The Immaculate Conception Error
- Thread starter emekrus
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself (which is self-love) and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That's agape. That's what it means to deny self.
Again I will say it, original sin is not a theory and the concept is in the Bible. Stop playing hermeneutic games, whoever is playing them.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Right there, our default position since we have inherited the sin of Adam, is that we are sinners and all of us have sinned against God. Even the Ten Commandments speak against us and reveals that we are sinners and need the grace and mercy of a Savior who is Jesus Christ, who is God.
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Right here, our righteous acts are like filthy rags. Why? Due to us being born in sin, God by default does not accept our good works and they do not save us since we are already unrighteous. Only by putting one's trust in Jesus Christ and due to that trust doing the good works Jesus lovingly commands us to do are we saved. Not because of the good works we do, but because of the grace and mercy of God.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Right here, death came about because Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden. If he had never sinned, he would never have died and neither would have Eve died if she had not been tricked by the serpent to take the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.
If we know Jesus, then our wages since we are righteous is life. But if we do not know Jesus, we are wicked and our earnings are sin and death. They are connected. But since we are believers we will not experience the second death.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Due to the sin of Adam, we all die. When we come to Christ, he gives a new life as well as eternal life. So we will experience physical death but not the second death involving hell and the lake of fire.
God bless. Have a beautiful day!
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Right there, our default position since we have inherited the sin of Adam, is that we are sinners and all of us have sinned against God. Even the Ten Commandments speak against us and reveals that we are sinners and need the grace and mercy of a Savior who is Jesus Christ, who is God.
Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Right here, our righteous acts are like filthy rags. Why? Due to us being born in sin, God by default does not accept our good works and they do not save us since we are already unrighteous. Only by putting one's trust in Jesus Christ and due to that trust doing the good works Jesus lovingly commands us to do are we saved. Not because of the good works we do, but because of the grace and mercy of God.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Right here, death came about because Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden. If he had never sinned, he would never have died and neither would have Eve died if she had not been tricked by the serpent to take the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the righteous is life, but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.
If we know Jesus, then our wages since we are righteous is life. But if we do not know Jesus, we are wicked and our earnings are sin and death. They are connected. But since we are believers we will not experience the second death.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Due to the sin of Adam, we all die. When we come to Christ, he gives a new life as well as eternal life. So we will experience physical death but not the second death involving hell and the lake of fire.
God bless. Have a beautiful day!
Could you explain how many times you have died if the wages of sin is death?
I an NOT dying physically because of sin. I'm dying because I am mortal. We all live a life of survival. We kill everything we need to stay alive. Physically, I am dead, not dying. I may have a biological time frame, but it is guaranteed that I will die no matter what. I would die even if I could not sin.
The text for man today only applies to spiritual death. Every sin is against God and separates man from God.
As I have stated many times already, death makes us sin. I Cor 15:56. Read it very carefully. The sting of death is sin. It is NOT the other way around.
I an NOT dying physically because of sin. I'm dying because I am mortal. We all live a life of survival. We kill everything we need to stay alive. Physically, I am dead, not dying. I may have a biological time frame, but it is guaranteed that I will die no matter what. I would die even if I could not sin.
The text for man today only applies to spiritual death. Every sin is against God and separates man from God.
As I have stated many times already, death makes us sin. I Cor 15:56. Read it very carefully. The sting of death is sin. It is NOT the other way around.
willfollowsGod,
You assume the teaching of Original Sin but scripture never states here that man is born a sinner. We sin, and sin easily because we are mortal. No one is claiming we don't need a Savior. The topic of IC is false on its own, but it was established to correct the false theory of Original Sin that the RCC adopted officially at the Council of Trent.
the key active words here is "we become" not are and "our sins" not the sin of Adam or worse God imputing sin to us.
Being born is sin is not having sin. You are also born in water, does that make you water?
