The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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TheDivineWatermark

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OK. 1 Tim 6:15, Rev 17:14 and 19:16 all describe Jesus as King of kings, and Lord of lords.

So even 2,000 years ago Jesus was described that way.
There are only TWO mentions of "King" (re: Jesus) in all of the epistles, and both of them are "FUTURE" tense (you reference one of those: 1Tim6:15);

Rev17:14 and 19:16 (which you also reference) are also located in the "future" aspects of the Book of Revelation (1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c = "future" aspects). See Rev19:15b "SHALL [future tense]" even from that point in time, as you well know and agree.




Yes, we know He IS "King of kings"... but our discussion centered around the TIMING issues with what Rev19:6's "reigns [aorist indicative]" refers to specifically... so I pointed to that same word in 11:17 (also re: Him) and explained THAT text (and its TIMING issues, which you are choosing to disregard). Believe as you wish, FG2.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Jesus is my King today He is the King of kings . Does he not rule today for you? Does He not have all power in Heaven and earth?
My post showed that back 2,000 years ago Jesus was described as "King of kings, and Lord of lords". So of course He is the Ruler of all believers.
 
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That WAS one sentence.

Post #2673 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4778602

You didn't see any "period" [ . (end of sentence)] in the middle of all those words I put, did you? No. Coz there was none.
No I didn't.

Here is your sentence:

Revelation 19:6's word "REIGN" = same word used of Him in Revelation 11:17... and in Revelation 11:17 it is saying that He has ALREADY begun to reign prior to that "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" point in the chronology which itself is prior to His Second Coming to the earth;

...not that He only just begins to "reign" at the Rev19 point in the chronology, as you suggest it is saying in 19:6.

You have 2 sets of "..."s one semicolon and a space between lines. So, yes, technically, it is one sentence. But it should have been written as 3 or 4 sentences.

You did leave out all the enhancements that are typical of your posts. But I still don't know your point about "reign".
 

TheDivineWatermark

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So, yes, technically, it is one sentence.
Thank you for that acknowledgment. = )

But it should have been written as 3 or 4 sentences.
Tell that to Paul who wrote super-duper long sentences when writing out his prayers. lol

You did leave out all the enhancements that are typical of your posts. But I still don't know your point about "reign".
That's because you didn't read what post I'd referred back to, at the bottom of my Post #2681 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4778673 (i.e. referring back the original post where I had explained Rev11:17's mention of "have begun to reign" - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm and WHEN that refers to, time-wise in the "chronology"... but ignore it if you wish, FG2)
 

Beckie

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My post showed that back 2,000 years ago Jesus was described as "King of kings, and Lord of lords". So of course He is the Ruler of all believers.
Seems we agree He is King!
 
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Thank you for that acknowledgment. = )
You are welcome.

Tell that to Paul who wrote super-duper long sentences when writing out his prayers. lol
I wasn't asking Paul for one concise sentence. :)

That's because you didn't read what post I'd referred back to, at the bottom of my Post #2681 - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...at-happens-at-the-rapture.203234/post-4778673 (i.e. referring back the original post where I had explained Rev11:17's mention of "have begun to reign" - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/11-17.htm and WHEN that refers to, time-wise in the "chronology"... but ignore it if you wish, FG2)
Well, when I ask for a poster to make a point in one sentence, I'm not asking for references to other posts.

Just one sentence. If you can make a point, that would be fine.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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ewq1938

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1. either in time or place, in any succession of things or of persons


Ever pondered on FIRST resurrection being THE BEST kind, OR MOST HOPED to achieve as opposed to specific day?

There are two resurrections in Rev 20. One happens first, one happens last and there is a thousand years inbetween. The first resurrection is not only first in time because it happens first but also is first in importance or rank because the resurrection of the saved dead is more important than the resurrection of the unsaved dead.




