The Immaculate Conception Error
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valiant,
being born through a sinful mother does not make you a sinner. It does make you mortal which is the cause of your sinning.
If man is born with sin, is a sinner, then Christ is also born in sin and is a sinner. The consequence of the theory is never extended. There is a continuous thread in scripture. If one has an incorrect understanding of the fall, then one will also have an incorrect understanding of the salvation from that fall.
Obviously, you don't understand Pelagianism either.
It is not my theory. It is what scripture has always meant regarding the fall and Christ's salvation from the fall.
Adam was NOT mortal. By his sin the condemnation was death/mortality. It is the mortality that we inherit, not sin.
One must do sin to be sinful or a sinner. Could you explain how sin can be inherited? Do you know the definition of sin?
quite the contrary, I don't hold to the Original Sin theory. I might also add it becomes problmatic for the Incarnation of Christ as well. This is why the OP regarding IC was necessary for the RCC to correct an earlier acceptance of Original Sin.
If we are born with sin, if we have a sin nature, just how can Christ save us from that bondage to sin? Sin is no longer a choice. Does the Bible actually teach that sin does not matter, we can still sin and still walk in the Light? You have a theology that is contradictory to the rest of scripture. This is always the problem with false theories, they are not consistant with scripture. False premises lead to false conclusions or just ignore the logical conclusions.
being born through a sinful mother does not make you a sinner. It does make you mortal which is the cause of your sinning.
If man is born with sin, is a sinner, then Christ is also born in sin and is a sinner. The consequence of the theory is never extended. There is a continuous thread in scripture. If one has an incorrect understanding of the fall, then one will also have an incorrect understanding of the salvation from that fall.
Obviously, you don't understand Pelagianism either.
It is not my theory. It is what scripture has always meant regarding the fall and Christ's salvation from the fall.
Adam was NOT mortal. By his sin the condemnation was death/mortality. It is the mortality that we inherit, not sin.
One must do sin to be sinful or a sinner. Could you explain how sin can be inherited? Do you know the definition of sin?
quite the contrary, I don't hold to the Original Sin theory. I might also add it becomes problmatic for the Incarnation of Christ as well. This is why the OP regarding IC was necessary for the RCC to correct an earlier acceptance of Original Sin.
If we are born with sin, if we have a sin nature, just how can Christ save us from that bondage to sin? Sin is no longer a choice. Does the Bible actually teach that sin does not matter, we can still sin and still walk in the Light? You have a theology that is contradictory to the rest of scripture. This is always the problem with false theories, they are not consistant with scripture. False premises lead to false conclusions or just ignore the logical conclusions.
If Jesus had any advantage that we did not have, that would not be fair of God. Secondly, if Jesus had an advantage that we did not have, he cannot be held up as an example for us. Yes, he had the Spirit of God, but that's an advantage every believer has too. Having the Spirit does not take away all the cravings of mortal flesh(now this does not mean that I am advocating the concept of Original Sin, or the concept of our flesh being indwelt with iniquity).Just as he had the Spirit, we are given the Spirit when we repent and believe. Yet we struggle to live a life of purity as Jesus did.It's important to note that God is not asking of us to live perfectly sinless lives. No one is saved by works, but by grace. Now, this does not mean that we can blame our conscious and willfully committed sin (despite knowing His commandments) on our sinful nature or on our flesh indwelt with iniquity.Bottomline: God wants us to display faith. The ancients, despite their super messed up lives, were commended for their faith.
B
Are you saying that we do not have sin and iniquity in the heart through original sin transferred from Adam, then where did these works of the flesh come from that Jesus describes within the heart in Mt 15 & Mk 7? How did they get into the heart? How does lying and foolishness get into the heart of the child if they are innocent? A child will take what does not belong to them and knows in their tender conscience that it is wrong without being taught how to steal. Jesus was born without the sin of Adam or original sin.
Children will manipulate parents to get what they want and have a tantrum if they don't get it. I would call that a work of their little flesh that comes from within the heart of that child and they have to be taught and disciplined not to be that way.
Children will manipulate parents to get what they want and have a tantrum if they don't get it. I would call that a work of their little flesh that comes from within the heart of that child and they have to be taught and disciplined not to be that way.
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Jesus is God. He is self-existing. There was never a time that He didn't exist and there will never be a time when He ceases to exist. But at the incarnation Christ as God handed the independent use of His Deity over to His Father and was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).
Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10.
When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).
Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10.
If Jesus was using His Divinity then He wouldn't have stated, "I can do nothing of myself".
Luke 2:52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
God is all-knowing. He doesn't grow in wisdom. This proves that Christ as the son of man wasn't depending on His Deity. He had turned the independent use of it over to His Father.
The verses you quoted do not talk about Original Sin at all.
The context of the two passages you are quoting is: Food does not defile; Sin does.
Jesus is challenging the Pharisees that all their outward traditions are of no advantage in the sight of God. Rather, their traditions take them away from the Word of God.
What counts is the inside- i.e.a heart conditioned by obedience.
These passages are in no way saying that the heart is inherently evil. If we blame our hearts for all the evil that we do, it means that we are not responsible for our sins, and God has no right to punish or judge us, since He gave us an evil heart.
