The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[kleronomos]

1. That issue has already been addressed in Scripture. But you have failed to see that the divine Restrainer -- the Holy Spirit -- will be "taken out of the way" so that the Antichrist may take full control of the world (2 Thessalonians 2). Where else would He go except back to Heaven, from where He was sent to earth on the day of Pentecost, AD 30?

Seriously, that is why God sent the TWO WITNESSES with supernatural powers? HAVE THEY NO HOLY SPIRIT? WHAT ABOUT THESE 'TRIB SAINTS' NO HOLY SPIRIT THERE EITHER?

WASN'T IT GOD WHO sent him, gave him the horse and the crown and the cheap bow?

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE God TELLS US TO PUT ON the gospel armor, TELLS US IT IS ALL ENDING WITH A WAR AND THAT ALL THOSE SOLDIERS HE HAS BEEN GIVING WISDOM AND KNOWLEGE TO ARE GOING TO DO NOTHING TO HELP?

I realize you don't want to be ONE OF GODS PEOPLE in anything but promises and rewards

but the people you were grafted into ARE GOING TO BE HERE

WHAT IF you are actually of the seed line HOUSE OF ISRAEL, ONE OF THE LOST SHEEP CHRIST CAME FOR yourself,

then ACCORDING to you, YOU WOULDN'T BE ELIGIBLE TO BE A PART of the 'church' PRE TRIB anyhow WOULD YOU?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Who puts on armor and why?

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.
(NOT HIS TRAVEL ABILITIES)
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.Z

IS THIS WRITTEN TO THOSE WHO AREN'T SAVED YET?

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

MAYBE IT WOULD BE EASIER IF YOU JUST TOLD ME WHAT VERSES DO APPLY TO YOU AS ALL OF THEM SEEM TO BE GOING TO THOSE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN SAVED.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

THIS WHOLE SECTION MUST NOT BE FOR THE CHURCH AT ALL

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,



GOD IS CHANGING EVERYTHING HE DOES AND EVERYTHING HE HAS SET FORTH TO PERFECT US AND EVERYTHING HE HAS SAID SO THAT FOR ONE GENERATION AND ONE GENERATION ONLY

HE IS GOING TO WAIT UNTIL THE WAR IN HEAVEN IS OVER AND RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR ON EARTH STARTS TAKE THIS ONE GROUP

THAT CONSISTS OF a PART OF THE CHURCH, a PART OF THE SAINTS, a PART OF WHAT EVER from the churches WE KNOW HE WAS GOING TO either TAKEAWAY THEIR CANDLE STICK OR SPIT OUT OF HIS MOUTH or WHO WERE TEACHING THINGS HE HATES etc.

and with no proving what so ever

HE IS GOING TO TAKE TO HEAVEN and make them the 24 ELDERS we saw SITTING ON THE THRONES IN HEAVEN OVER TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO?



Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[cv5]

Rev 13
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe,

Is this verse look like God wrath?

As has been explained earlier.....the Church per se is no longer upon the earth and it is not experiencing God's wrath.

ALL those STILL dwelling upon the earth are suffering the effects of God's wrath. One way or another. Just the psychological trauma alone is devastating.....not to mention the horrific devastations of the biosphere.

Unfortunately Israel and tribulation saints are also suffering the effects of Satan's wrath along with everything else.....

Everyone is suffering both the elect and the condemned. The 144,000 Israelites, the beast, the false prophet, the unbelievers, the tribulation saints, Israel......everyone.

 

[cv5]

Rev 13
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe,

Is this verse look like God wrath?

I would suggest that you do a search on the term "wrath" in the book of Revelation. Fully 11 times THIS PECULIAR wrath is stated as the "wrath of God" or the "wrath of the Lamb". Starting in Revelation 6:16.

Are you aware of this fact? Please check for yourself it is very easy to do so.

 

[Jackson123]

As has been explained earlier.....the Church per se is no longer upon the earth and it is not experiencing God's wrath.

ALL those STILL dwelling upon the earth are suffering the effects of God's wrath. One way or another. Just the psychological trauma alone is devastating.....not to mention the horrific devastations of the biosphere.

Unfortunately Israel and tribulation saints are also suffering the effects of Satan's wrath along with everything else.....

Everyone is suffering both the elect and the condemned. The 144,000 Israelites, the beast, the false prophet, the unbelievers, the tribulation saints, Israel......everyone.

