The Immaculate Conception Error

[Cassian]

BradC,

We must reckon ourself to be dead indeed onto sin but alive unto God. We still have a sin nature until the redemption of our bodies. Then the old sin nature will be put away forever and corruption will put on incorruption. We must walk in the spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You are not understanding the meaning of the terms you are using. One will never be able to walk in the Spirit if they have a sin nature. It is not a matter of choice. Sin becomes your state of being, ones essence. That is why the Original Sin theory is so unscriptural.

Let me give you an analogy. If the essence of water is that it is wet. You want it to be dry at particular times. You want to have a choice, be able to walk in the Spirit which would be impossible if your essence is a sin nature. It would be impossible to be forgiven of ones sins or to repent, or refrain from some habitual sins.

Which is why the Bible NEVER uses the term "sin nature" but describes our essence as a mortal nature.

Without the effects of the cross crucifying the old sin nature man has no way to be free from sin or from the desires and appetites of the flesh.

Where does scripture even imply this phenonemon, let alone state it. I can assure you that every believer sins, and we succumb to the appitites of the flesh.

We have not gotten into this because it was another development of Augustine that he used in his arguments with Pelagius also. That is, that of man's total depravity which is an introduction of his former Manichean theology where they and the Gnostics believed man had a dual nature. One of the flesh which was evil and one of the spirit which was good. That one can walk in the Spirit with his spirit, but sin in the flesh and it has no bearing on the spirit.

We walk by faith in the finished work of the cross and put off the old man and put on Christ, the new man. The life that we live in the flesh we live by the faith of the Son of God who died and gave his life for us.

This statement is categorically in opposition to your Original Sin theory. Which is why the theory is false and unscriptural. If you either have a sin nature you have no choice. You have become sin, it is your essence, not a matter of doing it. If sin is passed on to man, you also do not have a choice. You cannot live by faith, you cannot choose to walk in the Spirit, you cannot choose to not sin. Unless you also believe as the pagans did in Augustine's time that man as a person has both the flesh and the spirit but can live independent of each other. Their idea of salvation is for the soul to be released from the body which is why they did not believe in any resurrection.

 

[BradC]

Nothing like having good sound doctrine to build ourselves up in the most holy faith.

 

[mpaper345]

In fact they will say Mary needed to be sinless to keep Christ sinless.
Because God can keep a mere mortal sin free, but not His own Son?
And if Mary needed to be sinless so that Jesus would be sinless,
then such sinlessless would have to stretch all the way back to Eve.

That would have to be the logical reasoning to it,and if God can cause Mary to be sinless then He could cause Christ to be sinless without Mary being sinless.

 

[mpaper345]

In fact they will say Mary needed to be sinless to keep Christ sinless.
Because God can keep a mere mortal sin free, but not His own Son?
And if Mary needed to be sinless so that Jesus would be sinless,
then such sinlessless would have to stretch all the way back to Eve.

That would have to be the logical reasoning to it,and if God can cause Mary to be sinless then He could cause Christ to be sinless without Mary being sinless.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Even before we attempt to define or defend the doctrine of OS, we must first understand the character of God as consistent in the Bible, and how he deals with various generations.

The chapter of Ezekiel is one of the simplest and clearest chapters on how God deals with various generations. Three generations that are discussed in the chapter, and God clarifies to the Israelites how he deals with each generation.

The Israelites had one contention: Why does the son not bear the iniquity of the father?
The chapter answers that question aptly.

This chapter establishes the following facts;
=>the son will never be held guilty for the father's sin, and vice versa.
=>there is no such thing as a generational curse
=>God looks for obedience in every generation, irrespective of the reputation of the previous generation

We must also note that Exodus 20:5-6 is not talking about a generation curse (this can be discussed later).

Verses such as Romans 5:12-21 must be interpreted in light of the clarity provided by Ezekiel 18.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, AND DEATH BY SIN; and SO...death passed upon all men, for that ALL (not some who disobeyed) have sinned:

Death which is by sin and according to sin PASSED (all inclusive with no exceptions) UPON ALL MEN...FOR ALL HAVE SINNED.

Conclusion: By one man ADAM, sin entered into the world, including DEATH BY SIN. SO...DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN (with no exceptions)... for that reason and that reason ONLY... ALL HAVE SINNED.