You are also conflating salvation as scripture uses the term, What Christ did. vs obtaining eternal life which is through a covenant, a relationship of love in Christ. Christ did not save you unto a relationship, but saved mankind so that each man could freely choose by his own free will whether to be joined with Christ or not be joined.
You also conflate the concept of grace and mercy which is a gift to all men, vs grace and faith/works which deal with our relationship with Christ.
It is very obvious this is speaking about spiritual death and eternal life. It is not addressing physical death, the condemnation we inherited via Adam.
true, but the issue is whether we inherit sin or death. Scripture says death, physical death. The Original Sin theory says sin, and for some theorists, sin is imputed to man by God, at that.
YOu sort of answered your own question. This is all about spiritual death, not physical death. We are accountable for our sin because we did it. Sin is not inherit in man that we have no control over it, or that it is imputed by God or any othr way as embodied in the Original Sin theory. I think you are confused in understanding the difference between physical death and spiritual death. We had nothing to do with the former. Christ defeated physical death for us. All the rest is up to each individual whether he lives spiritually now and for eternity or whether he dies spiritually now or for eternity.
This is a direct, unequivocal denial of the theory of Original Sin. It is the same equation of Rom 5:12/18. We do NOT ihherit sin or a sin nature, but do inherit death, death from Adam, and we will inherit immortal life from Christ.
You are conflating the two kinds of death here. This is all and ONLY about physical death and life. Read the pretext of this summary, I Cor 15:12-21.
Other than you do not understand the whole discussion probably because you don't have any clarity on just what constitutes the tenets of Original Sin theory as first developed by Augustine. It has become so pervasive in all western theologies but especially in the Protestant milieu.
You assume the teaching of Original Sin but scripture never states here that man is born a sinner. We sin, and sin easily because we are mortal. No one is claiming we don't need a Savior. The topic of IC is false on its own, but it was established to correct the false theory of Original Sin that the RCC adopted officially at the Council of Trent.
the key active words here is "we become" not are and "our sins" not the sin of Adam or worse God imputing sin to us.
Being born is sin is not having sin. You are also born in water, does that make you water?
You are also conflating salvation as scripture uses the term, What Christ did. vs obtaining eternal life which is through a covenant, a relationship of love in Christ. Christ did not save you unto a relationship, but saved mankind so that each man could freely choose by his own free will whether to be joined with Christ or not be joined.
You also conflate the concept of grace and mercy which is a gift to all men, vs grace and faith/works which deal with our relationship with Christ.
It is very obvious this is speaking about spiritual death and eternal life. It is not addressing physical death, the condemnation we inherited via Adam.
true, but the issue is whether we inherit sin or death. Scripture says death, physical death. The Original Sin theory says sin, and for some theorists, sin is imputed to man by God, at that.
YOu sort of answered your own question. This is all about spiritual death, not physical death. We are accountable for our sin because we did it. Sin is not inherit in man that we have no control over it, or that it is imputed by God or any othr way as embodied in the Original Sin theory. I think you are confused in understanding the difference between physical death and spiritual death. We had nothing to do with the former. Christ defeated physical death for us. All the rest is up to each individual whether he lives spiritually now and for eternity or whether he dies spiritually now or for eternity.
This is a direct, unequivocal denial of the theory of Original Sin. It is the same equation of Rom 5:12/18. We do NOT ihherit sin or a sin nature, but do inherit death, death from Adam, and we will inherit immortal life from Christ.
You are conflating the two kinds of death here. This is all and ONLY about physical death and life. Read the pretext of this summary, I Cor 15:12-21.
Other than you do not understand the whole discussion probably because you don't have any clarity on just what constitutes the tenets of Original Sin theory as first developed by Augustine. It has become so pervasive in all western theologies but especially in the Protestant milieu.
If true as you see it, why would Paul say that we inherited death through the condemnation of Adam' sin, Rom 5:12, and that the life of Christ is given to all to correct that death, Rom 5:18. He reiterates it again in I Cor 15:22, Heb 2:14, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9. This is all based on Gen 3:19 when God imposes this death sentence upon Adam. God never said He is imposing sin upon us, or making us sinners.
