The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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DavidTree

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Revelation 4:1
After these things I looked and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice that I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here and I will show you things which must take place after this."

"After this": after the Church age, the age of Grace.

"Come up here": a foreshadowing of the Rapture of the Church. Typified by the 24 elders, who now appear in chapter 4.

Chapter 5 the Lamb takes the scroll, witnessed by the 24 elders.

Chapter 6 the seal judgments begin.

The Church is absent from chapters 6 through 18.

The wife, His Bride reappears in chapter 19, arrayed in white wedding garments, prepared for the wedding supper. The Second Coming occurs next. Nothing whatsoever is mentioned about a rapture in chapter 19 (Because the Second Coming and the rapture are mutually exclusive of course!). It has already occurred in chapter 4.....the result of which is the end of the Church age, and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, the DOTL.
Here you go again with your falsehoods.

Your 1st falsehood is that "Jesus is not speaking to His Bride/His Elect/His Church in Matt ch24'

Your 2nd falsehood you make is 2 Thess ch2 "the falling away is the rapture."

Your 3rd falsehood you make is "the Church is not in Revelation chapters 6 - 18".

All lies from a hear that worships the big laodecian lie of pre-trib rapture.

3 Strikes your OUT........
 
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There is no codex from 200 AD. The Peshitta is a translation of the Bible into Aramaic from around that time. So if you are are using the Peshitta (translated into English), it is not superior to the King James Bible.
My bad 3rd Century:



the Codex Sinaiticus

The oldest extant Greek codex, said to date from the 3rd century, is the Codex Sinaiticus,
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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My bad 3rd Century: the Codex Sinaiticus The oldest extant Greek codex, said to date from the 3rd century, is the Codex Sinaiticus,
Sorry but your date is still off by about 150 years. Codex Sinaiticus (known by the Hebrew letter Aleph) is dated from the middle of the fourth century, and about the same age as Codex Vaticanus (B). They may even be related since both of them omit Mark 16:9-16, but Vaticanus actually leaves a blank space where that passage belonged! These are the only two manuscripts with this major omission. And both these MSS form the basis of the critical text of Westcott & Hort (which continues to this day) and forms the basis of all corrupt modern English bibles.

But if you sincerely believe that it is a reliable manuscript, you have been very seriously deceived. Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener -- the leading textual scholar of the 19th century -- did a FULL COLLATION of Codex Sinaiticus. John William Burgon -- another outstanding textual scholar from the 19th century -- carefully compared it to the Received Text. And what was their verdict? IT IS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS IN EXISTENCE.

Tischendorf (who "discovered" this manuscript in a wastebasket) counted 14, 800 corrections in it. Scrivener said "The Codex is covered with alterations of an obviously correctional character—brought in by at least ten different revisers, some of them systematically spread over every page, others occasional, or limited to separate portions of the manuscript, many of these being contemporaneous with the first writer, but for the greater part belonging to the sixth or seventh century."

So if you want the truth about this seriously corrupted and mutilated manuscript, read Scrivener's comments, as well as Burgon's in The Revision Revised. You would be wise to dump Sinaiticus in the trash can.
 
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Sorry but your date is still off by about 150 years. Codex Sinaiticus (known by the Hebrew letter Aleph) is dated from the middle of the fourth century, and about the same age as Codex Vaticanus (B). They may even be related since both of them omit Mark 16:9-16, but Vaticanus actually leaves a blank space where that passage belonged! These are the only two manuscripts with this major omission. And both these MSS form the basis of the critical text of Westcott & Hort (which continues to this day) and forms the basis of all corrupt modern English bibles.

But if you sincerely believe that it is a reliable manuscript, you have been very seriously deceived. Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener -- the leading textual scholar of the 19th century -- did a FULL COLLATION of Codex Sinaiticus. John William Burgon -- another outstanding textual scholar from the 19th century -- carefully compared it to the Received Text. And what was their verdict? IT IS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS IN EXISTENCE.

Tischendorf (who "discovered" this manuscript in a wastebasket) counted 14, 800 corrections in it. Scrivener said "The Codex is covered with alterations of an obviously correctional character—brought in by at least ten different revisers, some of them systematically spread over every page, others occasional, or limited to separate portions of the manuscript, many of these being contemporaneous with the first writer, but for the greater part belonging to the sixth or seventh century."

So if you want the truth about this seriously corrupted and mutilated manuscript, read Scrivener's comments, as well as Burgon's in The Revision Revised. You would be wise to dump Sinaiticus in the trash can.
It's still better than the KJV which uses mythical creatures to describe the Hebrew Word for Loftiness as Unicorn and confirmed they did not fully understood Koine Greek so did their best translation through Classical Greek, which the 2 are as opposite from night and day.
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the saved and unsaved. All believers will face the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10. This is to determine the level of rewards or loss of rewards.

