The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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ewq1938

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God`s throne is forever in the highest

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The throne in this verse is not heaven or a throne in heaven. It's the Earthly throne. I already explained why and how.
 

Marilyn

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Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The throne in this verse is not heaven or a throne in heaven. It's the Earthly throne. I already explained why and how.
Thus you are saying that the Father did not enthrone His Son `far above all.`
 

Absolutely

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Disagree (as you've long been aware :D ) and here's a cpl reasons why:

...besides what I put in my Post #489 -







...one must also explain the MARKED DISTINCTION *between* (the following two verses):

--[Lk21:36] "[keep] WATCH [G69 - agrypneo ("equivalent to G1127 - gregoreo" - per BibleHub)] and pray always IN ORDER THAT [G2443] ye may _________..."
...(regardless of whether the next word, to fill in the blank, is G2661 - kataxioo [from your source, like BLB shows], OR G2729 - katischysete [like BibleHub shows]... regardless of which word, here, makes no difference to the point I'm showing...)

[and]

--[1Th5:10] "... THAT [G2443] whether we may WATCH [G1127 - gregoreo]
OR whether we may SLEEP [G2518 -
katheudó ; SAME TWO Grk words AND IDEAS expressed in v.6 of THIS CONTEXT (i.e. NOT speaking of "DEATH" like the previous chpt's vv.14,15,[16]'s G2837 - koimao )],
we should live together WITH [G4862 - syn - UNIONed-with] Him"

...(the "we" of this text ^ addressing "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]), the "ONE BODY" to/for/about whom "our Rapture" pertains; it does NOT pertain to all OTHER saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints; and it will only occur ONCE [at ONE point in time]).







Your idea of "only WORTHY saints" being RAPTURED / CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED (FOR the "UNIONed-with Him" thing) is not jiving with the text; and also does not jive with how Paul told even the Corinthians (in 1Cor15:51-52), "...WE shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye..." (that's at "our Rapture" event)... as well as the "WE... ALL" of 2Cor5:10 (re: the BEMA of Christ... and you may recall what I said about that and its connection with the word "WAS FOUND" in Rev5:4, before the FIRST SEAL is opened at the START of the "7 years" / Trib)
Rev 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Every bit of those verses ARE TO THE CHURCH.

Under your template your beliefs do not jive with all Jesus says.

In fact, Jesus warnings to the church are OPPOSITE what you are saying.
EXACTLY OPPOSITE.

What do you think the dynamic is behind the crowns rewarded to those EARNING them?

Let me tell you.
WORTHY VS UNWORTHY.

same thing in the rapture
Same thing in the 7 letters to the 7 churches
Same EXACT thing in the parable of the 10 virgins
....and the one taken/left.

All that....you need changed.

But what Jesus is telling you is a no brainer.
Carnal adulterous believers get no crowns and do not go in the rapture.
No way you can change that.

I find it odd you omit the 7 letters to the 7 churches that seal off any hope that some adulterous sinful carnal believers are going in the rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Rev 2
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Every bit of those verses ARE TO THE CHURCH.
No.

The TEXT states (repeatedly), "... what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (which is not the same thing as saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

"...the churchES" are made up of both those who are actually saved believers, AND of those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. are not actually saved).

It is ONLY the ones (in the text) who are said to be "[to him that] OVERCOMETH" (7x in these 2 chpts) who are the "SAVED" persons [see also 1Jn5:4 "overcometh"]

I notice (and may the readers take note) how you deliberately LEFT OUT the following verse (which shows what I'm saying is the case):

Rev2:11 -

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."


...again, 7x "he that OVERCOMETH"/"to him that OVERCOMETH" (refers to those who are the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"... NOT referring to those who are more "worthy" Christians". NO.)

Again, "our Rapture" is NOT a "REWARD" for MORE-WORTHY Christians; Instead, it is the birthright of EVERY MEMBER OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "glorification" aspect of our salvation, which all three aspects are a PACKAGE DEAL (justification, sanctification, glorification), a "package deal" we receive upon trusting in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation.