You should also check out the heresy of Pelagius who holds the same view as you just stated, which is the opposite of what scripture states in Rom 5:14.
You should also check out the heresy of Pelagius who holds the same view as you just stated, which is the opposite of what scripture states in Rom 5:14.
You say that humanity cannot perfectly know the will of God but in this verse it says we will be without excuse.
So will God just punish us after He says, ("Be ye perfect even as I am perfect.") if we could not understand His perfect will?
This verse below says otherwise.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20
This means the saved and the lost will be without excuse and can now know the perfect will of God. So we can all know His perfect will. This is why God calls us to be witnesses.
Jesus was made like us in all respects, and yet he obeyed God in all things.
He was tempted in every way just as we are, and yet he did not sin [Heb 4:15]
Now, since Jesus was just like us, it means that:
if we have a sin nature, Jesus had a sin nature too.
and if we have no sin nature, Jesus had no sin nature.
Now you decide: did Jesus have a sin nature?
So conversely:
If Jesus had a sin nature; we must be having a sin nature
If Jesus did not have a sin nature; we have no sin nature.
Now, name a verse in the Bible that explicitly says that Jesus had a sin nature!
Note that Hebrews 2:17 and Hebrews 4:15 do not say that Jesus had a sin nature.
He was tempted in every way just as we are, and yet he did not sin [Heb 4:15]
Now, since Jesus was just like us, it means that:
if we have a sin nature, Jesus had a sin nature too.
and if we have no sin nature, Jesus had no sin nature.
Now you decide: did Jesus have a sin nature?
So conversely:
If Jesus had a sin nature; we must be having a sin nature
If Jesus did not have a sin nature; we have no sin nature.
Now, name a verse in the Bible that explicitly says that Jesus had a sin nature!
Note that Hebrews 2:17 and Hebrews 4:15 do not say that Jesus had a sin nature.
All of mankind will die physically, without exception. This physical death comes to us because we are born mortal due to Adam's sin.
When Paul is saying, "the wages of sin is death" in Rom 6:23, he is not talking about the "sin nature that we (our flesh) inherited from Adam." He is talking about our willful sin. And the death he is talking about is spiritual death.
Romans 6:23 can be paraphrased as: The wages of (willful) sin is (spiritual) death.
So, physical death comes because of Adam. Jesus was also subject to that physical death when he became like us.
But spiritual death (the second death) comes because of our sin (done because of our will and volition).
No one can escape physical death. since we are mortal beings.
However, those who believe in Jesus, can be saved and thus avoid spiritual death.
When Paul is saying, "the wages of sin is death" in Rom 6:23, he is not talking about the "sin nature that we (our flesh) inherited from Adam." He is talking about our willful sin. And the death he is talking about is spiritual death.
Romans 6:23 can be paraphrased as: The wages of (willful) sin is (spiritual) death.
So, physical death comes because of Adam. Jesus was also subject to that physical death when he became like us.
But spiritual death (the second death) comes because of our sin (done because of our will and volition).
No one can escape physical death. since we are mortal beings.
However, those who believe in Jesus, can be saved and thus avoid spiritual death.
2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Jesus became sin for us! No, He did not have a sinful nature. But, Jesus took on our sins at the cross; Would He be any less our Savior if overcame sin that was attached to the flesh?
However, I do not be we are born in a state of sin. We all sin the moment we are able (regardless if it is attached to our bodies or if it is learned) - We do not require Adam's sin to condemn us, but we do need Jesus' perfection to be saved.
Adam's/Eve's sin put us into this "world" were sin abounds.
______________
I don't find the RCC's nonsense about Mary being born of a virgin to be worthy of a response. It is unfounded.
Luke 1:46-47
46And Mary said:
“My soul exalts the Lord, 47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary would herself proclaims the need for a Savior. She would not need a Savior if she had not sinned.