According to Rev 20:4,5 the Tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and reign with Christ on earth. He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the Second Advent, who will make up the "nations" that Jesus will rule? It is obviously the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation.


Since there is only one resurrection for the saved, and that includes the living believers, all of whom receive resurrection bodies in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52, IF this single resurrection occurs before the Tribulation, that renders Rev 20:4,5 as NOT true. Which cannot be.

2 Thess 2:1 tells us in plain words that the Second Advent and "rapture" (gathering) will occur together.

" Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"
Good questions there Freegrace.

Yes we know the `judgment` seat of Christ how it is different from judgment at the Great White Throne. Yes as you rightly say, rewards or loss of those things done under the power of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. Where as the great White Throne judgment is for what people have done according to their conscience - the motive of their works. (Rev. 20: 13)

Now there is only ONE TYPE of resurrection for a believer - to life, however the timing and the inheritances are different. To lob everyone into one time slot and for one purpose is not what God`s eternal purpose through Christ is all about.

The purpose of God through Christ for the Body necessitates us being transferred from earth to Christ`s own throne before the trib, for we are the court that will pass judgment upon the world system and fallen angels. (rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3) Heavenly rule purpose.

Then the martyred believers in the trib, that were looking for Christ the Messiah`s rule through Israel, will be of that purpose - earthly rule purpose.

Remember that the Lord made all the realms in God`s great kingdom and all rebellious rule in each realm is being brought under Christ. And He will establish His rulership in each of those realms. (1 Cor. 15: 25, Col. 1: 16)
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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Good questions there Freegrace.
Thank you. :)

Yes we know the `judgment` seat of Christ how it is different from judgment at the Great White Throne. Yes as you rightly say, rewards or loss of those things done under the power of the Holy Spirit and not for self aggrandizement. Where as the great White Throne judgment is for what people have done according to their conscience - the motive of their works. (Rev. 20: 13)
Jesus made some very interesting comments when He compared the residents of Sodom and Gomorrha to residents of cities during His life on earth; how it will be MORE TOLERABLE for S & G than the current cities in Israel. That must have really shocked those self righteous Pharisees, to be compared with the lowlifes of S & G.

I believe that Jesus was teaching that life in the LoF will be different for people. iow, some will have it "more tolerable" than others, while others will have it "less tolerable" than others. All based on their deeds, which is what will be evaluated and judged at the GWT judgment.

Now there is only ONE TYPE of resurrection for a believer - to life, however the timing and the inheritances are different. To lob everyone into one time slot and for one purpose is not what God`s eternal purpose through Christ is all about.
I can't help but believe that there will be only ONE resurrection of the saved, because the Bible only speaks of a resurrection in the singular.

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.

The purpose of God through Christ for the Body necessitates us being transferred from earth to Christ`s own throne before the trib, for we are the court that will pass judgment upon the world system and fallen angels.
It makes more sense to understand that all this WILL occur in the Millennial reign of Christ. Glorified believers WILL co-reign with Christ and pass judgment on the direction of King Jesus. The problem with a pretrib rapture and trip to heaven is that there are NO verses that show this at all. And the Bible teaches a single resurrection for the saved and a single resurrection for the unsaved.

And in that single resurrection of the saved, that will include all the living believers, who will be "gathered up" or raptured.

Then the martyred believers in the trib, that were looking for Christ the Messiah`s rule through Israel, will be of that purpose - earthly rule purpose.
Rev 20:4,5 call the resurrection of the Tribulation martyrs the FIRST one. That proves that the single resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.

And 2 Thess 2:1 actually says that as well. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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No, the Greek doesn't have strength as it's meaning.
Morphological GNT vs Textus Receptus

Time to start counting manuscripts?

Anyway......tough question. I do favor the KJV......but I also shop around and I am definitely not KJV only. Textual criticism is above my pay grade.
 
