The institution of the real presence of Jesus' body in the eucharist.

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zone

zone

Senior Member
#121
Jun 13, 2010
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#121
eternally-gratefull said:
Thats the problem with man made religion. They take things done or made by mere men, who need saved themselves I might add, and attribute them to God. It is a feel good religion. Because you feel like you have a hand in your own salvation. It is hard for men to think they can do nothing at all to save themselves and rely completely on a God they can't see to save them by doing an act they never witnessed.

Then again, Straight and narrow is the Gate, and FEW there are who enter it :(
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hey EG bud!
howzit going?
zone

(ps: Dan 9 fulfilled;))
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#122
#122
zone said:
hey EG bud!
howzit going?
zone

(ps: Dan 9 fulfilled;))
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Hey zone doing great after a week on the coast of NC :) Hows about you??

ps (dan 9 almost fulfilled) :p
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#123
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#123
zone said:
oh DS....et tu?:)

i know DS.

surely, surely the Creator of the Universe having come as Jesus Christ does not now literally and physically enter the weak and beggarly elements (one which may or may not contain yeast, the other containing alcohol), things made by the hands of men (and purchased perhaps at the corner liquor store?)?

why must we claim to bring Him down into material elements? can't He be near while remaining God?
can't He be near without animism?

isn't His blessing on the bread and wine and the assembly enough?

i still love you DS.
zone.
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We don't bring Him down. He chooses to come down of His divine free will as an expression of His everlasting love for us. He perpetually offers Himself to us, not just spiritually, but physically as well. How can you doubt Him when He says "This is my body"?
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#124
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#124
eternally-gratefull said:
Hey zone doing great after a week on the coast of NC :) Hows about you??

ps (dan 9 almost fulfilled) :p
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nice. i LOVE NC! love that whole area.

recently i watched on tv as they took away the ponies of Chincoteague.

just sobbing and sobbing - then enraged at it all: heartbreaking.
used to go and watch them for hours.


still had my souvenir of a bundle of grass until a few years ago...kept it in a Pennsylvania Dutch cookie jar....the joys of americana.

lost all that to gain My Lord, though...lost everything.
zonest.

(nope: the Most Holy anointed in the jordan...done deal):D
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#125
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#125
zone said:
so Christ's real BLOOD IS MIXED WITH ALCOHOL?
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Are you saying that Our Lord Jesus Christ, creator of Heaven and Earth, could not turn the wine into His Blood and at the same time have it appear to our senses as wine?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#126
#126
zone said:
nice. i LOVE NC! love that whole area.

recently i watched on tv as they took away the ponies of Chincoteague.

just sobbing and sobbing - then enraged at it all: heartbreaking.
used to go and watch them for hours.


still had my souvenir of a bundle of grass until a few years ago...kept it in a Pennsylvania Dutch cookie jar....the joys of americana.

lost all that to gain My Lord, though...lost everything.
zonest.

(nope: the Most Holy anointed in the jordan...done deal):D
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Yeah it was our 5th year to go there. Went to hattarus this year. Loved it!!

(nope, the prince who is to come has not come yet)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#127
#127
dscherck said:
We don't bring Him down. He chooses to come down of His divine free will as an expression of His everlasting love for us. He perpetually offers Himself to us, not just spiritually, but physically as well. How can you doubt Him when He says "This is my body"?
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Yes actually you do bring him down.

Because he said whoever eats this flesh will live forever. Have eternal life. Never hunger or thirst. be raised on the last day. And spend eternity with him in heaven.

Whoever eats the eucharist is not guaranteed any of the promises Jesus made. Thus calling him a liar and a thief
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#128
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#128
dscherck said:
We don't bring Him down. He chooses to come down of His divine free will as an expression of His everlasting love for us. He perpetually offers Himself to us, not just spiritually, but physically as well. How can you doubt Him when He says "This is my body"?
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hi DS.
okay bud. i know we differ here.

i don't doubt Him. He said that to the disciples before He had even died....did He mean at that Last Supper that the bread they ate then was already supernaturally His body? and the wine His Blood? if so, why did He have to die on the Cross? why not just perform transubstantiation around the globe for salvation?

Q: what does the NT use of the term The Body of Christ mean?

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

love zone.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#129
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#129
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes he did. Which is enough to prove this flesh jesus spoke of is not the same flesh he spoke of in John 6. Because in John 6 Jesus said we do not have to eat continually. Yet here Jesus says not only do continually, but often.

It makes no sense for Jesus to tell these people not to look for food which they must continue to eat, but food which endures forever, which one can eat and never again hunger or thirst. or die. Then tell them to eat it over and over like they do the other food. He would be contradicting himself.



This is not the point. The point is what you get when you eat the flesh. All the things I showed you, which I am still waiting for you to comment on. Why would you have to continue to eat food which endures forever, and gives us all the things Jesus spoke of? You would not need to eat it.

Again, this flesh is not the same as the cup and bread Jesus spoke of in his last meal. For jesus never promised anyone who ate this food any of the things he promised in John 6. Again Context is essential. Context does not support the eucharist.