Under your template your beliefs do not jive with all Jesus says.

In fact, Jesus warnings to the church are OPPOSITE what you are saying.
EXACTLY OPPOSITE.
Again, in Revelation 2-3, these letters are "[what the Spirit saith] unto the churchES" (which is NOT identical to saying, "[what the Spirit saith] unto the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--which indeed is made up of ONLY believers... not so "the churchES," see [only "he that OVERCOMETH" is the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"--study again Rev2:11, quoted above, as one evidence of this fact)

What do you think the dynamic is behind the crowns rewarded to those EARNING them?

Let me tell you.
WORTHY VS UNWORTHY.
same thing in the rapture
Same thing in the 7 letters to the 7 churches
Same EXACT thing in the parable of the 10 virgins
FIVE of the virgins (the "foolish") are NOT SAVED; These "10 Virgins" are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" (nor even the "FIVE [wise] VirginS")... These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [singular]" (<--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"); rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and who [of them] will ENTER that MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

....and the one taken/left.
In these passages, the one "taken" is taken away IN JUDGMENT (just as in Noah's day); and the one "left" is left to enter the earthly MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day); Compare Daniel 2:35c and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" to that of Matt24:37-51 (and its parallel in Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!) THEN the meal [G347; and its occurrences elsewhere, like as found in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the EARTHLY MK age: re: G347 - "Matthew 8:11in the last two passages used figuratively of participation in future blessedness in the Messiah's kingdom." - https://biblehub.com/greek/347.htm ]

All that....you need changed.
Perhaps it's *you* that needs all that (what I've pointed out) to be "changed"... to fit your "only WORTHY Christians are RAPTURED" narrative. ;)

But what Jesus is telling you is a no brainer.
Carnal adulterous believers get no crowns and do not go in the rapture.
No way you can change that.
Scripture does NOT indicate this.

Only by your wading neck-deep into Covenant Theology, as you do, can you come up with these blurred-together recipes, turning things into one big mish-mash of mush.
I find it odd you omit the 7 letters to the 7 churches that seal off any hope that some adulterous sinful carnal believers are going in the rapture.
I do realize the "rewards" will differ (per 2Cor5:10 and 1Cor3:12-15); but again, "WE shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye" refers to what will occur at the time of "our Rapture" (which "RAPTURE" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all OTHER saints of all OTHER time periods; WE will be "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP" as "ONE BODY" at ONE singular point in time, for the PURPOSE [for one] of the "UNIONed-with Him" thing, i.e. pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" itself [not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" which is the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth; Rev19:7 DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9, which v.9 ONLY states that the "INVITING/INVITATION" [TO the SUPPER (aka earthly MK age)] has been completed[!]... not that the SUPPER has taken place yet--only the "MARRIAGE" itself will have been [UP IN Heaven], by that point ["the marriage came... the bride prepared" ("righteousness of saints" ... see also 1Cor1:30-31 "he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord," and Rom7:4, and Phil1:11 "having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which is BY MEANS OF JESUS CHRIST, unto the glory and praise of God." (as part of Paul's prayer)]);

...but again, "our Rapture" is NOT one of the "REWARDS"... but our birthright... part of the package deal that comes with having trusted Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all in "the churchES"--among which many are not actually SAVED PERSONS / not vitally connected with CHRIST--huge difference!!])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ (to add...)
...but again, "our Rapture" is NOT one of the "REWARDS"... but our birthright... part of the package deal that comes with having trusted Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation
Ephesians 1:14 - "[sealed with the HS] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (that's us... "the purchased-possession"... pertaining to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")




[again..."the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (US) - Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)... study this out = ) ]
 

Absolutely

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No.

The TEXT states (repeatedly), "... what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (which is not the same thing as saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

"...the churchES" are made up of both those who are actually saved believers, AND of those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. are not actually saved).