Dec 4, 2021
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Resurrection. There are two types - One to life and one to condemnation.[/QUOTE

Speaking of Resurrections when I remember there was already a Resurrection when Jesus commended his spirit to God the graves were opened and many Resurrected, I am amazed. But moving into the prophetic future concerning resurrections, I don’t agree with the broad belief of one Resurrection to life and one Resurrection to damnation. I believe as the Scriptures say the first resurrection is more blessed and those that raise in the first resurrection will rule and reign with Christ in the kingdom they will establish the kingdom on earth and minister to God‘s people that did not resurrect which will live out their lives in their flesh body and go to their graves after 1000 years there will be a second resurrection of all those that did not go in the first resurrection they will raise to the great white throne judgment that’s where it will be decided if they’re in the books if they go to heaven or if they go to the lake of fire. Some in the kingdom of God who resurrected in the first resurrection will actually be are used as a judges to judge God’s people. But backing up during the thousand year reign God’s people who are in their flesh bodies will be ministered to by those in Heaven. The first resurrection, culminates into the marriage supper of the lamb where We become one with Jesus taking on the same resurrected body that he now has. Jesus gives out the jobs that each one will be doing in his kingdom then they come down to the earth all together with Jesus to set up the kingdom. Then the 1,000 year reign.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Sorry but your date is still off by about 150 years. Codex Sinaiticus (known by the Hebrew letter Aleph) is dated from the middle of the fourth century, and about the same age as Codex Vaticanus (B). They may even be related since both of them omit Mark 16:9-16, but Vaticanus actually leaves a blank space where that passage belonged! These are the only two manuscripts with this major omission. And both these MSS form the basis of the critical text of Westcott & Hort (which continues to this day) and forms the basis of all corrupt modern English bibles.

But if you sincerely believe that it is a reliable manuscript, you have been very seriously deceived. Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener -- the leading textual scholar of the 19th century -- did a FULL COLLATION of Codex Sinaiticus. John William Burgon -- another outstanding textual scholar from the 19th century -- carefully compared it to the Received Text. And what was their verdict? IT IS ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT MANUSCRIPTS IN EXISTENCE.

Tischendorf (who "discovered" this manuscript in a wastebasket) counted 14, 800 corrections in it. Scrivener said "The Codex is covered with alterations of an obviously correctional character—brought in by at least ten different revisers, some of them systematically spread over every page, others occasional, or limited to separate portions of the manuscript, many of these being contemporaneous with the first writer, but for the greater part belonging to the sixth or seventh century."

So if you want the truth about this seriously corrupted and mutilated manuscript, read Scrivener's comments, as well as Burgon's in The Revision Revised. You would be wise to dump Sinaiticus in the trash can.
Jerome (the person that wrote the Latin Vulgate), born in 347, commenting on the "Johannine comma" of 1John 5:7-8, complains that unscrupulous EARLIER heretics edited out the longer version! These were probably apostate Arians. The point is that errors were creeping into manuscripts way, way back.

So yes being the "earliest manuscripts" by no means make them the most accurate or most valid!

I'm slowly (very very slowly lol) learning about textual criticism.....and it's an extremely fascinating and extremely difficult topic.

BTW........the Latin Vulgate has its problems yes, but for someone to say that it's only fit for the trashcan is absolute nonsense.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the saved and unsaved. All believers will face the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, per 2 Cor 5:10. This is to determine the level of rewards or loss of rewards.

According to Rev 20:4,5 the Tribulation martyrs will be resurrected and reign with Christ on earth. He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Since all believers will receive their glorified bodies at the Second Advent,

Since there is only one resurrection for the saved, and that includes the living believers, all of whom receive resurrection bodies in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52, IF this single resurrection occurs before the Tribulation, that renders Rev 20:4,5 as NOT true. Which cannot be.

2 Thess 2:1 tells us in plain words that the Second Advent and "rapture" (gathering) will occur together.

" Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,"
"who will make up the "nations" that Jesus will rule? It is obviously the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation."

I don't think so. In fact Ezekiel 20:37 makes clear that not even rebellious Israelites are going to survive the judgments of the Second Coming.

There is also the sheep and goats judgment to consider.

Rebellious enemy gentiles (aka unbelievers) will not survive the judgments of the Second Coming IMO.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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BTW........the Latin Vulgate has its problems yes, but for someone to say that it's only fit for the trashcan is absolute nonsense.
I was not talking about the Latin Vulgate, but Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph), which was only discovered in the 19th century. So there is some confusion there.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I was not talking about the Latin Vulgate, but Codex Sinaiticus (Aleph), which was only discovered in the 19th century. So there is some confusion there.
Yes I'm very well aware that lol. I'm just making a general statement. And yes I agree with you.....that codex has some very serious issues.

But ultimately I'm not really qualified to give anyone any definitive advice on the matter. Just some off hand opinions.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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"who will make up the "nations" that Jesus will rule? It is obviously the unbelievers who survive the Tribulation."

I don't think so.
OK. But I do. All believers are given glorified bodies "when He comes" according to 1 Cor 15:23. So, who's left to rule since ALL believers will have glorified bodies and will rule WITH Christ during the Millennium? Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12.

