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H
oh DS....et tu?
i know DS.
surely, surely the Creator of the Universe having come as Jesus Christ does not now literally and physically enter the weak and beggarly elements (one which may or may not contain yeast, the other containing alcohol), things made by the hands of men (and purchased perhaps at the corner liquor store?)?
why must we claim to bring Him down into material elements? can't He be near while remaining God?
can't He be near without animism?
isn't His blessing on the bread and wine and the assembly enough?
i still love you DS.
zone.
i know DS.
surely, surely the Creator of the Universe having come as Jesus Christ does not now literally and physically enter the weak and beggarly elements (one which may or may not contain yeast, the other containing alcohol), things made by the hands of men (and purchased perhaps at the corner liquor store?)?
why must we claim to bring Him down into material elements? can't He be near while remaining God?
can't He be near without animism?
isn't His blessing on the bread and wine and the assembly enough?
i still love you DS.
zone.
Panis angelicus
Bread of Angels,
made the bread of men;
The Bread of heaven
puts an end to all symbols:
A thing wonderful!
The Lord becomes our food:
poor, a servant, and humble.
We beseech Thee,
Godhead One in Three
That Thou wilt visit us,
as we worship Thee,
lead us through Thy ways,
We who wish to reach the light
in which Thou dwellest.
Amen.
This is taken from "Sacris Solemniis", written by St. Thomas Aquinas before the year 1274. It is the Matins hymn for Corpus Christi, the great feast of the Body of Christ when the Church turns our attention to the great Gift of the Eucharist
Gregorian Chant Lyrics - Panis Angelicus - English translation benediction hymn adoration Blessed Sacrament
E
What does this have to do with what I asked? I never even mentioned Christ coming down.. How can anyone expect to have a conversation if no one answers questions. and when they attempt to. they do not even speak about what was being said. but turn the tide and make it something that was never asked.
E
No you don't have answers. You have not once explained why Jesus lied when he said whoever eats his flesh will NEVER die. live FOREVER. has ETERNAL life. will be RAISED, by him, not delievered to him. will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst. And jesus only gave one condition for all these things. Eat his flesh. The bread of life he came to give.
Why would jesus make these promises if they are not true.
why, if as you say there are conditions. did Jesus not make those conditions known in the passage?
Why would jesus make these promises if they are not true.
why, if as you say there are conditions. did Jesus not make those conditions known in the passage?
A
Legalism, in Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption. Its opposite is the doctrine of Sola Fide, which is the traditional Protestant view that believing in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for receiving eternal life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(theology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(theology)
H
Eucharist comes from the Greek word "Eucharistia" which means thanksgiivng. Every time we celebrate the Eucharist we give thanks and praise for all that God has done for us.
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus means to enter as fully as it is possible for human beings to do into the depths of the mystery of his self-giving love.
His body was stretched to breaking point on the cross His blood was poured out in sacrifice. True gift and utter love.
source: Redemptorist Press 2011
To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus means to enter as fully as it is possible for human beings to do into the depths of the mystery of his self-giving love.
His body was stretched to breaking point on the cross His blood was poured out in sacrifice. True gift and utter love.
source: Redemptorist Press 2011
1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with 1) thanksgiving, 5 because it is 2) consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1)
Original Word: εὐχαριστία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eucharistia
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-khar-is-tee'-ah)
Short Definition: thankfulness, gratitude
Definition: thankfulness, gratitude; giving of thanks, thanksgiving.
From eucharistos; gratitude; actively, grateful language (to God, as an act of worship) -- thankfulness, (giving of) thanks(-giving).
see GREEK eucharistos
εὐχαριστίᾳ (eucharistia) − 5 Occurrences
εὐχαριστίαν (eucharistian) − 4 Occurrences
εὐχαριστίας (eucharistias) − 5 Occurrencesεὐχαριστιῶν (eucharistiōn) − 1 Occurrence
2)
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify
Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
to sanctify
From hagios; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.
i.e:
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
~
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
[see 1 Timothy 4 above: "1) thanksgiving, because it is 2) consecrated by the word of God and prayer."]
Original Word: εὐχαριστέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eucharisteó
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-khar-is-teh'-o)
Short Definition:I thank, give thanks
Definition: I thank, give thanks; pass. 3 sing: is received with thanks.
