The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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Dec 29, 2021
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ok, you really want to go chronologically ACCORDING to those verses?we have jesus " coming as a thief", obviously referring to the rapture.

However, according to that strict chronology the rapture is at the 6th seal.
THEN THE SEVENTH LATER.

Rev 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

SO ...you presented a mid trib model now?
Look at these 3 Verses you posted:

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


1. Second Coming/Gathering = Verse 15

2. Verse 16 Battle at Armageddon

3. Verse 17 = This is Satan being defeated and Bound for 1,000 years before Judgement Day.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Then Prove at the Second Coming, those Gathered, are 100% ALIVE!
you have yet to prove anything.
You are all over the page and can not figure out what you believe.

And yet you order us around to "prove" what you could not possibly process with all that gobbledygook of "doctrine" floating around in your head you think is valid.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Look at these 3 Verses you posted:

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


1. Second Coming/Gathering = Verse 15

2. Verse 16 Battle at Armageddon

3. Verse 17 = This is Satan being defeated and Bound for 1,000 years before Judgement Day.
Psssst...that is what pretribbers believe.

We believe exactly that!

You really do not understand the pretrib rapture doctrine.
.....and are oblivious you just presented 2 comings.

Rapture
Then the return to armageddon
Then satan bound.

Thanks!
 
Dec 29, 2021
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Psssst...that is what pretribbers believe.

We believe exactly that!

You really do not understand the pretrib rapture doctrine.
.....and are oblivious you just presented 2 comings.

Rapture
Then the return to armageddon
Then satan bound.

Thanks!
I know that is what you believe because I was taught that as a child growing up in church. But, thankfully I became to a place in life where I allowed the Holy Spirit to give me translation over man made idealism.
 

FreeGrace2

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Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Speaking of which, what about the opinion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, but there is zero evidence from Scripture showing that?
Do you get all that omission dynamic naturally ,or do you intentionally work at it?
Since there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, of course the "omission dynamic" naturally falls on YOU.

Yes of course.
Thanks for agreeing!

If you omit and pull in your selective verses....POOOOF! You can easily make it up.
What am I making up? 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5 very clearly shows WHEN the singular resurrection of believers will occur; at the Second Advent.

Just convince yourself and go for it.
I'm convinced by what the Bible says. Unlike yourself.

I am not here to play your games.
?? Then why is that ALL you SEEM TO DO?
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
If you could only provide some clear evidence that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, you'd have a point.

Not until then.
There is no "point" to make that you would take to heart.
You tirelessly troll me with nonsense.
Asking for biblical evidence is not trolling. It is searching for answers for your opinions. And you can't provide any evidence for them.

You have your deal which is not in any way successfully defended by you
This is quite delirious since there are 2 verses that absolutely SHOW when believers receive glorified bodies.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him (resurrection/rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

And you have NEVER even tried to refute either verse, by showing they teach something else.
 

kleronomos

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726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT TAKE PLACE AT HARPAZO AKA RAPTURE


Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.


2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

NOTICE HOW VERY CLEARLY THE WORDS OF GOD ANSWER THE QUESTION OF 'WHERE' IN THE ABOVE VERSE




1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

NOTICE HOW VERY CLEARLY THE WORDS OF GOD ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHERE IN THE ABOVE VERSE.

NOTICE THIS VERSE IT DOES NOT SAY 'INTO PARADISE'.


THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.

ANYONE CLAIMING 'IT IS INTO PARADISE' IS 1000% ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD.
what is written CLEARLY SHOWS THAT JESUS IS RETURNING FOR THE DAY OF VENGEANCE AND

ALL 'UNSEEN' comings COME at death of the flesh,
because WE are NEVER to SEE DEATH and that is why this word is not used

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


NOTICE

ONLY ONE VERSE 'INTO PARADISE' ,
ONLY ONE VERSE UNTO GOD, AND
ONE VERSE INTO OUR ATMOSPHERE.