ALL the 'unsaved' nations who go through the 1000 years coming to the temple to worship,

were not a part of the first resurrection, so they had to have taken part in a first death.
No, they not die. They remain alive through the thousand years and at it's end, those who join satan will die that first death outside of Jerusalem.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that they 'remain' dead as in 'spiritually dead' until Satan is released and they either choose life or death? Have you considered these before, and if so what did you find?
Some are spiritually dead while physically alive.
 

ewq1938

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2198. zaó
Strong's Concordance​
zaó: to live

Original Word: ζάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: zaó
Phonetic Spelling: (dzah'-o)
Definition: to live
Usage: I live, am alive.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2198 záō – to live, experience God's gift of life. See 2222 (zōē).​


Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


I am going with Becky on the resurrection being from dead to alive SPIRITUALLY, not just physically.
They are only resurrected back to physical life. They are still called the dead despite being resurrected. Only the spiritually dead will enter the lake of fire.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

They are physically alive and standing but also dead.
 
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I did that, and you read it.

And then you even later agreed that it was indeed ONE SENTENCE.

Why do I need to repeat it?
Do you really not read the whole post. I also pointed out your 1 sentence was more like 3-4 sentences.

Why can't you boil your point down to 1 normal length sentence?
 
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I believe 1 Cor 15:23 is true.
Then you must believe that 1 Cor 15:43 is also true?

Does that leave any other possibility as to WHAT BODY they were raised with being they were SAINTS?

I understand it is an inconvenient truth that a first in time resurrection took place, but it is what it is.

With bodies GLORIFIED OR NOT THERE WAS A RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS ON THE LAST DAY, SO THE ONE COMING ON THE LAST DAY OF THIS 'AGE', CAN NOT, IS NOT AND WILL NOT BE THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF SAINTS.

THOUGH IT WILL BE THE ONLY TIME THE ALIVE AND REMAINING' ARE CHANGED/RESURRECTED, if that helps at all.

I personally DON'T CARE what PRE TRIBs BELIEVE OR DON'T BELIEVE. I CARE ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE SEEKING TRUTH, WHO HAVE YET TO BE DECEIVED. THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN PRE TRIB are JUST HERE TO SET THE STAGE TO PUT FORTH THE GOOD WORDS OF GOD. But EVEN IF WHAT I BELIEVE is something THEY MAY FIND USEFUL, it can't change what I do BECAUSE THE WORDS OF TRUTH WILL ALWAYS WIN. WHAT IS WRITTEN WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL. THE LONGER IT GOES ON THE MORE the TRUTH IS EASILY SEEN, THE MORE CONFUSING THE OTHER SIDE IS SHOWN TO BE. THE MORE FRUITS WE all WITNESS.



HERE IS THE PROPHESY
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you,
he that heareth My word,
and believeth on Him that sent Me,
hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

WHO HEARS HIS VOICE?
John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
THAT WAS THEN, THAT RESURRECTION HAPPENED IN THE PAST, THE DAY CHRIST DIED FOR US.


THIS RESURRECTION WILL TAKE PLACE IN THE FUTURE.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

NOTICE IT DOESN'T SAY 'ETERNAL' LIFE. There is no immortality implied in this resurrection of life. I believe these are those of the nations that will rise for the Lords Day. THE GRAVES OF ALL WHO HAVE EVER DIED. THESE JUST PEOPLE ARE GOOD PEOPLE. RIGHT PEOPLE. CHARITABLE PEOPLE. HONEST PEOPLE. EVERYTHING GOD WOULD LOVE TO SEE IN HIS PEOPLE PEOPLE

BUT NONE OF THESE JUST AND RIGHT PEOPLE DIED KNOWING THE LORD AND HIS SAVIOR.
THEY ARE NOT SAVED as THEY NEVER KNEW GOD. THEY NEVER HEARD HIS WORD. THEY DON'T KNOW TRUTH.

THEY ARE JUST AND RIGHT yet SPIRITUALLY DEAD. AND NOW THEY HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED TO 'LIFE' BUT THEY WILL REMAIN 'SPIRITUALLY DEAD' FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS, TILL SATAN RELEASED AND THEY TO ARE TESTED.

THESE ARE the possible SECOND RESURRECTION people. THEY WILL NOT RULE AND REIGN. THEY WILL BE RULED AND REIGNED OVER. THEY MAY FAIL AND END UP IN THE LAKE OF FIRE, THEIR SECOND DEATH or receive their immortality.