Word Origin
from eucharistos
Definition
to be thankful
gave thanks (2), give...thanks (1), give thanks (8), given thanks (6), gives thanks (2), giving thanks (7), thank (9), thanked (1), thanks (1), thanks may be given (1).
From eucharistos; to be grateful, i.e. (actively) to express gratitude (towards); specially, to say grace at a meal -- (give) thank(-ful, -s).
see GREEK eucharistos
εὐχαριστεῖ (eucharistei) − 2 Occurrences
εὐχαριστεῖν (eucharistein) − 2 Occurrences
εὐχαριστεῖς (eucharisteis) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστεῖτε (eucharisteite) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστηθῇ (eucharistēthē − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστήσαντος (eucharistēsantos) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστήσας (eucharistēsas) − 9 Occurrences
εὐχαρίστησεν (eucharistēsen) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστοῦμεν (eucharistoumen) − 4 Occurrences
εὐχαριστοῦντες (eucharistountes) − 3 Occurrences
εὐχαριστῶ (eucharistō − 10 Occurrences
εὐχαριστῶν (eucharistōn) − 2 Occurrencesηὐχαρίστησαν (ēucharistēsan) − 1 Occurrence
NOTHING ABOUT TRANSUBSTANTIATION.
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with 1) thanksgiving, 5 because it is 2) consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
1)
2169. eucharistia
thankfulness, giving of thanks
thankfulness, giving of thanks
Original Word: εὐχαριστία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eucharistia
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-khar-is-tee'-ah)
Short Definition: thankfulness, gratitude
Definition: thankfulness, gratitude; giving of thanks, thanksgiving.
From eucharistos; gratitude; actively, grateful language (to God, as an act of worship) -- thankfulness, (giving of) thanks(-giving).
see GREEK eucharistos
εὐχαριστίᾳ (eucharistia) − 5 Occurrences
εὐχαριστίαν (eucharistian) − 4 Occurrences
εὐχαριστίας (eucharistias) − 5 Occurrencesεὐχαριστιῶν (eucharistiōn) − 1 Occurrence
2)
37. hagiazó
to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζωto make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify
Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
to sanctify
From hagios; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.
i.e:
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
~
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
[see 1 Timothy 4 above: "1) thanksgiving, because it is 2) consecrated by the word of God and prayer."]
2168. eucharisteó
to be thankful
to be thankful
Original Word: εὐχαριστέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eucharisteó
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-khar-is-teh'-o)
Short Definition:I thank, give thanks
Definition: I thank, give thanks; pass. 3 sing: is received with thanks.
Word Origin
from eucharistos
Definition
to be thankful
gave thanks (2), give...thanks (1), give thanks (8), given thanks (6), gives thanks (2), giving thanks (7), thank (9), thanked (1), thanks (1), thanks may be given (1).
From eucharistos; to be grateful, i.e. (actively) to express gratitude (towards); specially, to say grace at a meal -- (give) thank(-ful, -s).
see GREEK eucharistos
εὐχαριστεῖ (eucharistei) − 2 Occurrences
εὐχαριστεῖν (eucharistein) − 2 Occurrences
εὐχαριστεῖς (eucharisteis) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστεῖτε (eucharisteite) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστηθῇ (eucharistēthē
− 1 Occurrenceεὐχαριστήσαντος (eucharistēsantos) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστήσας (eucharistēsas) − 9 Occurrences
εὐχαρίστησεν (eucharistēsen) − 1 Occurrence
εὐχαριστοῦμεν (eucharistoumen) − 4 Occurrences
εὐχαριστοῦντες (eucharistountes) − 3 Occurrences
εὐχαριστῶ (eucharistō
− 10 Occurrencesεὐχαριστῶν (eucharistōn) − 2 Occurrencesηὐχαρίστησαν (ēucharistēsan) − 1 Occurrence
NOTHING ABOUT TRANSUBSTANTIATION.
Last edited:
37. hagiazó
to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζωto make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify
Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
to sanctify
From hagios; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.
i.e:
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
please how me anywhere sanctify means an alchemical transmutation of a sustance into something else (i.e.: wine turns into blood)
John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
"Hearer...could you move over a little please? you're squishing my grapes."