To ascribe 'being taken to EITHER 'paradise or unto God' , FROM VERSE 4:17 IS A LIE

AS GODS WORDS ARE SPECIFIC AND TELL US IT IS INTO THE AIR.

Obviously when God MEANS 'paradise', He SAYS paradise, when God MEANS 'unto God' He SAYS unto God. When God means 'in the air' He says 'in the air'.

WHEN MAN DOESN'T LIKE IT, THEY FIND A WAY TO TWIST IT, AND RESORT TO HATH GOD SAID?

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN


Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of his father David:
33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



1Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in His times He shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Speaking of which, what about the opinion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, but there is zero evidence from Scripture showing that?
Do you ever trade doctrine back and forth?
( present what YOUR position is and challenge rebuttal?)
I have no idea what you might mean by "trading doctrine back and forth". Sounds kinda weird.

However, I HAVE presented my position and I DO challenge rebuttal. And you haven't rebutted anything. Long on criticism but very short on defense/rebuttal.

All i see from you is "prove it".
And all I see from you is that you CAN'T prove it. Your claims are therefore EMPTY.

Then we both know 50 verses are going to be met with some scoffing "prove it further".
I don't need 50. lol. And you don't have 50. But I have 2 very clear verses on WHEN the resurrection/rapture will occur.

I am 100% ready to mix it up with ANYONE ANYTIME.
No you are not. Unless by "mix it up" you only mean disagree with someone and repeatedly throw sarcasm at them.

But it they are playing games...go do it somewhere else.
Why do you keep playing games then?
 

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
If you could only provide some clear evidence that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, you'd have a point.

Not until then.
So where exactly is John 14 the Father's house located? Brooklyn?
This is just so laughable. Why do you keep misunderstanding what Jesus was telling His disciples?

John 14-
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

When did Jesus say these words? BEFORE He was crucified and then ascended to heaven. Got it? And He DID go there when He was ascended. So v.2 has already been fulfilled completely.

Red words in v.3 is a first class condition, meaning He WILL do that. And He did that.

In fact, the red words are the ASSURANCE of the 11 disciples' eternal security.

It seems you understand the blue words to mean that Jesus will come and take all of the 11 or maybe even all of the living believers on earth when He comes and takes them all back to heaven.

Well, that would be quite wrong. The verse is real clear. "I will come back and take you" clearly refers to the Second Advent. When He comes back and takes ALL believers to be with Him wherever He is.

To use these verses to argue for a pretrib rapture is ADDING to Scripture. It is called eisegesis. A no-no.
 

kleronomos

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Well, that would be quite wrong. The verse is real clear. "I will come back and take you" clearly refers to the Second Advent. When He comes back and takes ALL believers to be with Him wherever He is.

To use these verses to argue for a pretrib rapture is ADDING to Scripture. It is called eisegesis. A no-no.

It isn't about pre trib rapture AND IT ISN'T ABOUT THE SECOND ADVENT EITHER.


IT IS ABOUT THE WORK ON THE CROSS AND WHAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED FOR THE 'SAVED'.

Saved from WHAT? DEATH.

it's about whether or not DEATH is reigning OVER THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION or IF GRACE is reigning over those who have received the gift of SALVATION.


We KNOW DEATH reigns over the UNSAVED don't we. They ARE WITH THEIR SIN. THEY never DIED with Christ. They were never raised with Christ. They were never washed clean of sin. They are with spot and with blemish and they CHOOSE DEATH.

WE have chosen LIFE. We have died with Christ. We have been raised with Christ. We have received the gift of Salvation, eternal life. We have no spot. We have no blemish. We have been washed clean. We are THEREFORE RAISED WITH HIS DEAD BODY. WE NEVER SEE DEATH. WE RETURN WITH CHRIST.

EITHER you believe that DEATH is more powerful than CHRIST or you don't.

EITHER you believe He went to heaven or you don't.

Either you believe He defeated death or you don't.