Death is the result and the by product of sin, so you can't separate death from sin anymore than you can separate the works of the flesh from the flesh, for the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). We who were dead in sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13).

Paul makes it known that he found a law, that when he would do that which is good, evil was still present with him (Rom 7:21).. Evil is Kakos (not poneros), intrinsic evil. Where did that come from and why was it a law that Paul found in him. He also said in (v.17,20) that when he did what he would not, it was not him but the sin that dwelt in him.

The large print is not yelling but for emphasis, to take special notice.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
Q. Wherefore as by whom?
Ans: by one man, Adam

Q. What entered the world?
Ans: sin entered the world

Q. Whose sin?
Ans: Adam's sin entered the world

Q. Where did the Adam's sin enter?
Ans: into the world, and not into every man

Q. Because of Adam's sin, what entered the world?
Ans: "Death by sin"

Q. Death to whom?
Ans: Death to Adam, as he was the first one to sin

Q. Death by whose sin?
Ans: Death to Adam by Adam's sin.

Wherefore as by one man, Adam, sin entered the world (i repeat, the world), and death to Adam by the sin of Adam;

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Q. and so what happened?
Ans: and so(because of Adam's sin), death passed on upon all men

Q. What passed upon all men?
Ans: death (not sin)

Q. Why did death pass upon all men?
Ans: "for that all have sinned." Everyone from Adam to Moses have willfully disobeyed God.

ALL (not some who disobeyed) have sinned:

How can you insert "not some who disobeyed"? You are twisting the scripture in favor of the false doctrine of Original Sin. We know that all that lived from Adam to Moses (and forward), have sinned/disobeyed/ violated their consciences.

Whether there was a written law or not, all have fallen short of God's righteous standard, and that's why God grieved in Gen 6:6. Just because there was no written law, it did not mean that God did not expect men to do what is right.
Whether sin was "imputed" or not, all have violated their consciences despite having full knowledge of God's moral requirements placed in their hearts.
(what is the meaning of "imputed"? Will explain my understanding later)

This verse is not saying that "in Adam all have sinned, even though they did not wilfully disobey" You are perverting scripture to mean what you want it to mean. In fact it sounds contradictory.
How could all men be "considered to have sinned" because of Adam's disobedient action? How can all men be forcefully called sinners because of Adam's sin?
How can all men be made to share the guilt of Adam's sin?
(Read my Ezekiel 18 post above)
So your assertion that "...some ...disobeyed" is incorrect, because all disobeyed.

Following is the verse that you use to show that some disobeyed; not all:
.[SUP]14[/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
If you read carefully, this verse does not say that "death reigned ....even over them that had not sinned"
This verse is actually saying, "death reigned.... even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression."

This verse is not way saying that there were some that lived after Adam who did not sin, (because scripture says that all have sinned.)
This verse means that some had not sinned the way (after the similitude of) Adam sinned.

How did Adam sin? By breaking a direct command of God.
After Adam, all men had sinned, but their sin was different from Adam, as they did not break a direct command. So they did not sin similar to Adam, although the consequences of all sin is the same for all.

I will respond to the rest of your post when I have the time. Meanwhile, blessings to you!

 

[onlinebuddy]

Even before we attempt to define or defend the doctrine of OS, we must first understand the character of God as consistent in the Bible, and how he deals with various generations.

The chapter of Ezekiel is one of the simplest and clearest chapters on how God deals with various generations. Three generations that are discussed in the chapter, and God clarifies to the Israelites how he deals with each generation.

The Israelites had one contention: Why does the son not bear the iniquity of the father?
The chapter answers that question aptly.

This chapter establishes the following facts;
=>the son will never be held guilty for the father's sin, and vice versa.
=>there is no such thing as a generational curse
=>God looks for obedience in every generation, irrespective of the reputation of the previous generation

We must also note that Exodus 20:5-6 is not talking about a generation curse (this can be discussed later).

Verses such as Romans 5:12-21 must be interpreted in light of the clarity provided by Ezekiel 18.

That was Ezekiel Chapter 18 (I guess my numlock was off)

 

[royalscot]

Death in Adam, Life in Christ---- Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Cassian]

Death in Adam, Life in Christ---- Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Very simple equation that is carried throughout scripture. Not only that but both in vs 21 it says sin reigned in death and in I Cor 15:56 it states the same thing, the sting of death is sin. It is not the other way around.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Death is the result and the by product of sin, so you can't separate death from sin anymore than you can separate the works of the flesh from the flesh, for the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). We who were dead in sins and trespasses (Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13).

