

 

[Rondonmon]

That happens a lot in forums. We will disagree on our acceptance/understanding of mans freewill.

There is nothing to disagree about, I am correct. I hope you are nit a Predestination (Calvin) type, because that takes one down a rabbit hole. I can destroy predestination.

Paul was only pointing out that God Predestinated us ALL unto Salvation via Jesus, not that God CHOSE all men who wee going to heaven or hell. That would not be our God. That is simply man not understanding the scriptures. Of course we have free will, we are not slaves, Gid allows us to chose to follow humor Satan. Those in hell chose their own path.

If a guy on death row refuses a pardon who condemned him? He did himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Factor in The first resurrection of 1 thes 4 , alongside rev 14

Could you explain where you see a resurrection of believers in Rev 14?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you are basically saying the 1st resurrection of 1st thes 4, is AFTER the gathering of rev 14.?

Why would I say that? Of course not. Why do you see "the gathering" in Rev 14 as a resurrection of believers anyway?

In fact, the only "gathering" mentioned in Rev 14 is in v.18 - Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”

And what follows is that the gathering of these grapes is found in v.19 - The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.

And you know the result of this "gathering":

v.18 - They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

Hm. Lots and lots of BLOOD. Is that what you think of when you mention "the gathering"? Because that's what it refers to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""In fact, not. The 3 points above totally refute your claims"""

Rev 14 makes the claim.
I read it, then factor it in.

No, all you've done is make a lot of claims, but without any evidence. Just citing "Rev 14" doesn't cut it. Please provide actual verse numbers, or even quoting them.

Here's the deal. Rev 14 doesn't refute the 3 points I've listed. Here they are again:

1. There is ONE resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23, Acts 24:15
2. ALL believers from all time will participate in that ONE resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The ONE resurrection of all believers occurs "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5

These 3 points destroys ALL theories that are not in alignment with the Bible.

Now, unlike yourself, I have attached verses that actually SAY what I believe.

You can not accept it so you pretend it is not there.

What is it that you think is "there"?

Look at your last post.
Nothing there erases rev 14.

Again, Rev 14 doesn't erase anything. Since the 3 points are firmly attached to the Bible, YOU tell ME how Rev 14 is erased.

In fact, I have no idea what you mean by that.

We can all see the dodge.

Well, I don't. So please enlighten me. What am I dodging?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""REV 14 TAKES PLACE ON EARTH
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb"""

ONCE AGAIN ,SMH, you OMIT, then high five yourself as if you succesfully teframed what you COULD HAVE kept in context

One of your bad habits is to make a claim that is anything but clear.

You keep saying that people "omit" from a passage, but you NEVER explain what it is that they are omitting.

So, if you do it again, please include what you think is being omitted. As it is, your claims are empty and cannot be responded to since it is far from clear what you think is being omitted.

Or, maybe you are just keeping that ol' smokescreen of yours pumping out the smoke, to cover inability to explain or defend yourself.

But no, you NEED those components OMITTED.

Well, just TELL kleronomos what components he OMITTED. Can you do that?

 

[Beckie]

There is nothing to disagree about, I am correct. I hope you are nit a Predestination (Calvin) type, because that takes one down a rabbit hole. I can destroy predestination.

Paul was only pointing out that God Predestinated us ALL unto Salvation via Jesus, not that God CHOSE all men who wee going to heaven or hell. That would not be our God. That is simply man not understanding the scriptures. Of course we have free will, we are not slaves, Gid allows us to chose to follow humor Satan. Those in hell chose their own path.

If a guy on death row refuses a pardon who condemned him? He did himself.

The Guy on death row is not God .

I dont tend to fit in any one box except to know i am no longer in the dispensational one .

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are admitting Jesus leaves his throne BEFORE satan is crushed.

Why wouldn't Jesus leave His throne in heaven in order to crush Satan??? Please explain how your brain works.

Or, just answer this: do you believe that Jesus crushes Satan from heaven? If so, what verses would inform of that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ahhhh
The firstfruits
First stage
Of the first resurrection.

Good point.

Bad point. The ONLY "firstfruits" involved in the resurrection of the saved is Jesus Christ Himself. Because He was the first human to receive His glorified body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This verse proves that NONE of the humans who were brought back from the dead received a glorified body. Jesus was the first One.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The focus of my post had been on this:

[TDW] "And that Rev11:17 is speaking of something EVEN BEFORE the "7th Trumpet" point in time? (which then would agree with what I'd stated about 19:6)"


...both of these verses using the same word (under discussion)... but which you are saying only commences at the Rev19 time-slot.

I disagree, for reasons I stated in that post (esp. re. the "PERFECT indicative" of the preceding verb in 11:17 and how THAT impacts the rest of the verbs in that sentence, though being "aorist," would prove them to be [starting at some point in] "past" because of the first verb being "PERFECT indicative" and the Greek grammars saying that the verbs which follow on in the sentence would then jive with that verb / verb tense).




