The Immaculate Conception Error

[onlinebuddy]

Rom 3:9-18)...no not one, of both the Jew and the Gentile, for all are under sin (v.9). under is hupo - diminution, reduced to a lower value = sin, not the acts of sin but the condemnation of sin from which needs to be removed in order to escape such death, the second death by which a man should perish (damnation)

under=hupo
There is nothing so special about the word Hupo. Under means under, and there's nothing so difficult to understand about it.

sin, not the acts of sin but the condemnation of sin from which needs to be removed

sin=hamartia, and means "offense" or "to miss the mark" or "to violate the the divine law in thought or act."
These are clearly acts of sin, and not imputed sin.
Hamartia does not mean "condemnation of sin."

The same word, "hamartia" is used in Matthew 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins., but this time it is in the plural: "their sins," meaning the people's sins.
Even here, hamartia means their offenses and not their "condemnation of sin."

In Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.It clearly says that people confessed their sins(hamartia). They confessed their sins and not their "condemnation of sin" to John the Baptist.

 

[onlinebuddy]

If Jesus was numbered with the transgressors (Luke 22:37) surely we are all numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, having gone astray from birth speaking lies (Psalm 58:3). This is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp this kind of imputation

Jesus was reckoned (logizomai) with the transgressors.
Reckoned with means counted among or numbered among or numbered with. In some verses of the KJV, reckoned is translated as imputed. However, imputed never means transfer, as OS believers claim. (I'll write more on this later as and when I have the time.)

Now, you have somehow connected Luke 22:37 to Psalm 58:3. This is an incorrect association. Why do you have to pull scripture out of context, and make incorrect associations, in order to prove your theory of OS?

Psalm 58:3 talks about the wicked (rasha'). Rasha' means the morally wrong, the guilty one, the ungodly or the condemned. Psalm 58 is not talking about all men or all babies.

You make this same type of mistake while interpreting Romans 7. Romans 7 was Paul's past, and no way his present life as an apostle and leader.

It is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp the difference between the condemned and the justified.

Bye for now...

 

[willfollowsGod]

So, after you whole statement your last sentence states the very same thing I stated. It is a negative aspect, not a positive one. God has a purpose for man. The citations above do not explain those reasons only shows the means by which one can be united with Christ. Our union with Christ is not a benign event. We don't simply exist just to believe in Him and thus avoid hell.

Did you even read my post?

 

[Cassian]

Did you even read my post?

Yes, I responded to every point. Did you read my response to it?

 

[BradC]

Just as Adam's sin was imputed to all men, the sin of all men was imputed to the second Adam (Christ) on the cross and crucified. What great news for sinners, who were born with sin in their members alienated from God. Yes, it is true that infants and small children have no capacity to understand the things of God and they are safe until they reach the age of accountability, which may vary from person to person.

 

[willfollowsGod]

Yes, I responded to every point. Did you read my response to it?

Yes, I did. Good to know.

 

[Roberth]

Yes, it is true that infants and small children have no capacity to understand the things of God and they are safe until they reach the age of accountability, which may vary from person to person.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men (because we share Adam's fallen life), even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's doing & dying as "the last Adam") there resulted justification of life to all men.

 

[valiant]

Just as Adam's sin was imputed to all men, the sin of all men was imputed to the second Adam (Christ) on the cross and crucified. What great news for sinners, who were born with sin in their members alienated from God. Yes, it is true that infants and small children have no capacity to understand the things of God and they are safe until they reach the age of accountability, which may vary from person to person.

I do wish people would not try to put words in the mouth of God. Who says children have no capacity to understand the things of God? Jesus said that we had to become like them if WE wanted to understand the things of God. Who says there is an 'age of accountability'? Not God. These are all human inventions.

If this was true the kindest thing we could do would be to let children die young.

We would do well not to second guess God.

God is in Heaven and we are on the earth. Therefore let our words be few.

 

[valiant]

Jesus was reckoned (logizomai) with the transgressors.
Reckoned with means counted among or numbered among or numbered with.

Jesus was counted among the transgressors. But that did not make Him a transgressor. He bore OUR sin in His own body on the tree.

In some verses of the KJV, reckoned is translated as imputed. However, imputed never means transfer, as OS believers claim. (I'll write more on this later as and when I have the time.)

It is irrelevant to the question of OS.

Psalm 58:3 talks about the wicked (rasha'). Rasha' means the morally wrong, the guilty one, the ungodly or the condemned. Psalm 58 is not talking about all men or all babies.

Of course it is talking about all men. Or are you saying some are born wicked and some are born righteous?. ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God. Therefore all are wicked. The Psalmist's point is exactly that. That ALL go astray from the womb, speaking lies.