Why did Jesus severely rebuke the Pharisees for being whitewashed tombs, if their condition was due to the "evil heart" that none other than God gave them? If our hearts were responsible for all the evil we do, the Pharisees could have answered Jesus back, "But Jesus, it's not our fault! God gave us this evil heart that stinks on the inside!"
The Bible also says that the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; but who's responsible? We are! We have no excuse! Jesus had the same heart and he did not sin!
The context of the two passages you are quoting is: Food does not defile; Sin does.
Jesus is challenging the Pharisees that all their outward traditions are of no advantage in the sight of God. Rather, their traditions take them away from the Word of God.
What counts is the inside- i.e.a heart conditioned by obedience.
These passages are in no way saying that the heart is inherently evil. If we blame our hearts for all the evil that we do, it means that we are not responsible for our sins, and God has no right to punish or judge us, since He gave us an evil heart.
Why did Jesus severely rebuke the Pharisees for being whitewashed tombs, if their condition was due to the "evil heart" that none other than God gave them? If our hearts were responsible for all the evil we do, the Pharisees could have answered Jesus back, "But Jesus, it's not our fault! God gave us this evil heart that stinks on the inside!"
The Bible also says that the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure; but who's responsible? We are! We have no excuse! Jesus had the same heart and he did not sin!
Because we were conceived in iniquity we naturally sin. Simply put iniquity is our bent-to-self. It's our self-love. Its the essence of why we sin.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them (the lost) at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh (our fallen nature) and of the mind.
Note we automatically sin because our flesh is in harmony with our minds.
Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them (the lost) at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh (our fallen nature) and of the mind.
Note we automatically sin because our flesh is in harmony with our minds.
Agree! The heart is nothing but the mind with its emotions and thoughts.
The emotional side is more susceptible to Satan. The emotional side is more under the control of the flesh (as we notice in infants).
The logical side (thought and reason) can be conditioned by the Word of God.
Although emotions have their part to play, we are urged not to let our emotions take over. We must let the logical side take precedence, by subjecting it to the word of God.
That's exactly what Jesus did.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross![Phil 2:8]
It was not automatic.
The emotional side is more susceptible to Satan. The emotional side is more under the control of the flesh (as we notice in infants).
The logical side (thought and reason) can be conditioned by the Word of God.
Although emotions have their part to play, we are urged not to let our emotions take over. We must let the logical side take precedence, by subjecting it to the word of God.
That's exactly what Jesus did.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross![Phil 2:8]
It was not automatic.
Whether we automatically sin or not, God expects us repent.
Sin is our fault! We can't blame our natural inclinations, because God expects us to overcome those inclinations of the flesh, just as Jesus did(not that we're saved by our efforts).
Is sin really an automatic occurrence?
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. [James 1:14-15]
Sin can be the product of our ungodly thought life. Sin leads to spiritual death. Spiritual death is a consequence of our willful sin(guilt); and not the sin of Adam. Our physical death is because of Adam's sin; but we will face spiritual death (the second death) if we do not repent.
Therefore much significance must not be given to our natural inclinations, or to Adam's sin because that gives us an excuse to sin. Jesus has squared the damage done by Adam's sin by his death.
Sin is our fault! We can't blame our natural inclinations, because God expects us to overcome those inclinations of the flesh, just as Jesus did(not that we're saved by our efforts).
Is sin really an automatic occurrence?
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. [James 1:14-15]
Sin can be the product of our ungodly thought life. Sin leads to spiritual death. Spiritual death is a consequence of our willful sin(guilt); and not the sin of Adam. Our physical death is because of Adam's sin; but we will face spiritual death (the second death) if we do not repent.
Therefore much significance must not be given to our natural inclinations, or to Adam's sin because that gives us an excuse to sin. Jesus has squared the damage done by Adam's sin by his death.
Like all other men we very soon sin. We sin because we are mortal (dead) beings. We are governed by our passions. We don't sin because we have some kind of disease called sin or a sin nature. The disease or parasite is death.
But don't forget the first verse. Christ made us all alive, gave life because He defeated death.
NO, our minds are driven by the flesh. With Christ we can shun sin and we can walk in the Spirit or Light. It is a choice, has always been a choice, Man was never by creation or the fall a creature that did not have freedom.
But don't forget the first verse. Christ made us all alive, gave life because He defeated death.
NO, our minds are driven by the flesh. With Christ we can shun sin and we can walk in the Spirit or Light. It is a choice, has always been a choice, Man was never by creation or the fall a creature that did not have freedom.
B
You don't dare deal with any of those illustrations about children. Why is that? You know they are true examples and you have no answer. How anyone can have the Holy Spirit and not understand the sinful condition of the human heart that starts at conception. It is baffling. You don't see it, you don't acknowledge it and therefore you deny it.
I have made a little mention of infants in post #171. Will elaborate later.
And hold your horses! Don't be so quick to condemn.
Please give me scriptural proof that babies are born with Original Sin. I hope you will do better than giving me a few OT verses which are poetic and figurative in nature.
Peace!
And hold your horses! Don't be so quick to condemn.