It is ONLY the ones (in the text) who are said to be "[to him that] OVERCOMETH" (7x in these 2 chpts) who are the "SAVED" persons [see also 1Jn5:4 "overcometh"]

I notice (and may the readers take note) how you deliberately LEFT OUT the following verse (which shows what I'm saying is the case):

Rev2:11 -

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."


...again, 7x "he that OVERCOMETH"/"to him that OVERCOMETH" (refers to those who are the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"... NOT referring to those who are more "worthy" Christians". NO.)

Again, "our Rapture" is NOT a "REWARD" for MORE-WORTHY Christians; Instead, it is the birthright of EVERY MEMBER OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "glorification" aspect of our salvation, which all three aspects are a PACKAGE DEAL (justification, sanctification, glorification), a "package deal" we receive upon trusting in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation.



Again, in Revelation 2-3, these letters are "[what the Spirit saith] unto the churchES" (which is NOT identical to saying, "[what the Spirit saith] unto the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--which indeed is made up of ONLY believers... not so "the churchES," see [only "he that OVERCOMETH" is the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"--study again Rev2:11, quoted above, as one evidence of this fact)





FIVE of the virgins (the "foolish") are NOT SAVED; These "10 Virgins" are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" (nor even the "FIVE [wise] VirginS")... These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [singular]" (<--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"); rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and who [of them] will ENTER that MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")



In these passages, the one "taken" is taken away IN JUDGMENT (just as in Noah's day); and the one "left" is left to enter the earthly MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day); Compare Daniel 2:35c and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" to that of Matt24:37-51 (and its parallel in Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!) THEN the meal [G347; and its occurrences elsewhere, like as found in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the EARTHLY MK age: re: G347 - "Matthew 8:11in the last two passages used figuratively of participation in future blessedness in the Messiah's kingdom." - https://biblehub.com/greek/347.htm ]



Perhaps it's *you* that needs all that (what I've pointed out) to be "changed"... to fit your "only WORTHY Christians are RAPTURED" narrative. ;)



Scripture does NOT indicate this.

Only by your wading neck-deep into Covenant Theology, as you do, can you come up with these blurred-together recipes, turning things into one big mish-mash of mush.


I do realize the "rewards" will differ (per 2Cor5:10 and 1Cor3:12-15); but again, "WE shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye" refers to what will occur at the time of "our Rapture" (which "RAPTURE" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all OTHER saints of all OTHER time periods; WE will be "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP" as "ONE BODY" at ONE singular point in time, for the PURPOSE [for one] of the "UNIONed-with Him" thing, i.e. pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" itself [not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" which is the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth; Rev19:7 DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9, which v.9 ONLY states that the "INVITING/INVITATION" [TO the SUPPER (aka earthly MK age)] has been completed[!]... not that the SUPPER has taken place yet--only the "MARRIAGE" itself will have been [UP IN Heaven], by that point ["the marriage came... the bride prepared" ("righteousness of saints" ... see also 1Cor1:30-31 "he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord," and Rom7:4, and Phil1:11 "having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which is BY MEANS OF JESUS CHRIST, unto the glory and praise of God." (as part of Paul's prayer)]);

...but again, "our Rapture" is NOT one of the "REWARDS"... but our birthright... part of the package deal that comes with having trusted Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all in "the churchES"--among which many are not actually SAVED PERSONS / not vitally connected with CHRIST--huge difference!!])

"""The TEXT states (repeatedly), "... what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (which is not the same thing as saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").
"...the churchES" are made up of both those who are actually saved believers, AND of those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. are not actually saved"""


Hard to believe i posted what goes against your belief and you add more error????
Rev2
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira
rev 3
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write
7 And to the angel of the church in philadelphia write;
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;

See that????
You are 100% wrong.
"Church"....you omitted it. And what you are proving is the word supports what i told you. Not what you are spinning.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Abs ( @Absolutely ) , of course there are 7 individual: "assembly" (of the "churchES"); this does NOT change the fact that in the "churchES," there are both "believers / saints" AND those who COME IN HIS NAME but who are not actually SAVED PERSONS.


