The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[John146]

FreeGrace2 said:
What verse that mentions gleanings indicates a separate resurrection of the saved, in your view? Thanks.

There is no verse in Rev 20 that mentions a "gleaning". I need to see a verse where the word is related to the resurrecton. All you're doing is assigning the word to something in Rev 20. In fact, the singular resurrection of believers is specifically mentioned in 20:5 and is called the FIRST resurrection. There will be another one; for unbelievers at the end of the 1,000 year reign.

If the Bible does NOT use "gleanings" in relation to the believer's resurrection, that's because there isn't a gleaning.

And the Bible DOES teach that there will be only one resurrection of believers, as seen in these verses:
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

These verses all refer to a singular resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse still shows only one for believers. Jesus received a glorified body before anyone else, hence that resurrection is "firstfruits", and then "when He comes", a singular event, "those who belong to Him", obviously meaning ALL believers.

Also, it was the resurrection of Jesus that makes possible the singular resurrection of all believers.

If Jesus wasn't resurrected, then NO ONE else would be either. 1 Cor 15 (all of it).

Study the phrases "resurrection from the dead" and "resurrection of the dead" and you'll find the answer. There is a difference.

 

[Absolutely]

The correct word is "corrects" his posts.


It's been explained many times, and with many verses, all of which SAY what I believe. But one needs to open their eyes to see.


Because you keep your eyes closed and learn nothing.


It is surely yours and NOT the Bible's.

....and still no mention of you pointing to a post ,or laying out what you believe.

Thats fine.

Does not matter at all

 

[FreeGrace2]

Study the phrases "resurrection from the dead" and "resurrection of the dead" and you'll find the answer. There is a difference.

I believe the only real issue regarding resurrection is whether the person receives a glorified body, as Paul describes in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. And what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:23 about the imperishable body (glorified body).

We read about several people during Jesus' ministry who were raised from the dead. Also, many believers came out of their graves at the crucifixion. Not only that, we have evidence of people being raised from the dead in the OT: Heb 11:35, which is a reference to 1 Kings 17:22-23, where Elijah raised a dead to life and presented him back to her.

So, the question is: did any of these receive an imperishable body when they came back to life? The answer is "no" because there is no mention of such.

And, since the Bible teaches that the singular resurrection of all the saved will occur "when He comes", from 1 Cor 15:23, and Paul describes the resurrection (glorified body) of Jesus is the first one (first fruits), we know that none of the people who came back to life received a glorified body, since all of them died and came back BEFORE or WHEN Jesus was crucified. And Jesus didn't appear on earth in His glorified imperishable body until 3 days after the crucifixion.

If there is a difference between "from the dead" and "of the dead", it's probably that "from the dead" refers to those who came back to life and died again, whereas "of the dead" would refer to the saints, regarding that resurrection. That term is also used for ALL the unbelievers who will be raised to life for the GWT judgment, and they certainly don't receive a glorified body, obviously.

 

[Absolutely]

What a devious trick!! Sure, leave out v.5 why don't you. Oh yeah, you did that.

So, let's fix your dishonesty right now.

New International Version
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

New Living Translation
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

English Standard Version
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Berean Study Bible
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Berean Literal Bible
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years shall have been completed. This is the first resurrection.

King James Bible
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New King James Version
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New American Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1995
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1977
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Amplified Bible
The rest of the dead [the non-believers] did not come to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Christian Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

American Standard Version
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this is the first resurrection.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

English Revised Version
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

International Standard Version
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.

Literal Standard Version
and the rest of the dead did not live again until the one thousand years may be completed; this [is] the first resurrection.

NET Bible
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

New Heart English Bible
The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Weymouth New Testament
No one else who was dead rose to Life until the thousand years were at an end. This is the First Resurrection.

World English Bible
The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Young's Literal Translation
and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Now that I've FIXED the dishonesty, can you finally ADMIT that the resurrection of the martyrs is "the FIRST resurrection"?


When you stop before v.5, sure, you'd think so.


There are only 2 total. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15 actually says so clearly. Have you read it yet?


huh? So you really DON'T know "when He comes"?? When do you think the Second coming will occur then, if not after the Trib.
It is WELL AFTER Armageddon.

You completely reframed it.
Unbelievable

[/QUOTE]
Ok.
You are right

The ONLY ONES resurrected are those martyred by the antichrist as you have pointed out.

No other martyrs of the early church or from the catholics etc are included.
Nor are those believers that died if other causes for the past 1900 years.
Remember only rev 20 is the first resurrection of those beheaded by the ac.
( after armageddon and after the second coming on horses as Rev 20 depicts.)

Have it your way.
That is exactly what you are teaching.

 

[FreeGrace2]

....and still no mention of you pointing to a post ,or laying out what you believe.