You make this same type of mistake while interpreting Romans 7. Romans 7 was Paul's past, and no way his present life as an apostle and leader.

Roman 7.14 onwards was Paul's present experience when he wrote. 'I AM carnal, sold under sin.' He still had the mind of the flesh combatting the mind of the Spirit, as we all have.

It is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp the difference between the condemned and the justified.

well when I was a natural man I understood the difference. So you are clearly wrong.

 

[Roberth]

I do wish people would not try to put words in the mouth of God.

We have God's word, the Bible. He spells it out, especially in Romans chapter 5. Perhaps you should read?

If this was true the kindest thing we could do would be to let children die young.

Are you espousing murder?

 

[Is]

The seed (sperm) comes from the man, right? The Holy Spirit placed the seed from mankind in Mary's womb. That's why Christ was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh. (see Romans 1:3) Hence Christ, as the son of man, was made like His brethren in all things. See Heb 2:17

The Holy Spirit placed the seed from mankind in Mary's womb.

The seed from mankind? Jesus wasn't concieved by the seed of man. His conception was miraculous by the holy Spirit.

 

[Is]

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

The only reason that point is made is because Mary was from the line of David.

 

[Is]

Yes, as God Christ only had the divine nature, but as man he assumed our fallen nature.

No He didn't assume our fallen nature, scripture is very clear that Jesus was without sin.

 

[BradC]

No He didn't assume our fallen nature, scripture is very clear that Jesus was without sin.

You are absolutely correct. This issue of Christ being without sin is a stumbling block to them. Seeing Christ without sin and having sin imputed to him on the cross is not acceptable to them and they stumble at it. They fail to see that Christ came in the 'likeness' of sinful flesh to condemn sin in his flesh. This is the beauty of the spotless lamb that took away the sin of the world. May we never give place to any form of doctrine that denied Christ as the Lamb of God.

 

[Grandpa]

Look to the shadow, the OT.

The lambs that were sacrificed were inspected by the priests to ensure they were un-blemished. Only un-blemished lambs were accepted for sacrifice.

That is the shadow.

The Real is that the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the only acceptable, un-blemished sacrifice. The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. (Have mercy on us...)

The Lord Jesus knew our temptations because He was born in the flesh. But He overcame those temptations because He was born of the Seed of God. He was/is the un-blemished Lamb of God.

Hebrews 7:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 

[valiant]

We have God's word, the Bible. He spells it out, especially in Romans chapter 5. Perhaps you should read?

I suspect that you do not know what I believe lol otherwise you would not have said that.

Are you espousing murder?

Perhaps you do not know the meaning of the word IF?

 

[Vdp]

Hebrews 4:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Who is our High Priest?

Christ Jesus is our High Priest.

Our High Priest was in all points tempted to sin and did not sin.

Christ Jesus was tempted and never sinned! Jesus was the ONLY person to be sinless!

 

[Vdp]

How do we receive Salvation?

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We receive Salvation by Faith in believing in Jesus. The Grace is given to us by God.

How then can we lose our Salvation?

The ONLY way to lose Salvation is by rejecting Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Nobody can lose their Salvation by sinning because we never received Salvation by not sinning.

 

[valiant]

How do we receive Salvation?

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

We receive Salvation by Faith in believing in Jesus. The Grace is given to us by God.

How then can we lose our Salvation?

The ONLY way to lose Salvation is by rejecting Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Nobody can lose their Salvation by sinning because we never received Salvation by not sinning.

You are quite mistaken. We do not 'receive salvation', nor can we 'lose it'. You talk as though salvation was a commodity that we can do with as we like. But that is not so. Salvation is the activity and work of God. It is He Who saves. Thus it is not within our control. Whom He chooses to save He will save, and He will never fail in His purpose. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise him up at the last day.' We need SAVING, not being helped along the way.

 

[Cassian]

You are quite mistaken. We do not 'receive salvation', nor can we 'lose it'. You talk as though salvation was a commodity that we can do with as we like. But that is not so. Salvation is the activity and work of God. It is He Who saves. Thus it is not within our control. Whom He chooses to save He will save, and He will never fail in His purpose. 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise him up at the last day.' We need SAVING, not being helped along the way.

It should be noted here that salvation is referencing the work of Christ. Christ saved mankind, the world from death and sin. There is no particularization here. Your citation of John 6:39 is referencing all that was given Christ. What was given Christ to redeem? All things, everything in heaven and on earth, Col 1:20. This has absolutely nothing to do with one's obtaining eternal life by and through faith. Whether we attain eternal life or not is all determined by man. That was the whole purpose of God creating man in the first place, then Christ recreating man, the new man, so that man could freely join in union with Him.