By contrast, in "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," this is NOT so... but IT is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS.




Saying "to the angel of the church of Laodicea" (for example) does NOT EQUATE TO saying, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY".


IOW, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL / 7-yr Tribulation period / "IN THE NIGHT" [/DARK / DARKNESS] time-period / 70th Week of Daniel; There will, however, be those of "the churchES" who WILL (b/c they were not saved [had not come to faith in Christ] prior to that point in time, i.e at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

It seems you are not discerning the difference...
 

Absolutely

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QUOTE Devine watermark ;
"""FIVE of the virgins (the "foolish") are NOT SAVED; These "10 Virgins" are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" (nor even the "FIVE [wise] VirginS")... These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [singular]" (<--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"); rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and who [of them] will ENTER that MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")"""
I Aready showed you the massive error in your thinking.
You are claiming the 5 foolish are heathens that have;
Lamps (vessels containing oil (the Holy Spirit)
Oil (The Holy Spirit)
Light ...( which only believers have)
Are waiting for Jesus
Are in close fellowship with the wise virgins
Hearing the voice if angels
Are not only conscious of RUNNING OUT OF OIL; but under conviction.
Are looking to fix their dilemma
Are asking the wise to IMPART the Holy Spirit BACK INTO them
Are aware that they recieved it originally through other believers as is AUTHENTICATED in the book of acts.

You need all those components modified.
 

Absolutely

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^ Abs, of course there are 7 individual: "assembly" (of the "churchES"); this does NOT change the fact that in the "churchES," there are both "believers / saints" AND those who COME IN HIS NAME but who are not actually SAVED PERSONS.

By contrast, in "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," this is NOT so... but IT is made up of ONLY BELIEVERS.




Saying "unto the church of Laodicea" (for example) does NOT EQUATE TO saying, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY".


IOW, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will not step ONE FOOT INTO "the DOTL / 7-yr Tribulation period / "IN THE NIGHT" [/DARK / DARKNESS] time-period / 70th Week of Daniel; There will, however, be those of "the churchES" who WILL (b/c they were not saved prior to that point in time, i.e at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")

It seems you are not discerning the difference...
it says church.
You are still modifying it.
Hard to believe a guy that seems to dig in the word is doing that to WHAT IT REALLY SAYS.
 

Absolutely

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Jesus says " worthy vs unworthy.

It is beyond clear in the letters to the church 7 times.
AHEM...which would be 7 DIFFERENT bodies...uh "churches"

But even more fantastic is your total disregard for Jesus words
Rev 2
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

( according to you the church " including carnal adulterous habitual sinners is raptured automatically along with the believers walking holy)

AHEM the " Overcomers" means they have overcome sin

So no, " all the church" does not go in the rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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it says church.
You are still modifying it.
Hard to believe a guy that seems to dig in the word is doing that to WHAT IT REALLY SAYS.
So.

So does Acts 7:38, "the church IN THE WILDERNESS" (of OT times), but that also is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]). <--Pay attention to that.









Acts 7:38 and immediate context -

38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? 43Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.




Just because it uses the word "church" here ^ (Acts 7:38), does NOT make it be the same as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]... which you still do not yet comprehend);



This is how you come to the various faulty ideas of:

--millenniel exclusion theory (for any member of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY");

--loss (or forfeiture) of salvation;

--multiple-rapture theory;

--"RAPTURE" as "reward" for the more-worthy members/ Christians

--etc...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I Aready showed you the massive error in your thinking.
You are claiming the 5 foolish are heathens that have;
Lamps (vessels containing oil (the Holy Spirit)
Oil (The Holy Spirit)
Light ...( which only believers have)
Again... take a look at my posts regarding the "OIL" and the "LAMPS LIT" (in the "IN THE NIGHT" time period, aka the 7-YR TRIB); see Exodus 27:20-21 - "20 And you are to command the Israelites to bring you pure oil of pressed olives for the light, to keep the lamps burning continually. 21 In the Tent of Meeting, outside the veil that is in front of the Testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamps before the LORD from evening until morning. This is to be a permanent statute for the Israelites for the generations to come."