But, let me just say, what you wrote above sounds very similar to the dismissive point [new member] "Beckie" wrote about her not seeing the sequence between the resurrection of LIFE and the resurrection of DAMNATION [/JUDGMENT] being SEPARATED BY the 1000 YEARS. (which you agree there is this spans of time BETWEEN them... why? because you've actually looked at the chronology issues pertaining... but which you seem unwilling to do with this word "reign" in Rev19:6 / 11:17 Oh well...)

I don't mean to be offensive, but I really don't understand what your point is. Your posts aren't easy to read, what with all the bolds, brackets, large print, underlinings, parentheses, italics, etc.

So, could you please just boil it all down to your point. That should take just one sentence. And please leave out all your "enhancements" to your typing, if you can resist the urge.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Absolutely said:
The firstfruits
First stage
Of the first resurrection.

I don't believe that "firstfruit" (or "harvest") necessarily must include "resurrection [bodily; from the dead]"

The ONLY SENSE that "reaping" and "harvest" is used in Rev 14 is in regard to God's winepress of His WRATH. And there will be loads and loads of blood.

There is no resurrection in ch 14. And Abs won't cite any verse that he thinks does.

 

[Beckie]

According to Scripture Jesus has all power in heaven and earth. Why would He have to leave His throne?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't mean to be offensive, but I really don't understand what your point is. Your posts aren't easy to read, what with all the bolds, brackets, large print, underlinings, parentheses, italics, etc.
So, could you please just boil it all down to your point. That should take just one sentence. And please leave out all your "enhancements" to your typing, if you can resist the urge.
Thanks.

Yeah.

Revelation 19:6's word "REIGN" = same word used of Him in Revelation 11:17... and in Revelation 11:17 it is saying that He has ALREADY begun to reign prior to that "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" point in the chronology which itself is prior to His Second Coming to the earth;

...not that He only just begins to "reign" at the Rev19 point in the chronology, as you suggest it is saying in 19:6.







Hope that helps you see my point. = )








[for the readers: this is a matter of "chronology," just like grasping that the "1000 YEARS" intervenes between the two issues mentioned in John 5:29]

 

[Absolutely]

I don't believe that "firstfruit" (or "harvest") necessarily must include "resurrection [bodily; from the dead]"



In the WHEAT harvest (Matt13), those folks are still standing [/living] on the earth at the time of "harvest" ("let both grow together until...")... They aren't "raptured" either, but ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)... in their mortal bodies, capable of reporoducing / bearing children... (and with "the 144,000" being "firstfruit" of that "WHEAT" harvest--Again, let the readers note the TWO distinct mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23... with the SECOND one being associated with the "WHEAT" harvest [v.17] where it states, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"<--that AIN'T *US*[/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY / US])

Apples<>Oranges

 

[Absolutely]

Could you explain where you see a resurrection of believers in Rev 14?

I dont see any

 

[Beckie]

...


[for the readers: this is a matter of "chronology," just like grasping that the "1000 YEARS" intervenes between the two issues mentioned in John 5:29]

TDw's theology says the above ,,
Our Lord Jesus says this ;
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to Scripture Jesus has all power in heaven and earth. Why would He have to leave His throne?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Because He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Who will He rule during His Millennial rule? The survivors of the Trib. All unbelievers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't mean to be offensive, but I really don't understand what your point is. Your posts aren't easy to read, what with all the bolds, brackets, large print, underlinings, parentheses, italics, etc.
So, could you please just boil it all down to your point. That should take just one sentence. And please leave out all your "enhancements" to your typing, if you can resist the urge.
Thanks.

Yeah.

Revelation 19:6's word "REIGN" = same word used of Him in Revelation 11:17... and in Revelation 11:17 it is saying that He has ALREADY begun to reign prior to that "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" point in the chronology which itself is prior to His Second Coming to the earth;

When did Jesus become the King of kings, and Lord of lords? He always has been. No real mystery here.

Rev 11:17 - saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

Rev 19:6 - Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

What do these verses prove to you? It should be obvious to every believer that Jesus is the King. Kings reign. I still don't know your point.

...not that He only just begins to "reign" at the Rev19 point in the chronology, as you suggest it is saying in 19:6.

OK. 1 Tim 6:15, Rev 17:14 and 19:16 all describe Jesus as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

So even 2,000 years ago Jesus was described that way.

Hope that helps you see my point. = )

Could you state it in 1 sentence, please?

[for the readers: this is a matter of "chronology," just like grasping that the "1000 YEARS" intervenes between the two issues mentioned in John 5:29]

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Could you explain where you see a resurrection of believers in Rev 14?

I dont see any

Well then, what has been your point about the chapter? You've been talking about firstfruits, reaping and harvests seemingly in reference to a resurrection.

So, now that you are clear that ch 14 isn't about resurrection, why is it so important to you?

 

[Beckie]

Because He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Who will He rule during His Millennial rule? The survivors of the Trib. All unbelievers.

Jesus is my King today He is the King of kings . Does he not rule today for you? Does He not have all power in Heaven and earth?