E
Yes, This is my body. And according to John six, Whoever eats his flesh will
1. Never hunger
2. Never thirst
According to these two. they no longer have to eat and drink because they will never hunger again.
3. Live forever
4. Never die
5, Has )present tense) Eternal life
According to these three. The person after he eats the flesh will live forever, and never die. Since we know everyone dies physically. Jesus is not talking about physical death here but spiritual death. Which means the person will never die spiritually. and live forever.
5. Will be raised on the last day
According to Scripture. Death and Hades is delivered to Christ for judgment. Which means anyone who is not "alive" in Christ, thus spiritually dead, will be delivered to him, not raised by him. So according to this. The person who eats his flesh is assured to be raised By Christ on the last day. This is the ressurection,. Which is only promised to those "in Christ" For those not in Christ will not be ressurected. But judged eternally.
Sorry. I don't see anywhere where those who partake of the Eucharist is promised any of these things. In fact. from what I have heard in here, in other chats, through other Catholics. And in reading about it. Those who partake of the Eucharist are not guaranteed nothing of which Christ promised. Period.
Conclusion.
The eucharist can not be the flesh spoken of in John six.
1. Never hunger
2. Never thirst
According to these two. they no longer have to eat and drink because they will never hunger again.
3. Live forever
4. Never die
5, Has )present tense) Eternal life
According to these three. The person after he eats the flesh will live forever, and never die. Since we know everyone dies physically. Jesus is not talking about physical death here but spiritual death. Which means the person will never die spiritually. and live forever.
5. Will be raised on the last day
According to Scripture. Death and Hades is delivered to Christ for judgment. Which means anyone who is not "alive" in Christ, thus spiritually dead, will be delivered to him, not raised by him. So according to this. The person who eats his flesh is assured to be raised By Christ on the last day. This is the ressurection,. Which is only promised to those "in Christ" For those not in Christ will not be ressurected. But judged eternally.
Sorry. I don't see anywhere where those who partake of the Eucharist is promised any of these things. In fact. from what I have heard in here, in other chats, through other Catholics. And in reading about it. Those who partake of the Eucharist are not guaranteed nothing of which Christ promised. Period.
Conclusion.
The eucharist can not be the flesh spoken of in John six.
E
You can say that all you want. But if the Eucharist does not give everyone who partakes of it what Christ promised, which I posted above, it is NOT the flesh of John 6 Like the Catholic church and other churches say it is.
It is however the flesh of the last supper. "Do this often in remembrance of me" it is the church's version of the OT passover meal However i like the way we do it. We have a large Supper and break bread and drink the cup like the NT church did it
It is however the flesh of the last supper. "Do this often in remembrance of me" it is the church's version of the OT passover meal
However i like the way we do it. We have a large Supper and break bread and drink the cup like the NT church did it
H
You can say that all you want. But if the Eucharist does not give everyone who partakes of it what Christ promised, which I posted above, it is NOT the flesh of John 6 Like the Catholic church and other churches say it is.
It is however the flesh of the last supper. "Do this often in remembrance of me" it is the church's version of the OT passover meal However i like the way we do it. We have a large Supper and break bread and drink the cup like the NT church did it
It is however the flesh of the last supper. "Do this often in remembrance of me" it is the church's version of the OT passover meal
However i like the way we do it. We have a large Supper and break bread and drink the cup like the NT church did it
but how do you explain the presence of God in a churchcatholics see three full manifestations of God at a service:
1) Spirit
2) body of believers
3) real bodily presence
we get the full quota
E
we are not too far apart but how do you explain the presence of God in a church
catholics see three full manifestations of God at a service:
1) Spirit
2) body of believers
3) real bodily presence
we get the full quota
but how do you explain the presence of God in a churchcatholics see three full manifestations of God at a service:
1) Spirit
2) body of believers
3) real bodily presence
we get the full quota
Real body presence I do not accept. God is spirit. He is omnipresent. thus he is everywhere. Not in a cup and bread of remembrance.
Either way. The flesh of John 6 is not the eucharist. Unless it gives ALL who eats what I posted.