Those who actually follow this thread know that your statement is quite untrue.

Thats fine.

No, it's not fine at all.

Does not matter at all

It matters a great deal. Seems you don't have a grasp of the issue between truth and lies.

So it matters very much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok.
You are right

The ONLY ONES resurrected are those martyred by the antichrist as you have pointed out.

Again, the error in your claim is that the words "only ones" doesn't occur in ch 20 anywhere. You are just adding what you presume, or are just making up.

No other martyrs of the early church or from the catholics etc are included.
Nor are those believers that died if other causes for the past 1900 years.
Remember only rev 20 is the first resurrection of those beheaded by the ac.
( after armageddon and after the second coming on horses as Rev 20 depicts.)

Have it your way.
That is exactly what you are teaching.

All of your premises here are based on your ADDING TO my words, which is dishonest.

The fact that John didn't mention others is immaterial. We know that ALL believers from Adam on are included because of all the verses I have shared that clearly speak of a single resurrection of the saved.

I've asked you to exegete the verses I've quoted over and over, but to no avail.

It seem quite obvious that you know that you can't do that and maintain your own pov.

So you just keep making up the story that I haven't shared my views. Yeah, sure.

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible speaks of the resurrection in the singular. There are not stages. Only one.

The "firstfruits" is jesus Himself, who was the FIRST human to receive a glorified body. All the rest of the saved receive their glorified bodies "when He comes", as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

And Rev 20:5 very plainly describes the resurrection of trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, so that's when ALL believers will get a glorified body.

Yes, rather impressive, huh.


Huh? The Bible SAYS it. Why do you rejecrt what the Bible says?


Actually, ALL believers from Adam forward will have to wait until "when He comes" at the end of the Trib, since the Bible says so.

"""Actually, ALL believers from Adam forward will have to wait until "when He comes" at the end of the Trib, since the Bible says so""".

If you are referring to rev 20 ,then that is AFTER ARMAGEDDON AND AFTER THE RETURN ON HORSES with the saints.

 

[Absolutely]

Those who actually follow this thread know that your statement is quite untrue.


No, it's not fine at all.


It matters a great deal. Seems you don't have a grasp of the issue between truth and lies.

So it matters very much.

Oh ok

No problem at all

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Actually, ALL believers from Adam forward will have to wait until "when He comes" at the end of the Trib, since the Bible says so""".

If you are referring to rev 20 ,then that is AFTER ARMAGEDDON AND AFTER THE RETURN ON HORSES with the saints.

Wow, seems you have at least read one of my posts.

Why don't you try to prove from Scripture there is more than 1 resurrection of the saints, who receive glorified bodies?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh ok

No problem at all

Apparently error is no problem at all to you.

 

[Absolutely]

Again, the error in your claim is that the words "only ones" doesn't occur in ch 20 anywhere. You are just adding what you presume, or are just making up.


All of your premises here are based on your ADDING TO my words, which is dishonest.

The fact that John didn't mention others is immaterial. We know that ALL believers from Adam on are included because of all the verses I have shared that clearly speak of a single resurrection of the saved.

I've asked you to exegete the verses I've quoted over and over, but to no avail.

It seem quite obvious that you know that you can't do that and maintain your own pov.

So you just keep making up the story that I haven't shared my views. Yeah, sure.

Rev 20 is what you posted.
You say with all authority that that is the first resurrection.

 

[Absolutely]

Apparently error is no problem at all to you.

ok
No problem
I have no problem with any perception you have of me.

None

 

[John146]

I believe the only real issue regarding resurrection is whether the person receives a glorified body, as Paul describes in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. And what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:23 about the imperishable body (glorified body).

We read about several people during Jesus' ministry who were raised from the dead. Also, many believers came out of their graves at the crucifixion. Not only that, we have evidence of people being raised from the dead in the OT: Heb 11:35, which is a reference to 1 Kings 17:22-23, where Elijah raised a dead to life and presented him back to her.

So, the question is: did any of these receive an imperishable body when they came back to life? The answer is "no" because there is no mention of such.

And, since the Bible teaches that the singular resurrection of all the saved will occur "when He comes", from 1 Cor 15:23, and Paul describes the resurrection (glorified body) of Jesus is the first one (first fruits), we know that none of the people who came back to life received a glorified body, since all of them died and came back BEFORE or WHEN Jesus was crucified. And Jesus didn't appear on earth in His glorified imperishable body until 3 days after the crucifixion.

If there is a difference between "from the dead" and "of the dead", it's probably that "from the dead" refers to those who came back to life and died again, whereas "of the dead" would refer to the saints, regarding that resurrection. That term is also used for ALL the unbelievers who will be raised to life for the GWT judgment, and they certainly don't receive a glorified body, obviously.