--"IN THE NIGHT" (aka the TRIB YRS; "the DOTL" [time-period] ARRIVES like a thief "IN THE NIGHT")... WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) will not step ONE FOOT INTO!

--see again, Lk12:35,36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!) THEN the meal [G347]... but note the "WATCHES OF THE NIGHT" in this context, as well as the "KEEP THE LAMPS BURNING" in v.35 of this context (as well as its parallel passage of Matthew 24:37-51). This AIN'T US [/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"]!! He will have been ALREADY-WED by the point in time of THIS LK12:35-44 scene (which is His RETURN to the EARTH)




[Matt24:14 / 26:13 is that which WILL BE being preached in the future TRIB YRS]
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you point me to any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Excuse me, but no, they haven't. EVER. I keep asking for at least one, but I've NEVER seen any.
`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE,....` (Rev. 3: 21)
This is a promise of a reward for faithfulness. Same thing is taught in 2 Tim 2:12.

(Father) `seated Him (Jesus) at His right hand in the heavenly places FAR ABOVE all principalities and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age BUT IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME. And He put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.`(Eph. 1: 20 - 22)

`Heaven is my throne and the earth my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)
See? Just what I said. I keep asking for verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, and I get this instead.

If these are the best verses you think show Jesus taking people to heaven, then I know there aren't any. Which I already knew.
 

cv5

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No.

The TEXT states (repeatedly), "... what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (which is not the same thing as saying "to the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

"...the churchES" are made up of both those who are actually saved believers, AND of those who come in His name but who are not actually vitally connected with Christ (i.e. are not actually saved).

It is ONLY the ones (in the text) who are said to be "[to him that] OVERCOMETH" (7x in these 2 chpts) who are the "SAVED" persons [see also 1Jn5:4 "overcometh"]

I notice (and may the readers take note) how you deliberately LEFT OUT the following verse (which shows what I'm saying is the case):

Rev2:11 -

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."


...again, 7x "he that OVERCOMETH"/"to him that OVERCOMETH" (refers to those who are the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"... NOT referring to those who are more "worthy" Christians". NO.)

Again, "our Rapture" is NOT a "REWARD" for MORE-WORTHY Christians; Instead, it is the birthright of EVERY MEMBER OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... the "glorification" aspect of our salvation, which all three aspects are a PACKAGE DEAL (justification, sanctification, glorification), a "package deal" we receive upon trusting in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation.



Again, in Revelation 2-3, these letters are "[what the Spirit saith] unto the churchES" (which is NOT identical to saying, "[what the Spirit saith] unto the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"--which indeed is made up of ONLY believers... not so "the churchES," see [only "he that OVERCOMETH" is the "SAVED" amongst "the churchES"--study again Rev2:11, quoted above, as one evidence of this fact)





FIVE of the virgins (the "foolish") are NOT SAVED; These "10 Virgins" are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" (nor even the "FIVE [wise] VirginS")... These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [singular]" (<--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"); rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and who [of them] will ENTER that MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")



In these passages, the one "taken" is taken away IN JUDGMENT (just as in Noah's day); and the one "left" is left to enter the earthly MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day); Compare Daniel 2:35c and Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" to that of Matt24:37-51 (and its parallel in Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom!) THEN the meal [G347; and its occurrences elsewhere, like as found in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the EARTHLY MK age: re: G347 - "Matthew 8:11in the last two passages used figuratively of participation in future blessedness in the Messiah's kingdom." - https://biblehub.com/greek/347.htm ]



Perhaps it's *you* that needs all that (what I've pointed out) to be "changed"... to fit your "only WORTHY Christians are RAPTURED" narrative. ;)



Scripture does NOT indicate this.