AGAIN THESE ARE THE NATIONS THAT FOR THE LORDS DAY REMAIN 'SPIRITUALLY DEAD' YET were raised up IN INCORRUPTIBLE BUT MORTAL (SECOND DEATH) BODIES.


Then there are the UN JUST. What is the resurrection of damnation? I DON'T KNOW except for 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


SO those who were raised and SEEN that 'last day' showed that JESUS had indeed TRIUMPHED over death. He had set US free of the bondage of death.

The 'GIFT OF SALVATION' was MORE THAN A PROMISE, it was real.

HE WAS/IS THE SON OF GOD.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


SLEPT
2837. koimaó from NG2749

Definition: sleep, fall asleep, die
Usage: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

AROSE
1453. egeiró
Strong's Concordance
egeiró: to waken, to raise up

Definition: to waken, to raise up
Usage: (a) I wake, arouse, (b) I raise up.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
awake, lift up, raise up
Probably akin to the base of agora (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. Rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence) -- awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.


THIS WAS THE 'LAST DAY' SPOKEN OF (IS THERE EVER a 'last day' spoken of again? OR do we hear the Lords Day)
THE LAST DAY OF THE OLD COVENANT.
THE LAST DAY OF THE FLESH LIFE OF JESUS.
THE LAST DAY OF BEING UNDER THE LAW.
THE LAST DAY OF ALL BLOOD SACRIFICES.
THE LAST DAY OF OT PROPHECIES CONCERNING THE MESSIAH
THE LAST DAY OF THIS AGE, IF HE HAD BEEN ACCEPTED AND NOT REJECTED.
THE LAST DAY THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BEING NEAR. (SET UP ON EARTH)



BUT IT WAS THE FIRST DAY OF UNDER GRACE,
UNDER FORGIVENESS FOR SINS.
THE FIRST DAY OF 'NEVER TASTING DEATH' FOR THE SAVED,
(tasting death NOW only for the UN SAVED).
THE FIRST DAY OF THE LATTER DAYS.
THE FIRST DAY OF NO BLOOD SACRIFICIES
NO TEMPLE RITUALS, NO CONFESSING TO PRIEST
TO BOLDING APPROACHING THE LORD THROUGH THE CLEANSING BLOOD OF CHRIST


This happened.
Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.


Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest Him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst Him with glory and honour, and didst set Him over the works of Thy hands
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour;
that HE by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also himself likewise took part of the same THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS THE DEVIL
 
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They are only resurrected back to physical life. They are still called the dead despite being resurrected. Only the spiritually dead will enter the lake of fire.

I agree. These are the nations. (if I am addressing the correct post)
 
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See that? The remnant of believers, those left behind, which includes postribbers, get their heads chopped off.
POWER given the ac to kill all believers refusing the mark.

SO WHAT is your point? YES, SOME LOSE THEIR LIVES. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? SOME LOSE THEIR HEADS. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? POWER GIVEN AC TO KILL ALL BELIEVERS REFUSING MARK. SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT? ALL BELIEVERS KILLED.


SERIOUSLY, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

AM I SUPPOSED TO FEAR OF WHAT GOD TELLS ME NOT TO FEAR?

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE HAVING A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH IT, DOESN'T MEAN EVERYONE ELSE DOES. YOU CAN'T SCARE ME. HE CAN'T SCARE ME. WHAT EVER HAPPENS HAS HAPPENED TO SOMEONE BEFORE ME. WHEN YOU LOVE GOD YOU ARE WILLING TO DO THIS, HAPPILY KNOWING WHAT COMES NEXT IS WORTH EVER SO MUCH MORE THAN WHAT HAPPENS NOW.

YOU NEED TO QUIT TRYING TO SCARE PEOPLE FROM YOUR OWN PLACE OF FEAR.


WRITE THIS OUT 100 times and then get back to me.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; WHO FOR THE JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM ENDURED THE CROSS, DESPISING THE SHAME, AND IS SET DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF GOD.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider HIM that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
 
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Uh ,sorry, but Jesus left heaven and stood before John at Patmos.