_______________
Because of the Original Sin Theory, the RCC has to dance around the fact that babies are stillborn or die before they are "baptized".
Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Jesus became sin for us! No, He did not have a sinful nature. But, Jesus took on our sins at the cross; Would He be any less our Savior if overcame sin that was attached to the flesh?
However, I do not be we are born in a state of sin. We all sin the moment we are able (regardless if it is attached to our bodies or if it is learned) - We do not require Adam's sin to condemn us, but we do need Jesus' perfection to be saved.
Adam's/Eve's sin put us into this "world" were sin abounds.
______________
I don't find the RCC's nonsense about Mary being born of a virgin to be worthy of a response. It is unfounded.
Luke 1:46-47
46And Mary said:
“My soul exalts the Lord, 47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary would herself proclaims the need for a Savior. She would not need a Savior if she had not sinned.
_______________
Because of the Original Sin Theory, the RCC has to dance around the fact that babies are stillborn or die before they are "baptized".
Verse 14 makes the statement that death prevailed even for those who did not sin in the manner of Adam. Pelagius' understanding was that Adam's sin had no bearing whatsoever upon any other human including the condemnation of death. He believed that all men started out as Adam and when each person sins, then death occurs.
It is an outright rejection of the fall as stated in scripture, but vs 14 is also an outright rejection of the Original Sin theory since we die even if we do not sin in the manner of Adam.
I might just as well add that those who follow the Original Sin theory, as did Anselm in his Satisfaction theory, make sin the ONLY problem man has. They look at the atonement as ONLY for sin and not the root cause of sin. If Christ did ONLY save us from sin we all would still die and die permanently since it is death that is our primary problem. Christ was Incarnated, became man, assumed our mortal nature so that we might have life and an eternal existence again.
Theologically, if we lived a perfect life we would still die permanently, and if we sinned, sin would be inconsequential since we have already been condemned to death.
It is an outright rejection of the fall as stated in scripture, but vs 14 is also an outright rejection of the Original Sin theory since we die even if we do not sin in the manner of Adam.
I might just as well add that those who follow the Original Sin theory, as did Anselm in his Satisfaction theory, make sin the ONLY problem man has. They look at the atonement as ONLY for sin and not the root cause of sin. If Christ did ONLY save us from sin we all would still die and die permanently since it is death that is our primary problem. Christ was Incarnated, became man, assumed our mortal nature so that we might have life and an eternal existence again.
Theologically, if we lived a perfect life we would still die permanently, and if we sinned, sin would be inconsequential since we have already been condemned to death.
It is quite clear that David saw his sins as being the consequence of being born through a sinful mother. In other words he inherited sin. If that is not what he meant then the words are redundant. You are ignoring what David meant in order to propagate your own heretical ideas. You are a Pelagian.
LOL you are interpreting it to fit your theory, Adam was mortal but he did not sin easily. So that shows you are wrong. A babe is not innocent. From birth it is selfish and will use any means to get its own way. It is estranged from God from the womb. It is quite clear what that means.
Because we are born sinful.
you mean it is very problematic for YOUR theory. It is no problem to us who see babies born sinful. And it is NOT a theory. It is SCRRIPTURE. More to be relied on than you.
I really am not interested in what Augustine taught. It is irrelevant to what the Scriptures teach, that all children are born sinful. We have no problem, We leave the problem to God.
The perverted nature IS the inheritance of sin.
LOL you are interpreting it to fit your theory, Adam was mortal but he did not sin easily. So that shows you are wrong. A babe is not innocent. From birth it is selfish and will use any means to get its own way. It is estranged from God from the womb. It is quite clear what that means.
Because we are born sinful.
you mean it is very problematic for YOUR theory. It is no problem to us who see babies born sinful. And it is NOT a theory. It is SCRRIPTURE. More to be relied on than you.
I really am not interested in what Augustine taught. It is irrelevant to what the Scriptures teach, that all children are born sinful. We have no problem, We leave the problem to God.
The perverted nature IS the inheritance of sin.