You either believe that He went to prepare a place for us or you don't

You either believe that He will come RECEIVE us or you don't

You either believe that we will be with Him until He (and us along with Him) returns or you don't.

BUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE JOHN 14 SAYS or doesn't IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PRE TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH or 2nd Advent.


BUT HERE WE ARE TOLD THE WORDS IN WHICH WE ARE TO COMFORT ONE ANOTHER AND WE DON'T FIND COMFORT IN DEATH, EVER.


1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more

1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you

1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DIE/SLEEP.


1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

DO WE believe that Jesus DIED AND ROSE AGAIN? yes we do.

Do WE believe that JUST LIKE Jesus who died and rose again THAT THOSE WHO SLEEP (the even so them) died AND ROSE AGAIN?


THERE WILL BE SOULS ALIVE AND WALKING ON THE EARTH ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL THE RETURN OF CHRIST

NONE OF THOSE 'even the alive and remaining'

WILL PREVENT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED from INSTANTLY BEING WITH THE LORD.

Just like the 'alive and remaining
' will be CHANGED IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, and instantly be with the Lord, so to the ones who fall asleep/die.

(that is all it takes to PUT ON OUR NEW BODY TO BE WITH THE LORD.)

DOESN'T MATTER IF THE FLESH VESSEL HAS TAKEN ITS LAST BREATH or if the vessel is still breathing, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE
ALL ARE CHANGED

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,

that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord


shall not prevent them which are asleep


FROM INSTANTLY GOING TO BE WITH THE LORD.
 

kleronomos

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PRETEND we ARE PETER when JESUS SAYS

Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek Me and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come

so now I say to you

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another,
as I have loved you that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Simon Peter said unto Him,
"Lord, whither goest thou?"

Jesus answered him,
"Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards".

(NOT NOW - BUT WILL FOLLOW - AFTERWARDS) (not meet Him on the RETURN)

Peter said unto him,
"Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake".

Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

In my Father's house are many mansions
if it were not so, I would have told you.

(CHRIST WILL BE ASCENDING TO THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER)
I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you

(HERE COMES THE AFTERWARDS)
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself

(when death, the NOW has come him)
that where I am, there ye may be also.

WE ALL KNOW CHRIST ASCENDED TO HEAVEN. IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN UPON DEATH THEN HOW ARE WE FOLLOWING AFTER HIM?

IF WE ARE WAITING TO BE RESURRECTED WHEN HE RETURNS THAT WOULD MEAN WE NEVER DID FOLLOW HIM BUT INSTEAD WAITED FOR HIS RETURN.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE

AGAIN, IF WE DON'T GO TO HEAVEN AND WAIT INSTEAD FOR HIS RETURN THEN THIS ALSO BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE

NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER but by me.



We are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. Our flesh body/EARTHEN VESSEL must die
(not our spirit, not our souls and not our heavenly body)

as in ALL die in Adam

BUT WE are not HELD with the unsaved in death because

WE DIED AND WERE RAISED WITH HIS BODY. and the graves were opened. oh death where is thy sting?



2 Timothy 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.



HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE FROM A FLESH BODY TO A SPIRITUAL ONE?
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.



BUT ALL WILL BE CHANGED.
 

kleronomos

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Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thine help.

10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?

11 I gave thee a king in Mine anger, and took him away in My wrath.

12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

THAT IS AT HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION


THIS IS AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM


Isaiah 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.





Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, Who hath raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HATH HE QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM , having forgiven you all trespasses
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

4806. suzóopoieó
Strong's Concordance
suzóopoieó: to make alive together with
Original Word: συζωοποιέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: suzóopoieó
Phonetic Spelling: (sood-zo-op-oy-eh'-o)
Definition: to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, AND MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS
7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.




Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore He saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED UP ON HIGH HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE , and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 

FreeGrace2

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It isn't about pre trib rapture AND IT ISN'T ABOUT THE SECOND ADVENT EITHER.
Could you explain what " I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." is referring to? Thanks.