Only by your wading neck-deep into Covenant Theology, as you do, can you come up with these blurred-together recipes, turning things into one big mish-mash of mush.


I do realize the "rewards" will differ (per 2Cor5:10 and 1Cor3:12-15); but again, "WE shall ALL be changed IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye" refers to what will occur at the time of "our Rapture" (which "RAPTURE" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not to all OTHER saints of all OTHER time periods; WE will be "SNATCHED / CAUGHT UP" as "ONE BODY" at ONE singular point in time, for the PURPOSE [for one] of the "UNIONed-with Him" thing, i.e. pertaining to the "MARRIAGE" itself [not "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" which is the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth; Rev19:7 DISTINCT FROM Rev19:9, which v.9 ONLY states that the "INVITING/INVITATION" [TO the SUPPER (aka earthly MK age)] has been completed[!]... not that the SUPPER has taken place yet--only the "MARRIAGE" itself will have been [UP IN Heaven], by that point ["the marriage came... the bride prepared" ("righteousness of saints" ... see also 1Cor1:30-31 "he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord," and Rom7:4, and Phil1:11 "having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which is BY MEANS OF JESUS CHRIST, unto the glory and praise of God." (as part of Paul's prayer)]);

...but again, "our Rapture" is NOT one of the "REWARDS"... but our birthright... part of the package deal that comes with having trusted Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation (and pertaining SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [not all in "the churchES"--among which many are not actually SAVED PERSONS / not vitally connected with CHRIST--huge difference!!])
Totally agree. All of the "Be in Readiness" Parables are all Placed in a setting when Jesus returns as an already Wed bridegroom back to the earth.
Glad to have you back don't be such a stranger.....:)
 

cv5

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QUOTE Devine watermark ;
"""FIVE of the virgins (the "foolish") are NOT SAVED; These "10 Virgins" are NOT whom He is coming "TO MARRY" (nor even the "FIVE [wise] VirginS")... These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [singular]" (<--ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"); rather, they pertain to "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and who [of them] will ENTER that MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")"""
I Aready showed you the massive error in your thinking.
You are claiming the 5 foolish are heathens that have;
Lamps (vessels containing oil (the Holy Spirit)
Oil (The Holy Spirit)
Light ...( which only believers have)
Are waiting for Jesus
Are in close fellowship with the wise virgins
Hearing the voice if angels
Are not only conscious of RUNNING OUT OF OIL; but under conviction.
Are looking to fix their dilemma
Are asking the wise to IMPART the Holy Spirit BACK INTO them
Are aware that they recieved it originally through other believers as is AUTHENTICATED in the book of acts.

You need all those components modified.
I think I can help you out Abs.
Regarding the parable of the 10 virgins:

The Groom has already come as a thief and snatched his Bride away to his Father's house. The rapture has already happened. The bride and groom are now at the Father's house for a seven day honeymoon.

These 10 virgins do NOT accompany the Bride and Groom back to the Father's house. There is a time delay as word gets around the villiage and these 10 bridesmaids DISCOVER that the Bride has been snatched away. Their job however is to go around the village and announce to everyone the wedding (banquet supper festivities) is coming.

Matthew 25:1 "Then" aka "At that time".......what time?
The time of the tribulation Jesus has just laid out in the Olivet discourse.

Hope that helps. I get just as confused about this parable as anyone else and I finally hit on some good information. Opinions vary but I think this is the best answer to all the outstanding questions.
 

awelight

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The Letters to the seven churches are for every Believer in Christ = You must overcome just as Christ overcame.

There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture = it is a lie from satan = reject it and embrace the Word of God.

Revelation Begins and Ends with the SAME message to the Believer.