The resurrection OF the dead is at the end at the great white throne judgment. The resurrection FROM the dead refers to Jesus and His body.

 

[Absolutely]

Again, the error in your claim is that the words "only ones" doesn't occur in ch 20 anywhere. You are just adding what you presume, or are just making up.


All of your premises here are based on your ADDING TO my words, which is dishonest.

The fact that John didn't mention others is immaterial. We know that ALL believers from Adam on are included because of all the verses I have shared that clearly speak of a single resurrection of the saved.

I've asked you to exegete the verses I've quoted over and over, but to no avail.

It seem quite obvious that you know that you can't do that and maintain your own pov.

So you just keep making up the story that I haven't shared my views. Yeah, sure.

"""The fact that John didn't mention others is immaterial. We know that ALL believers from Adam on are included because of all the verses I have shared that clearly speak of a single resurrection of the saved."""

Maybe that is progress.
So you agree rev 20 can not be the first resurrection.
Only part...( and that resurrection mentioned in rev 20 has no mention of when. As it refers to them as ALREADY RESURRECTED)
Not when at all. Nothing about when.

And the timeframe is way off.
( which is after Armageddon and after the return on white horses. in fact we do not see any Resurrection at the return on white horses . none in the Bible)

 

[Absolutely]

Those who actually follow this thread know that your statement is quite untrue.


No, it's not fine at all.


It matters a great deal. Seems you don't have a grasp of the issue between truth and lies.

So it matters very much.

I never said you didn't

I only asked you to point me to it

Nevermind.

I don't need it

 

[Absolutely]

What a devious trick!! Sure, leave out v.5 why don't you. Oh yeah, you did that.

So, let's fix your dishonesty right now.

New International Version
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

New Living Translation
This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

English Standard Version
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Berean Study Bible
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Berean Literal Bible
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years shall have been completed. This is the first resurrection.

King James Bible
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New King James Version
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

New American Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1995
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

NASB 1977
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Amplified Bible
The rest of the dead [the non-believers] did not come to life again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Christian Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

American Standard Version
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this is the first resurrection.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

English Revised Version
The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

International Standard Version
The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were over. This is the first resurrection.

Literal Standard Version
and the rest of the dead did not live again until the one thousand years may be completed; this [is] the first resurrection.

NET Bible
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

New Heart English Bible
The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Weymouth New Testament
No one else who was dead rose to Life until the thousand years were at an end. This is the First Resurrection.

World English Bible
The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Young's Literal Translation
and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.

Now that I've FIXED the dishonesty, can you finally ADMIT that the resurrection of the martyrs is "the FIRST resurrection"?


When you stop before v.5, sure, you'd think so.


There are only 2 total. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15 actually says so clearly. Have you read it yet?


huh? So you really DON'T know "when He comes"?? When do you think the Second coming will occur then, if not after the Trib.
It is WELL AFTER Armageddon.

You completely reframed it.
Unbelievable

[/QUOTE]
Yes
We agree
The rest of the dead are resurrected at the gwtj.

Thanks for bringing that to light.

Great point

 

[Absolutely]

Again, the error in your claim is that the words "only ones" doesn't occur in ch 20 anywhere. You are just adding what you presume, or are just making up.


All of your premises here are based on your ADDING TO my words, which is dishonest.

The fact that John didn't mention others is immaterial. We know that ALL believers from Adam on are included because of all the verses I have shared that clearly speak of a single resurrection of the saved.

I've asked you to exegete the verses I've quoted over and over, but to no avail.

It seem quite obvious that you know that you can't do that and maintain your own pov.

So you just keep making up the story that I haven't shared my views. Yeah, sure.

then we agree rev 20 is not the first resurrection as it has been previously implied.

.....Can not be, as you pointed out.
Only says they are resurrected some time in the past.
And we agree they are only part of the resurrection.

 

[Absolutely]

then we agree rev 20 is not the first resurrection as it has been previously implied.

.....Can not be, as you pointed out.
Only says they are resurrected some time in the past.
And we agree they are only part of the resurrection.

We see that the resurrection of 1thes 4 can not be the resurrection of Rev 20.

Good point fg.!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 20 is what you posted.
You say with all authority that that is the first resurrection.

I say with ALL the authority of the Bible that the resurrection of the martyrs IS the first resurrection. v.5 plainly says so. I gave you many many verses that say that. But you didn't include v.5 in your comments about Rev 20.

The second, or NEXT, resurrection will be of the unsaved, who will be summoned to the GWT.

 

[FreeGrace2]

ok
No problem
I have no problem with any perception you have of me.

None

It's sad that your perception of Scripture is skewed.