He also left heaven before satan was destroyed to go and destroy satan at armageddon.

You have no standing at all in that footstool deal.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Yeah.

Revelation 19:6's word "REIGN" = same word used of Him in Revelation 11:17... and in Revelation 11:17 it is saying that He has ALREADY begun to reign prior to that "7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe" point in the chronology which itself is prior to His Second Coming to the earth;

...not that He only just begins to "reign" at the Rev19 point in the chronology, as you suggest it is saying in 19:6.

Both are same day. 11:17 is first, then 19:6 comes after. The 6th seal also speaks of that same day.
 
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Don't forget the "hypo podas [G5259 G4228]" of Romans 16:20 - "... shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (addressed to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"; using the SAME "TIME-PERIOD" phrasing that Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c [/ 7:3(who are on the earth)] refers to when speaking of the "future" aspects of the Book, aka the "7 year period" leading UP TO Christ "RETURN" to the earth Rev19)

-- https://biblehub.com/text/romans/16-20.htm







[and note again what the 24 elders SAY in Rev5:9 ("hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY"), what is said OF them in v.10, and which corresponds with what is said in Rev1:5-6 ("hath made us kings [or, a kingdom] and priests unto God and his Father...")... with 5:9 showing them saying this UP IN Heaven *before* the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (aka when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of those "7 years" [yet future])]
i DON'T HOW WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE RELATES TO THIS OR WHAT THE POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE WAS.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
 
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....and since the one who wrote romans did not go through anything close to the great tribulation, he must be assigned a lowly place with us pretribbers, as will you, should you pass away without being an "overcomer" ,as you erroneously portray "overcomer", exclusively to some imagined saints running from cave to cave, being chased by the ac bogey man wielding an axe.
I figured you out!!! You are a Post Tribber!!! No one else could set up a place for GODS TRUTHS to SHINE THROUGH any better that you do. THANK YOU for playing the 'other side' so well. BUT please at least don't post things EVERYONE already knows to be lies anymore as it really makes your credibility non existent but probably too late already. Maybe look for some of the more obscure things that people will have to look up. This one is especially BAD as there isn't a Christian around who doesn't know that PAUL went through close to as much hell as Job did. Again, I thank you. I wonder if I should go read all those posts I skipped...maybe if I see something new from you in the next 20 or so pages. (don't want you to feel any pressure)

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.



I mean, out of everyone you picked PAUL? smh
 
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....and since the one who wrote romans did not go through anything close to the great tribulation, he must be assigned a lowly place with us pretribbers, as will you, should you pass away without being an "overcomer" ,as you erroneously portray "overcomer", exclusively to some imagined saints running from cave to cave, being chased by the ac bogey man wielding an axe.

Forgot the 2nd part And NO, I believe what is written and have complete FAITH in the powers of God. Nothing will come upon me that is not HIS WILL. I am more than good with that.


I just wrote out what Rev 6:2 says and it says the first seal is a rider on a white horse who HAS TO BE GIVEN A CROWN and only has a cheap fabric bow is sent out to overcome and will overcome. Then I pointed out how ALL THE CHRISTIANS are told THEY PERSONALLY NEED TO OVERCOME TO receive the promises. I don't see how that could be considered a leap at all. Seriously, it's not like I took a group of people and COMPLETELY RENAMED THEM for the defense of a theory:sneaky:

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 FOR WE WRESTLE NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES AGAINST POWERS, AGAISNT RULERS OF DARKNESS OF THIS WORLD, AGAINST SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS IN HIGH PLACES

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, THAT YE MAY BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND IN THE EVIL DAY, AND HAVING DONE ALL TO STAND

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, WHEREWITH YE SHALL BE ABLE TO QUENCH ALL THE FIERY DARTS OF THE WICKED.

NOT JUST SOME OF THE DARTS? WOULD THAT MEAN NOT JUST FOR PART OF THE TIME, BUT THE WHOLE TIME? EVEN AFTER THE KILLING AND THE BEHEADING STARTS?

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
 
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