There are two types of deaths: physical death and spiritual death. As a result of Adam's sin, both physical death (mortality) and spiritual death (second death) came to Adam.

Physical death came to him because he was removed form the garden. Spiritual death came to him because of the sin and guilt of disobeying God.

God will never make any man (except for his Son) share the guilt of another person. God has specified this through Ezekiel chapter 18, although one man may face the consequences (bye-product) of another man's sin. Eg. A drunk father crashes his car into a tree, and his little daughter gets paralyzed as a result. The daughter has faced the consequence of her father's sin.

As a result of Adam's sin, death (mortality) came to all men. All men did not become guilty or inherit a sin nature as a result of Adam's sin. Only Adam was guilty for his sin of disobedience. However, spiritual death too came to all men because every single man who walked the earth (except Jesus) has willfully sinned. All have sinned.

 

[valiant]

There are two types of deaths: physical death and spiritual death. As a result of Adam's sin, both physical death (mortality) and spiritual death (second death) came to Adam.

Physical death came to him because he was removed form the garden. Spiritual death came to him because of the sin and guilt of disobeying God.

God will never make any man (except for his Son) share the guilt of another person. God has specified this through Ezekiel chapter 18, although one man may face the consequences (bye-product) of another man's sin. Eg. A drunk father crashes his car into a tree, and his little daughter gets paralyzed as a result. The daughter has faced the consequence of her father's sin.

As a result of Adam's sin, death (mortality) came to all men. All men did not become guilty or inherit a sin nature as a result of Adam's sin. Only Adam was guilty for his sin of disobedience. However, spiritual death too came to all men because every single man who walked the earth (except Jesus) has willfully sinned. All have sinned.

Yes because of their sinful nature.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Paul makes it known that he found a law, that when he would do that which is good, evil was still present with him (Rom 7:21).. Evil is Kakos (not poneros), intrinsic evil. Where did that come from and why was it a law that Paul found in him. He also said in (v.17,20) that when he did what he would not, it was not him but the sin that dwelt in him.

"Kakos" does not specifically and exclusively mean "intrinsic evil." Both words are used interchangeably and mean "of bad nature or condition." Both these words are supposed to be adjectives, but in many places these (especially kakos) are used as verbs.

For eg.
Acts 9:13: Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil(kakos) he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Acts 16:28:But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm(kakos): for we are all here.

I can show you many other verses. So you see? Kakos does not always mean "inherently evil." You have been lied to.

And please refrain from degrading the Apostle Paul. Romans 7 is talking about his past, pre-conversion, unsaved state.

It is inconsistent with scripture that someone who has been saved by grace and is a church leader :
=>continues in sin (due to an uncontrollable nature)
=> has not died to sin
=> does not walk in the newness of life
=> has not crucified the old man
=> is slave to his body
=> in bondage to the old man
=> presents the members of his body to unrighteousness
=> allows sin to have dominion over him
=> is a slave to sin and not to righteousness
=> is ashamed of his condition

Now this does not mean that a Christian does not sin. Yes, Romans 7 may characterize some Christians, and yet they are saved by grace (Praise God!). It's not up to us to judge anyone. However it is not the condition of every Christian, as you make it to be. It is the condition of the old man: our natures before we believed and before we were saved.

Romans 7 was the past life of Paul, and certainly not the present life of an Apostle and church leader.

So, let us own up, and not blame our willful sins on some uncontrollable and incurable nature inherited because of someone else's sin.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Yes because of their sinful nature.

Our sinful natures and tendencies are a result of us making the wrong choices. By choosing to disobey our consciences that are inbuilt in us since childhood, we have corrupted our own natures. Let us not blame our sinful tendencies on Adam.

Yes, our mortal natures are because of Adam's sin. But we have no excuse, because if we would be in the place of Adam, we would have also disobeyed, and maybe in a greater magnitude. So we cannot complain or call God unjust.

Moreover, Jesus has set things right by his sacrifice. He has squared the damage (mortality) done by the first man, Adam. He has also saved us from spiritual death (the second death, which is the consequence of our willful sins and the damage done by our willful sins) by our belief and through grace.

