THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[haz]

Repentance, baptism, confession, and forgiveness are not dead works..

You misunderstand.
I never said what you claim above.

If you read back through my posts you'll see that I said Christians repented of their dead works of self-righteousness.

If you do not confess your future sins that you commit, then the Lords precious blood can not cover them and cleanse you from that unrighteousness as 1 John shows..

Read 1John 1 from the beginning and note it's evangelical context.
Note that it declares eternal life so that others may have fellowship.

The false doctrine that is being taught is that at a one time repentance and mere belief is all that is needed for your past, present, and future sins to be forgiven/covered..

You seem to be suggesting that Christ's sacrifice for our sin was no more effective than the yearly sacrifice of bulls and goats?

But, Christ's sacrifice set us free from sin, John 8:36.
Thus Christians have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1), we "cannot sin" (1John 3:9).
BTW, a reminder that this refers to our position in Christ. It's not saying we're physically perfect.

Paul and Peter both make it clear only your past and present sins at that time were forgiven and covered, confession for future sins still has to be made.

2 Peter 1:9
But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.


Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Peter in his book even gives a list of things that should be in a believers life, and if they don't have them it is because they have been mislead by that doctrine that no matter what they do from here it is forgiven and covered. Their actions do not matter is what they think, this is a false doctrine to think this way.

You misunderstand.
2Pet 1:9 refers to those who once were Christians, cleansed by the blood, but they then turned back to the law for righteousness.

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
To turn back to the law is to make yourself a transgressor/sinner.

Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I MAKE MYSELF a transgressor/.Sinner

And Rom 3:25 confirms what I've shown in scripture that once we receive Christ we've CEASED from sin, 1Pet 4:1.

 

[newbirth]

you missed my point.
Kenneth is continually laying again the foundation of repentance, which Heb 6:1 says Christians move on from.
Kenneth cannot see himself pure and righteous unless he's repenting again, and again, and again......
Kenneth is mixing works of the law, with grace. This is why he is stuck on always laying again the foundation of repentance.

when you build a foundation do you break it to build your structure? or do you build your structure upon the foundation...??? this is what happens at the foundation of repentance...
Romans 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

this is what happens in our day to day life...we konw that God wiped away our sins when we repented...but as we live our lives if we find sin we must confess them and turn from them....that is repenting...not laying foundation

1 John 1:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You misunderstand my point.
I'm contending there is no sin in Christ, as the scriptures I quoted confirm.
I'm contending that light cannot have fellowship with darkness, as the scriptures I quoted confirm.

When we believe on Jesus then Christians cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33.
This is not to say we're physically perfect in behaviour. Instead it refers to our position in Christ.

what makes you say a christian cannot be charged with sin??? you are saying you can sin and it will not be charged to you?...where does the scripture teach that? Then why is this scripture in the bible...

1 John 5:15-17King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

As for a Christian's flawed physical body, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10

Christians abide in Christ. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

you cannot abide in Christ with sin....you are dead to sin as long as you do not sin....

Romans 6:1-3King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Thus we see in 1Pet 4:1

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath CEASED from sin;

if you believe on Jesus then you will likewise believe he set you free from sin, John 8:36

Christ set you free from sin...he gave you power to say no to sin ....no to sin and say it is not charged to you...

 

[Hizikyah]

Thanks Hiz for so many translation of Jude 1:4.
They confirm what I said.

I'm curious whether you see Jude 1:4 as physical lasciviousnes?

Turning the Messiah blood into A excuse to sin is error. PERIOD. That is what Yahdah (Jude) is saying.

766. aselgeia Strong's Concordance

aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness​

Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.

 

[Mitspa]

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Hizikyah]

Maybe you can answer this now Mr.Mitspa?

Still no reply, why will you not even speak upon these verses? You said you beliee all Scripture not just what Paul wrote.

Mitspa, please answer this;

OK, are these valid? Or is it a justified by works lie? or something else? (I really want to key in on that "and" in Rev 12:17.)

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Why will you not answer my questions..... I asked the same thing a few times now....

I'm still waiting...

 

[haz]

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


So this is saying that those who were once believers got caught back up in willful sin in their life, and can not be brought back to repent of that sin/s because they love darkness more then light. Or as I have seen lost to a false teaching that sin can no longer be imputed on them again, so they do not confess their future sins. Which means they are still living in willful unforgiven sins, and refuse to confess them and/or repent of them because they believe they are recrucifying the Lord or as they put it mocking Him. Then it says you are only doing harm to yourself thinking this way.
King David is a good example of what a man of God should look like, as he never once ceased from praying and asking forgiveness of his sins. We as believers should and are told throughout the NT to follow that example.

You misunderstand Heb 6.
You are still judging by outward appearance, by works of the law.

Heb 6:4-6 refers to Christians who truly had once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, but then reject all this to turn back to unbelief (such as works of the law).

We see a similar warning in Heb 12.
Heb 12:15-17
Looking diligently lest any man FAIL THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears

How does one fail the grace of God?
Gal 5:4
Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW; ye are fallen from grace
Clearly there are some legalists here preaching the law. I suspect most never truly had been enlightened, and tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come. Hence they still have opportunity for repentance as their sin (unbelief, John 16:9) was in ignorance.