In fact Ezekiel 20:37 makes clear that not even rebellious Israelites are going to survive the judgments of the Second Coming.
The only judgment at the Second Advent will be the Bema for all believers.

There is also the sheep and goats judgment to consider.
OK.

Rebellious enemy gentiles (aka unbelievers) will not survive the judgments of the Second Coming IMO.
Right. The armies won't survive. Rev 19 makes that clear. But that doesn't include all the rest of civilization.

So, since ALL believers receive glorified bodies at the Second Advent, and will rule with Christ, who is left for King Jesus to rule, if not the survivors of the Tribulation, all of which will be unbelievers, since the saved survivors will have been raptured and received their glorified bodies?
 

cv5

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Jerome (the person that wrote the Latin Vulgate), born in 347, commenting on the "Johannine comma" of 1John 5:7-8, complains that unscrupulous EARLIER heretics edited out the longer version! These were probably apostate Arians. The point is that errors were creeping into manuscripts way, way back.

So yes being the "earliest manuscripts" by no means make them the most accurate or most valid!

I'm slowly (very very slowly lol) learning about textual criticism.....and it's an extremely fascinating and extremely difficult topic.

BTW........the Latin Vulgate has its problems yes, but for someone to say that it's only fit for the trashcan is absolute nonsense.
Here is the source material. Highly recommended. Everyone should read this.....

https://www.bereanpatriot.com/the-johannine-comma-of-1-john-57-8-added-or-removed/

More GREAT info on Textual Criticism....fantastic introductory study material. Perfect for yours truly lol.

https://www.bereanpatriot.com/major...ext-vs-textus-receptus-textual-criticism-101/
 
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Jerome (the person that wrote the Latin Vulgate), born in 347, commenting on the "Johannine comma" of 1John 5:7-8, complains that unscrupulous EARLIER heretics edited out the longer version! These were probably apostate Arians. The point is that errors were creeping into manuscripts way, way back.

So yes being the "earliest manuscripts" by no means make them the most accurate or most valid!

I'm slowly (very very slowly lol) learning about textual criticism.....and it's an extremely fascinating and extremely difficult topic.

BTW........the Latin Vulgate has its problems yes, but for someone to say that it's only fit for the trashcan is absolute nonsense.
It would be best to forget Jerome.
He placed the Order of the New Testament INCORRECTLY and changed the number of the Books creating MORE to the number of Man [66]

The Inspired Order of the Bible - Bellevue University's ...
http://jpatton.bellevue.edu › inspired

Of a truth once a tradition becomes established, it is difficult to change. Yet Jerome knew better. He had a rationale, a wrong rationale, for making these ...


In A.D. 391 Jerome said the following, “As, then, there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew … so we reckon twenty-two books, by which, as by the alphabet of the doctrine of God, a righteous man is instructed…1 Yes, Jerome understood that the Hebrew Old Testament contained 22 books coinciding with the 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet, not 39. And to this day the Jewish translations contain 22 Old Testament books. The books and arrangement or order of the books has never been lost. Even Josephus, in Book 1, Section 8 of his famous work, Antiquities of the Jews, recognized “only 22 books.”


Concerning the New Testament, E.W. Bullinger in his Companion Bible made this bold statement: “Our English Bibles follow the order as given in the Latin Vulgate. This order, therefore, depends on the arbitrary judgment of one man, Jerome. All theories based on this order rest on human authority, and are thus without any true foundation.2 Dr. Bullinger has hit the nail on the head!

The scholar, now deceased, who has done the most research, in the author’s assessment, on the issue of Bible book order, is Earnest Martin. His 1994 book entitled, Restoring the Original Bible, is the most systemic, documented, referenced and scholarly work on the Inspired Order of the Bible. It’s available for $24 from his Web site: http://www.askelm.com.
 
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The Order should be: 49 Inspired Books, not 66 [the number of Man]

Table 1
Inspired Order of the Old Testament:


1642091895062.jpeg

Table 2
Inspired Order of the New Testament:


1642091935785.jpeg
 
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So, anyone thinking the Latin Vulgate and the English Bibles are legit According to God, are being FOOLED!

Should be 49 Inspired Books and the Order should be Law/Prophets/Psalms-Writings + New Testament is out of Order as well!

This is how and why I know you have NO CLUE when you claim Pre-Trib Rapture!!
 
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How TERRIBLE is it that Jerome did not even Follow Jesus' Own Correct Order in Luke 24:44?

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Law
Prophets
Psalms/Writings

To purposefully not follow God's Order is Rebellion, the same as Witchcraft!

Plus, he admits there's only 22 O.T. Books and then creates 39 Books!

The man is no Saint, he is a DEMON Possessed Maniac!
 
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