IT IS ABOUT THE WORK ON THE CROSS AND WHAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED FOR THE 'SAVED'.

Saved from WHAT? DEATH.

it's about whether or not DEATH is reigning OVER THOSE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION or IF GRACE is reigning over those who have received the gift of SALVATION.

It seems clear that Jesus was assurring His 11 disciples that they HAVE a place in heaven. He sure didn't want to leave them wondering.
 

ewq1938

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Could you explain what " I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." is referring to?

That's not the best translation.


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!
 

kleronomos

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Dec 15, 2021
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So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
WHAT IS THE SUBJECT?

CAN I FOLLOW YOU? NOT NOW, BUT LATER. WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO BE? HEAVEN. I'LL COME MEET YOU WHEN YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY AND I WILL BRING YOU TO THE FATHER.

YET, when Christ is returning

We FOLLOW Him back TO EARTH when He does DESCEND IN LIKE MANNER AS THEY SAW HIM LEAVE, as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. In a cloud. With saints and angels and martyrs THE DAY OF VENGENCE. THE LORDS DAY. The Millennium. The 1000 years as a day. The 1000 years Satan is bound. The day as 1000 years.

So Christ isn't speaking ABOUT HIM DESCENDING He is speaking about meeting us when we RISE. No where does it speak of Christ DESCENDING, Remember, NO ONE COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY CHRIST.


So WHERE this 'CHRIST IS LEAVING HEAVEN' can ONLY COME FROM some XXXXX doctrine that needs to have it some other way, OTHER THAN WHAT IS WRITTEN.

FOLLOW AFTER. TO BE WHERE HE IS. COMETH TO THE FATHER. Our Father WHICH ART IN HEAVEN.
Common sense should be applied to the words of God.

What is the struggle?


Spiritually, Heavenly.

1 In the house of the Father of Me mansions many there are if now not would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

2 And if I go 4198 and prepare 2090 a place 5117 for you again I am coming and will receive 3880 you to Myself that where am I also you may be

4198. poreuomai ►
Strong's Concordance
poreuomai: to go
Original Word: πορεύομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poreuomai
Phonetic Spelling: (por-yoo'-om-ahee)
Definition: to go
Usage: I travel, journey, go, die.
HELPS Word-studies
4198 poreúomai (from poros, "passageway") – properly, to transport, moving something from one destination (port) to another; (figuratively) to go or depart, emphasizing the personal meaning which is attached to reaching the particular destination.

2090 hetoimázō – prepare, make (made) ready. See 2092 (hetoimos).

5117. topos
Strong's Concordance
topos: a place
Original Word: τόπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: topos
Phonetic Spelling: (top'-os)
Definition: a place
Usage: a place, region, seat; an opportunity.

2064. erchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
erchomai: to come, go
Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Definition: to come, go
Usage: I come, go.

3880. paralambanó ►
Strong's Concordance
paralambanó: to receive from
Original Word: παραλαμβάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paralambanó
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-am-ban'-o)
Definition: to receive from
Usage: I take from, receive from, or: I take to, receive (apparently not used of money), admit, acknowledge; I take with me.


no snatching away, no descending, no horses, no armies, no clouds, no return, no trumpets,



1 Corinthians 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

DOES THAT MEAN

1. ONE DAY, SOME DAY, THERE EVENTUALLY WILL BE A RESURRECTION? no
2. THERE IS GOING TO BE A RESURRECTION BUT ONLY SOMEDAY? no
3. THERE WILL BE IN THE FUTURE SOME TIME A RESURRECTION? no
4. THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY no
5. THERE ISN'T A RESURRECTION NOW, NOW BUT THERE WILL BE LATER no
6. THERE IS A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD PRESENTLY yes


13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

1Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
5,754
775
113
That's not the best translation.


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!
(y)
 
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