Please give me scriptural proof that babies are born with Original Sin. I hope you will do better than giving me a few OT verses which are poetic and figurative in nature.
Peace!
B
Have you forgotten that original sin is first laid out in the OT, starting in Gen 2, that leads into the first murder with Cain and the story just rolls on to the point that God repented that he had made man. Sin and iniquity was so inherit in man that his imaginations were evil continually. This is why man does what is right in his own eyes because they have all turned away, there is none righteous, no not one, all have gone astray from birth. All these things point to a depraved state in the heart of man which is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things.
HOW DID ALL THOSE THINGS JESUS SAID PROCEED FROM THE HEART GET THERR IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE CONTEXT DOES NOT DISQUALIFY THE ISSUE OF WHAT IS IN THE HEART. FOR OUT OF THE HEART PROCEED THE ISSUES OF LIFE.
HOW DID ALL THOSE THINGS JESUS SAID PROCEED FROM THE HEART GET THERR IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE CONTEXT DOES NOT DISQUALIFY THE ISSUE OF WHAT IS IN THE HEART. FOR OUT OF THE HEART PROCEED THE ISSUES OF LIFE.
Actually it does. nature begets nature. But that is not the point. The point is CONTEXT. In Psalm 51 David's whole point was to connect his mother's sinfulness with his own sins. His point was that he had committed gross sins because he was born of a sinful mother.
Why should being mortal make you sin?
Nonsense, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. You are bogged down by your own ideas.
it has no consequence apart from human sin in those conceived by humans .
and that is your problem, you don't understand the Fall. It changed human nature. That's why Cain was jealous of and killed Abel.
LOL I bet I know more about it than you do.
Everyone is out of step except our Cassian LOL
You are wrong. Scripture says that Adam WAS mortal. It specifically says that if he was to live for ever he had to eat of the tree of life. You don't know your Scriptures (or do you just ignore what you don't like?)
But we would have inherited mortality even if he had not sinned. What we inherited was a sinful nature, an irresistible tendency to sin.
Equally one does sin because one is a sinner. What you do proves what you already are.
By being passed on at conception. Being born a sinner results in sins.
Yes sin (1 John 1.8) is that which makes me sin (1 John 1.10).
I never said you did. But your views are even more heretical.
It has no problems at all with respect to the incarnation of Christ. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and therefore without sin.
By justification, sanctification and the new birth,
Our sinful nature is not a choice. but whether we do sin IS a choice. Of course we can still sin and walk in the light. Otherwise how could walking in the light result in our being cleansed from sin ? (1 John 1.7)
RUBBISH !!!!
Why should being mortal make you sin?
Nonsense, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. You are bogged down by your own ideas.
it has no consequence apart from human sin in those conceived by humans .
and that is your problem, you don't understand the Fall. It changed human nature. That's why Cain was jealous of and killed Abel.
LOL I bet I know more about it than you do.
Everyone is out of step except our Cassian LOL
You are wrong. Scripture says that Adam WAS mortal. It specifically says that if he was to live for ever he had to eat of the tree of life. You don't know your Scriptures (or do you just ignore what you don't like?)
But we would have inherited mortality even if he had not sinned. What we inherited was a sinful nature, an irresistible tendency to sin.
Equally one does sin because one is a sinner. What you do proves what you already are.
By being passed on at conception. Being born a sinner results in sins.
Yes sin (1 John 1.8) is that which makes me sin (1 John 1.10).
I never said you did. But your views are even more heretical.
It has no problems at all with respect to the incarnation of Christ. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and therefore without sin.
By justification, sanctification and the new birth,
Our sinful nature is not a choice. but whether we do sin IS a choice. Of course we can still sin and walk in the light. Otherwise how could walking in the light result in our being cleansed from sin ? (1 John 1.7)
RUBBISH !!!!
LOL I do love these people who tell us what is 'fair' for God to do. Do you judge God by your standards?. If you do you are a fool. Anything God chooses to do is fair.
LOL Jesus was not coming in order to enter into a competition. What does it matter if it was 'fair'. You have such peculiar ideas. It actually wasn't 'fair' that Jesus should die for our sins. Indeed it was grossly unfair (humanly speaking).
NONSENSE.
But He had the Spirit in all His fullness (John 3.34). we only enjoy a portion of the Spirit.
However He also had a divine nature. That is something we do not have, even if we can 'partake' of it.
Furthermore He was born without a sinful nature.
But He did not have the sinful cravings of our mortal sinful flesh. And as I have shown you we do not have the Spirit in the same way as He did. He is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit.
NOWHERE does it say that Jesus struggled to live a life of purity. You clearly don't know the Scriptures.
'Be you perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.' Sounds conclusive to me. Of course God is asking us to live perfectly sinless lives. It is because we cannot do so that we need a Saviour.
Actually we are saved by works, GOD's works. Our salvation is by God's working (Phil 2.13). And that working is a consequence of His grace, His unmerited love, favour and compassion.
We can only blame ourselves. Nevertheless they are due to our sinful nature. Our sinful nature expresses what WE are by our sinning as a consequence of it
No He wants us to have faith.
Only some of them LOL
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