You mention tribulation saint
1 it is in 7 years gt is not it?
2 what do you mean by saint ? Christian or not

 

[ewq1938]

"And by His power God has both raised up [G1453 - that is, raised from the dead] the Lord, and will raise us out. " 1Cor6:14,[3]

Here TDW has changed the wording of this verse to say something it does not say:

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Raising the Lord up and raising the dead in Christ up is about resurrections not "raising out". This verse is not speaking of the rapture. This is yet another example of dishonesty by those of pre-trib.


"will also raise up" is one Greek word:


G1825
ἐξεγείρω
exegeirō
ex-eg-i'-ro
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

It's a resurrection!

It's deception to change the English from "will also raise up" to "will raise us out".

Pre-trib is a false doctrine that changes scripture to insert a pre-trib rapture through eisegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

3. It should also be noted that God will send "strong delusion" upon all the inhabitants of the world (during the reign of the Antichrist) so that "they might be damned". But since Christians are not subject to damnation, it follows that they cannot be placed under that strong delusion, which means they must be in Heaven.

Or some Christians commit Apostasy and are no longer Christians. That's the whole Apostasia that Pre-tribbers desire so badly.

 

[ewq1938]

Just to clarify--I am not a post- tribber. In fact I believe all of you are all wrong, but that is my opinion.

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

It is clear that during the time to take the mark some do not and the righteous are still be killed during the time of the antichrist so they are still part of church per say. I personally see the rapture occuring before the bowl judgements at final reaping.

That's known as Post-trib.

 

[Marilyn]

No, Rev 19 refutes that idea soundly. We find the bride GETTING READY for the wedding banquet, and then immediately accompanying King Jesus to earth to end the Tribulation and setting up His kingdom.

It is totally appropriate for the King to have His wedding banquet IN His earthly kingdom. Why should He purposely leave out the martyrs from the Trib? Why would He do that? It sure doesn't make sense.

Hi FG,

I agree that the symbolic `wedding feast,` the joining again of Israel and God is on the earth. (Matt. 22: 12) However it is NOT the Body of Christ that comes with the Lord as His mighty army to defeat the world`s nations and deliver Israel, it is His angelic army.

JESUS AND HIS HOLY ANGELS.

So who comes with Jesus when He returns in great power and great glory?

When Jesus was on earth the disciples asked Him to tell them about what would happen to Israel & the nations at the end of this age. Jesus told them quite clearly about the tribulation & persecution Israel would endure but that He would come again with His mighty angels to deliver Israel & judge the nations of the world.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)


These Holy angels are the army who come with Jesus when he brings vengeance upon the ungodly.

`Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse. And He who sat on him was called faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war....And the armies in heaven clothed in fine white linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.` (Rev. 19: 11 & 14)

This is also the description on the angels coming out of the temple in heaven. They symbolically had garments of linen, white and clean. This is to distinguish them as holy angels and not demonic angels.

White horses - represent glory and power.

The Bible refers to angels and saints as Holy Ones. We need to check scriptures as to which is spoken of.

Translation Errors of `Holy Ones.`

Jude 14, Deut. 33: 2, Zech. 14: 4.

 

[Marilyn]

If by "us" you mean all of humanity, then absolutely.

Actually it was written to the Body of Christ - `to show His servants...` (Rev. 1: 1) It is only by the Lord`s Holy Spirit that we are able to understand what is written concerning the Lord and His wonderful work - building the Body of Christ; being proclaimed Heir of the world; appreciated as Mediator of the new covenant: and praised as Judge and creator of all things new.

No one else can appreciate or receive that revelation until they are born again.

 

[Marilyn]

Here TDW has changed the wording of this verse to say something it does not say:

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Raising the Lord up and raising the dead in Christ up is about resurrections not "raising out". This verse is not speaking of the rapture. This is yet another example of dishonesty by those of pre-trib.


"will also raise up" is one Greek word:


G1825
ἐξεγείρω
exegeirō
ex-eg-i'-ro
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

It's a resurrection!

It's deception to change the English from "will also raise up" to "will raise us out".

Pre-trib is a false doctrine that changes scripture to insert a pre-trib rapture through eisegesis.

The Lord is sent by the Father to join with His Body who will rule with Him on His own throne - judging the world system and fallen angels. (Acts 3: 20 & 21, Rev. 3: 21, 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

 

[cv5]

Or some Christians commit Apostasy and are no longer Christians. That's the whole Apostasia that Pre-tribbers desire so badly.