 

[Kerry]

No. the power of sin is broken, meaning that you are no longer a slave to sin as you were before. Think about it, before you were saved you enjoyed your sin, rolled in it and laughed about it, then called your friends the next day to tell them about it. But after you accepted Christ, you detested those things and didn't want any part of it. That is the power of sin being broken, It doe's not mean that you will not sin, but are free from the power of sin.

Come unto me all you who are heavy laden for I shall give you rest. My yoke is easy and my burden is light.

 

[Mitspa]

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[haz]

Turning the Messiah blood into A excuse to sin is error. PERIOD. That is what Yahdah (Jude) is saying.

766. aselgeia Strong's Concordance

aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness​

Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: aselgeia
Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a)
Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness
Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.

To "sin" implies that one is under the law.
But Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2,Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.)
And as whatever the law says it says to one under it (Rom 3:19) then it's clear that Christians cannot be charged with sin, as scripture itself confirms (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1).

Note also Jude 1:3 for context, how they were exhorted to contend for the faith (believing on Jesus)
What is the danger that scripture so often warns about?
The danger we're warned about is turning back to the law.

the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12
To turn back to the law is unbelief. Christ has become of no effect to such who turn back to the law, Gal 5:4.
And to turn back to the law is lasciviousness/lust for Hagar (who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).


Hiz. You come across as a legalist. I noted your post #2004 and as you obsess over KEEPING the law, just wondering whether you actually KEEP it?

BTW, keeping the law is to not break it ever. Just one offence makes you guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10.
Have you kept the law (perfectly) since you received Christ?

I hear so often from legalists claiming we are to keep the law, but I've always found that none of them keep it themselves.

 

[Kerry]

Law, grace. and grace and law, but then again grace, but then again law. For the law can't be kept and grace is by faith, but if faith is misplaced the it's the same as law. Grace law, law grace, it enough to make you insane. Thank God for the cross that imputed unto me righteousness. The free gift that is given to those that believe.

 

[Hizikyah]

To "sin" implies that one is under the law.
But Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2,Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.)
And as whatever the law says it says to one under it (Rom 3:19) then it's clear that Christians cannot be charged with sin, as scripture itself confirms (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1).

Note also Jude 1:3 for context, how they were exhorted to contend for the faith (believing on Jesus)
What is the danger that scripture so often warns about?
The danger we're warned about is turning back to the law.

the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12
To turn back to the law is unbelief. Christ has become of no effect to such who turn back to the law, Gal 5:4.
And to turn back to the law is lasciviousness/lust for Hagar (who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).


Hiz. You come across as a legalist. I noted your post #2004 and as you obsess over KEEPING the law, just wondering whether you actually KEEP it?

BTW, keeping the law is to not break it ever. Just one offence makes you guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10.
Have you kept the law (perfectly) since you received Christ?

I hear so often from legalists claiming we are to keep the law, but I've always found that none of them keep it themselves.

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."


1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Kerry]

Yes, when the law came I died. God is God of the living and not the dead. The law will always kill you and Jesus said I have come to give life and life more abundantly. This is not possible under law as it only condemns and provides no remedy. By law we are condemned and by the cross we are set free. You pick.

 

[ELECT]

Yes, when the law came I died. God is God of the living and not the dead. The law will always kill you and Jesus said I have come to give life and life more abundantly. This is not possible under law as it only condemns and provides no remedy. By law we are condemned and by the cross we are set free. You pick.

under law means we are not under the penalty which is death

 

[ELECT]

Law, grace. and grace and law, but then again grace, but then again law. For the law can't be kept and grace is by faith, but if faith is misplaced the it's the same as law. Grace law, law grace, it enough to make you insane. Thank God for the cross that imputed unto me righteousness. The free gift that is given to those that believe.

Can the cross be a stumbiling block to any ?

 

[Kerry]

under law means we are not under the penalty which is death

I don't understand what you are saying? Under law we all go to hell, but by faith in the cross of Christ we receive eternal life.

 

[ELECT]

1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

the penalty for breaking the law is death which Jesus took our place this is not saying dont keep law

 

[ELECT]

I don't understand what you are saying? Under law we all go to hell, but by faith in the cross of Christ we receive eternal life.

If you obey the law of a land are you under the law ?

 

[Kerry]

Can the cross be a stumbiling block to any ?

It most definitely is a stumbling block to the Jew and to Hebrew roots folks, Because they rely on their works and God will not accept that, only faith in His work, which is the cross.

 

[Kerry]

If you obey the law of a land are you under the law ?

Why do I think that you are going somewhere with this, yes we are to obey the law of the country we live in and pay taxes, but most of all we are to stick with the morality of God that He has instilled in us which is higher than law.

 

[ELECT]

I don't understand what you are saying? Under law we all go to hell, but by faith in the cross of Christ we receive eternal life.

Were moses and David under law ? are they going to heaven ?