However, although saved(from spiritual death), we are still mortal(the consequence of Adam's sin). Being mortal, we will have to face (and fight) the sting of death, which is sin.[1 Cor 15:56]

But Jesus has given us hope by being the first to be resurrected (the firstfruit). His mortal body was changed into a glorified (spiritual) one. The corruptible mortal being will be raised up incorruptible. We, who believe in him, will experience the same resurrection of our bodies. Once our mortal bodies will be resurrected, and we will receive immortal ones, we will not die physically again. Thus, death will be defeated. Death will no longer reign. The sting of death (which is sin) will be removed. [1 Cor chap 15]
More later...

 

[Cassian]

onlinebuddy,

Moreover, Jesus has set things right by his sacrifice. He has squared the damage (mortality) done by the first man, Adam. He has also saved us from spiritual death (the second death, which is the consequence of our willful sins and the damage done by our willful sins) by our belief and through grace.

You were clicking right along and doing well except for one point in the above statement.

Christ did not save us from the second death. You are probably looking at it from the negative point of view. I think this concept comes over from Anselms Satisfaction theory where the idea is that Christ saved us from hell, or in your language the second death.

From the possitive point of view which is based on the creation of man and his purpose in the world was to be united with God, to participate in this world to bring both himself and the world back to God as a living sacrifice. That purpose was lost due to the sin of Adam and the condemnation of death. When Christ completed the atonement, He accomplished two things. One, overcame death and gave life to mankind. Because sin now will have consequences the sacrifice for sin makes it possible for man to be united with Christ by having his sins forgiven.
We are also now back to the original purpose of man's existence which is to be united with Christ. Our salvation, as it was for Adam was to move from imperfection, immaturity to maturity and perfection. Man was to attain to the perfect man which Paul describes as being body and soul, united with Christ.

Man was created free and since he has a choice to be united with Christ or not to be united with Christ, there are consequences for those decisions. One, postive, union eternally with Christ, negatively, hell, second death, for those who reject Christ.

So it is not so much He saved you from the second death but made it a possibility depending on your choice.
God has much for man to do then just to avoid hell.

 

[willfollowsGod]

Cassian, you are wrong. Jesus did save us from the second death, if he did not then explain these verses:

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands is condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 11:23-26
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”


Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Eternal punishment in this verse is referring to the second death. The first death is physical in nature and both the Christians as well as the non-Christians are affected by this, unless God comes and raptures his church, both those living and those who have been dead, and takes them up to heaven.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Another reference to the second death.

You are right that when you accept Christ, it is not just a get out of hell card but that is one of the privileges that Jesus gives us when we accept Him as our personal Savior and sovereign Lord and his death and resurrection. God bless.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian, you are wrong. Jesus did save us from the second death, if he did not then explain these verses:

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands is condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 11:23-26
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”


Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Matthew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Eternal punishment in this verse is referring to the second death. The first death is physical in nature and both the Christians as well as the non-Christians are affected by this, unless God comes and raptures his church, both those living and those who have been dead, and takes them up to heaven.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Another reference to the second death.

You are right that when you accept Christ, it is not just a get out of hell card but that is one of the privileges that Jesus gives us when we accept Him as our personal Savior and sovereign Lord and his death and resurrection. God bless.

So, after you whole statement your last sentence states the very same thing I stated. It is a negative aspect, not a positive one. God has a purpose for man. The citations above do not explain those reasons only shows the means by which one can be united with Christ. Our union with Christ is not a benign event. We don't simply exist just to believe in Him and thus avoid hell.

 

[BradC]

So, after you whole statement your last sentence states the very same thing I stated. It is a negative aspect, not a positive one. God has a purpose for man. The citations above do not explain those reasons only shows the means by which one can be united with Christ. Our union with Christ is not a benign event. We don't simply exist just to believe in Him and thus avoid hell.

That is not any kind of an answer to what you were asked. First man can have no relationship with God until he realizes his total depravity as a sinner, which simply means that he is alienated and separated from God because of sin, his sins and his iniquity that give him a sick head, a faint and deceitful heart causing him to go astray and has no righteousness and no capacity to save himself, to cleanse himself from sin or make any adjustment in his behavior that would make him acceptable to God in any way, shape or form in his spirit, soul or his body. Conviction from the Holy Spirit will always point to man's total depravity and his desperate need to trust in the living God for salvation, for complete justification from all sin and for the gift of eternal life through God's Son, Jesus Christ.