1 John 2:19 "they went out from us, but they did not belong to us....."

Apostates don't believe and then un-believe. They did not belong in the first place. Simon the Sorcerer was not a believer he was a hanger on. Same goes for Judas.

 

[cv5]

Here TDW has changed the wording of this verse to say something it does not say:

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Raising the Lord up and raising the dead in Christ up is about resurrections not "raising out". This verse is not speaking of the rapture. This is yet another example of dishonesty by those of pre-trib.


"will also raise up" is one Greek word:


G1825
ἐξεγείρω
exegeirō
ex-eg-i'-ro
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

It's a resurrection!

It's deception to change the English from "will also raise up" to "will raise us out".

Pre-trib is a false doctrine that changes scripture to insert a pre-trib rapture through eisegesis.

You can't build doctrine from that passage ALONE........that's not TDW's intent. But it does in fact strengthen the case for a pretrib rapture. The truth is yes indeed that passage DOES strengthen the case for a pretrib rapture......In consideration with all other salient passages.

 

[cv5]

You mention tribulation saint
1 it is in 7 years gt is not it?
2 what do you mean by saint ? Christian or not

I think that the tribulation saints come to believe and therefore exist through the entire seven years. It is also my opinion that there are tribulation saints to come to believe and survive the tribulation and then live on (without being resurrected of course) to populate the planet Earth along with living Israelites. Because Old Testament prophecies demand that there be living gentiles during the time of the Millennium.

 

[ewq1938]

Apostates don't believe and then un-believe.

Wrong. Apostates believe, then they stop. In the case of the Apostasy, they fall away to a false Christ so they still will thin they are Christians but a false Christ means they are false Christians.

 

[ewq1938]

You can't build doctrine from that passage ALONE........that's not TDW's intent. But it does in fact strengthen the case for a pretrib rapture.

TDW changed the wording so it does not match what the original says. That is eisegesis, literally re-writing the holy text! It's speaking of a resurrection not a rapture. That's also why TDW put the definition of the first word but did not for the second word. The definition disprove their theory and unscholarly tampering with the text. That's why I put the definition of the second word so people can see the deception.

 

[Omegatime]

That's known as Post-trib.[/QUOTE

No, you did not read all my posts, I said the final reaping was at Rev, 14:14, that is not at the end of the tribulation. When the Lord comes at the end of the tribulation on the clouds of heaven, he is coming to decide who enters the kingdom at the sheep/goat judgement. These who are judged are all unrighteous, both the sheep and the goats. They are judged by their works and not by faith thru grace. Notice that the sheep didnt even know what they did right. During this time in the kingdom they will be ruled by a rod of iron. Remember that the 70 X 7 of Daniel is to put an end to sin.

I like to mention what foolish thinking it is to think the restrainer
is the Holy Spirit

 

[cv5]

TDW changed the wording so it does not match what the original says. That is eisegesis, literally re-writing the holy text! It's speaking of a resurrection not a rapture. That's also why TDW put the definition of the first word but did not for the second word. The definition disprove their theory and unscholarly tampering with the text. That's why I put the definition of the second word so people can see the deception.

The fact that you continually reject every single thing that TDW provides, is, shall we say
extremely suspicious......

The fact is that TDW is rarely if ever in the wrong on this topic. He is literally batting 1000. And providing copious quantities of BOTH nuanced and profound biblical truth.

All of this you reject for no good biblical reason IMO. Furthermore there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you are absolutely dead wrong on this topic. You're literally 100% wrong 100% of the time it's amazing really. I dare not express my opinion on why.....it's far too embarrassing....

 

[cv5]

Wrong. Apostates believe, then they stop. In the case of the Apostasy, they fall away to a false Christ so they still will thin they are Christians but a false Christ means they are false Christians.

Like I said 100% wrong 100% of the time. Even as regards the most fundamental concepts of belief and salvation.

 

[cv5]

Wrong. Apostates believe, then they stop. In the case of the Apostasy, they fall away to a false Christ so they still will thin they are Christians but a false Christ means they are false Christians.

Please provide a list of those truly saved Christians who you think at one time believed and then unbelieved. From the New Testament. Thank you.

 

[ewq1938]

The fact that you continually reject every single thing that TDW provides, is, shall we say
extremely suspicious......

TDW makes a lot of mistakes and some things are intentionally done to misrepresent scripture as is the case on this verse being discussed, and in the case where they post only a part of a word's definition or go to a completely different word. This is what is required to "prove" a non-biblical doctrine.