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near. Rev 1:1-3


Then the angel said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent His angel to show His servants what must soon take place.”
“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book."
Rev 22:6-7

We are included in chapters 1 thru 22
I realize this response comes late but have been very busy.

You keep saying that there is no mention of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Revelation. However, we have it implied in the following:

Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1) I will keep thee from the hour of trial - "KEEP", in the Greek, means to "withhold from" or "protect". This could be construed as meaning to "keep one safe in the midst of" but it is followed by the Greek preposition "ek", which means "out of" or "out from"

2) Which is to come - proves the "trial" is still future.

3) Upon the whole world - Shows the extent of this trial. No local trials can be thought of as filling this statement. The use of such prophetic language as: "upon the whole world", can only mean the "Great Tribulation" time period because it is to "try them that dwell on the Earth.

It should be noted here, that in the first part of this verse, it states: "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience..." The word "because" takes us back to what was previously said and the words "did keep", are not in the present tense, they are in the past tense. So the Lord speaks as if their faithfulness was a "done deal". Therefore, He wants them to see that his promise is also a done deal and fully reliable, while it's completion is yet future.

In conclusion, this verse proves that a group of saved people (The True Assembly), are being contrasted with those that "dwell on the earth" Additionally, this contrast is between those who will be "kept from" the hour of trial and those who will not. The purpose of this "hour of trial", is to test those who still dwell on the earth. There is no reason to believe that the Assembly, which Christ is building, will go through this "hour of trial", when none of it's former members, who are a part of the assembly, ever had such a trial. Why would the Lord, try the later Saints, in this manner? God is pouring out His Wrath upon the World. He has appointed 144,000 to be His witness during the Tribulation days. Why does the Assembly need to be present and if it is, then why the 144,000? Also, why is the focus so heavily upon Israel?
 

cv5

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FreeGrace2 said:
Could you point me to any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

Excuse me, but no, they haven't. EVER. I keep asking for at least one, but I've NEVER seen any.

This is a promise of a reward for faithfulness. Same thing is taught in 2 Tim 2:12.


See? Just what I said. I keep asking for verses showing Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, and I get this instead.

If these are the best verses you think show Jesus taking people to heaven, then I know there aren't any. Which I already knew.
Here is a good verse for you.....

Matt 13:11
He answered and said to them, "because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it has not been given."
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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I realize this response comes late but have been very busy.

You keep saying that there is no mention of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture in Revelation. However, we have it implied in the following:

Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1) I will keep thee from the hour of trial - "KEEP", in the Greek, means to "withhold from" or "protect". This could be construed as meaning to "keep one safe in the midst of" but it is followed by the Greek preposition "ek", which means "out of" or "out from"

2) Which is to come - proves the "trial" is still future.

3) Upon the whole world - Shows the extent of this trial. No local trials can be thought of as filling this statement. The use of such prophetic language as: "upon the whole world", can only mean the "Great Tribulation" time period because it is to "try them that dwell on the Earth.

It should be noted here, that in the first part of this verse, it states: "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience..." The word "because" takes us back to what was previously said and the words "did keep", are not in the present tense, they are in the past tense. So the Lord speaks as if their faithfulness was a "done deal". Therefore, He wants them to see that his promise is also a done deal and fully reliable, while it's completion is yet future.

In conclusion, this verse proves that a group of saved people (The True Assembly), are being contrasted with those that "dwell on the earth" Additionally, this contrast is between those who will be "kept from" the hour of trial and those who will not. The purpose of this "hour of trial", is to test those who still dwell on the earth. Why would the Lord, try the later Saints, in this manner? God is pouring out His Wrath upon the World. He has appointed 144,000 to be His witness during the Tribulation days. Why does the Assembly need to be present and if it is, then why the 144,000? Also, why is the focus so heavily upon Israel?
"There is no reason to believe that the Assembly, which Christ is building, will go through this "hour of trial", when none of it's former members, who are a part of the assembly, ever had such a trial."

My thoughts exactly......;)