The cross and the blood that was shed on that cross and the resurrection of Christ from the dead was for all men, who are totally depraved and without any goodness on their part being acceptable to God. Man in his best state is but vanity (Psalm 39:5) and all of his righteousness is but filthy rags, we do all fail as the leaf and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away (Is 64:6). God looked down from heave unto the children of men to see if any understand or seek God, but found none that doeth good (not a single imagination, thought or act from God's goodness), (Psalm 14:1,3; 53:1,3, Rom 3:9-18)...no not one, of both the Jew and the Gentile, for all are under sin (v.9). under is hupo - diminution, reduced to a lower value = sin, not the acts of sin but the condemnation of sin from which needs to be removed in order to escape such death, the second death by which a man should perish (damnation)(John 5:24, Rom 5:16, Jude 11-13). This death is upon all those whose names have not been written in the lamb's book of life and those who worship and took on the mark of the beast. The second death is the lake of fire and brimstone that we see in (Rev 2:11, 20:6,14,15, 21:8).

If Jesus was numbered with the transgressors (Luke 22:37) surely we are all numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, having gone astray from birth speaking lies (Psalm 58:3). This is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp this kind of imputation

 

[Roberth]

....why did God have his son conceived of the Holy Spirit within the womb of a virgin and not through the copulation of Joseph?

Because then Christ would have been only a man, born as we are, a slave to sin.

What the Holy Spirit did is He united the Deity of Christ "to the seed of David according to the flesh" in the womb of Mary and thus Christ as the son of man was "born of a woman".

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)


3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


4 And declared to be the Son of God with power...

So Christ was God, but at the incarnation His Deity was united to our fallen life after the fall.

 

[Vdp]

Did you know that nobody goes looking for God?

Romans 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

There is NONE righteous.
There is NONE who understands.
There is NONE who seek God.
There is NONE who do good.

Its God who came looking for us. Its God who has given us Grace. Its God who has given us Faith. Its God who has gives us Salvation. Its God who has made us righteous. Its God who has Justified us. And its God who has Sanctified us.

All we had to do was say "yes" to God.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we do receive a "get out of Hell" free card.

Now the rewards in Heaven is what we work for by following Jesus and doing the will of the Father.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There is nothing we can do to lose our Salvation because Salvation is a Gift received from God by Faith and Grace, not by works.

 

[Cassian]

That is not any kind of an answer to what you were asked. First man can have no relationship with God until he realizes his total depravity as a sinner, which simply means that he is alienated and separated from God because of sin, his sins and his iniquity that give him a sick head, a faint and deceitful heart causing him to go astray and has no righteousness and no capacity to save himself, to cleanse himself from sin or make any adjustment in his behavior that would make him acceptable to God in any way, shape or form in his spirit, soul or his body. Conviction from the Holy Spirit will always point to man's total depravity and his desperate need to trust in the living God for salvation, for complete justification from all sin and for the gift of eternal life through God's Son, Jesus Christ.

The cross and the blood that was shed on that cross and the resurrection of Christ from the dead was for all men, who are totally depraved and without any goodness on their part being acceptable to God. Man in his best state is but vanity (Psalm 39:5) and all of his righteousness is but filthy rags, we do all fail as the leaf and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away (Is 64:6). God looked down from heave unto the children of men to see if any understand or seek God, but found none that doeth good (not a single imagination, thought or act from God's goodness), (Psalm 14:1,3; 53:1,3, Rom 3:9-18)...no not one, of both the Jew and the Gentile, for all are under sin (v.9). under is hupo - diminution, reduced to a lower value = sin, not the acts of sin but the condemnation of sin from which needs to be removed in order to escape such death, the second death by which a man should perish (damnation)(John 5:24, Rom 5:16, Jude 11-13). This death is upon all those whose names have not been written in the lamb's book of life and those who worship and took on the mark of the beast. The second death is the lake of fire and brimstone that we see in (Rev 2:11, 20:6,14,15, 21:8).

If Jesus was numbered with the transgressors (Luke 22:37) surely we are all numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, having gone astray from birth speaking lies (Psalm 58:3). This is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp this kind of imputation

That explanation fits very well within a Calvinistic, predestination understanding but it does not fit scripture. God imputes nothing to man to make him evil, or to sin.