Again this issue is eternal life. If eating the flesh of Christ will give whoever eats it eternal life and the promise they would never die. The flesh of John 6 is the gospel flesh. For it is what saves you. and makes you eternally right with God. The flesh of the last supper will assure no man eternal life. Not in this lifetime or the next.
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The flesh of John 6 is His literal flesh. And it does indeed give us eternal life. However, we still are living in the world of sin, and when we sin, we lose the gift of eternal life, just like our father Adam and mother Eve did. However, we can still regain that gift which Our Lord perpetually offers to us through penance and the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Throughout history there are recorded instances of people who have actually subsisted on just the Eucharist alone. I want to say Catherine of Sienna was one. I'll have to doublecheck.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#130
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#130
zone said:
hi DS.
okay bud. i know we differ here.

i don't doubt Him. He said that to the disciples before He had even died....did He mean at that Last Supper that the bread they ate then was already supernaturally His body? and the wine His Blood? if so, why did He have to die on the Cross? why not just perform transubstantiation around the globe for salvation?

Q: what does the NT use of the term The Body of Christ mean?

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

love zone.
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Are you saying that Our Lord is somehow bound by our understanding of time? And that since the sacrifice on the cross hadn't happened at the time of the Last Supper, He who created time itself, was unable to make present that sacrifice to the Apostles?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#131
#131
dscherck said:
The flesh of John 6 is His literal flesh. And it does indeed give us eternal life. However, we still are living in the world of sin, and when we sin, we lose the gift of eternal life, just like our father Adam and mother Eve did. However, we can still regain that gift which Our Lord perpetually offers to us through penance and the sacrament of the Eucharist.
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Since when does the word Eternal mean anything other than forever.

since when does the word never as in "never die" as jesus said whoever ate his flesh would never do. mean anything other than never.

why would jesus lie and make a promise which he knew he could not keep because his promise was dependant on our good works, or not failing to live a life free of sin. and if this was even so, why did Jesus not say so in John 6. since when do you make a promise which is conditional without making the conditions known at the time you make the promise?

if one of us would do this everyone would cry wolf and say we were deceiving people. In fact God warns against using deception and calls it a sin. so if God calls it sin, why would he do the very thing he tells us not to do?

Throughout history there are recorded instances of people who have actually subsisted on just the Eucharist alone. I want to say Catherine of Sienna was one. I'll have to doublecheck.
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People have lived on bread and water alone. this is proven. so it is no great feet that one can live on bread and wine alone.

what is important is is the person in heaven. did she recieve the promise Christ gave once they ate his true flesh. or did she have to keep eatin git over and over and never made it. making God a liar.

Just wondering.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#132
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#132
dscherck said:
Are you saying that Our Lord Jesus Christ, creator of Heaven and Earth, could not turn the wine into His Blood and at the same time have it appear to our senses as wine?
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hi DS
He could, but....does He? and why would He?
this coupled with the doctrine of infused righteousness cinches i could never come to your house to worship. but i'll leave you note, an invitation to visit at my house:D
your friend,
zone.
(i have more hair than that)
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#133
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#133
dscherck said:
The flesh of John 6 is His literal flesh. And it does indeed give us eternal life. However, we still are living in the world of sin, and when we sin, we lose the gift of eternal life, just like our father Adam and mother Eve did. However, we can still regain that gift which Our Lord perpetually offers to us through penance and the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Throughout history there are recorded instances of people who have actually subsisted on just the Eucharist alone. I want to say Catherine of Sienna was one. I'll have to doublecheck.
Click to expand...
what?
DS! come back! you're going further and further into mythical territory!
:(
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#134
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#134
dscherck said:
Are you saying that Our Lord is somehow bound by our understanding of time? And that since the sacrifice on the cross hadn't happened at the time of the Last Supper, He who created time itself, was unable to make present that sacrifice to the Apostles?
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come on DS.
this is very dangerous ground.

it happened on Calvary....not at the Table before, and not at a mass today.

zone.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#135
#135
Why is it everytime they are asked simple hard questions which must be answered they run??

I know if I could not answer questions like these I would question my own faith!!
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#136
#136
Dear Lord we ask for Your presence and truth and light to guide us and touch the hearts of all, open the eyes of the blind oh Lord to YOUR TRUTH for we wish to walk in YOUR ways and not the imaginings of our minds. In Jesus name we pray, Amen.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#137
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#137
eternally-gratefull said:
Yes actually you do bring him down.

Because he said whoever eats this flesh will live forever. Have eternal life. Never hunger or thirst. be raised on the last day. And spend eternity with him in heaven.

Whoever eats the eucharist is not guaranteed any of the promises Jesus made. Thus calling him a liar and a thief
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No, we don't. If you bother to actually look at what the Church teaches, you'll find the idea that WE bring Jesus down is pretty much condemned. Christ comes down of His free will. He participates in the celebration of the Eucharist.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#138
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#138
zone said:
hi DS
He could, but....does He? and why would He?
this coupled with the doctrine of infused righteousness cinches i could never come to your house to worship. but i'll leave you note, an invitation to visit at my house:D
your friend,
zone.
(i have more hair than that)
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He could, He does because He wills it and said He does it. Why doubt Him?
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#139
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#139
zone said:
come on DS.
this is very dangerous ground.

it happened on Calvary....not at the Table before, and not at a mass today.

zone.
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It did happen on Calvary. And that one instance is made present to us through the Sacrifice of the Mass. There is ONE sacrifice, that Our Lord makes present to us so that we too may participate with Him.
 
dscherck

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
#140
Aug 3, 2009
1,272
3
0
#140
eternally-gratefull said:
Why is it everytime they are asked simple hard questions which must be answered they run??

I know if I could not answer questions like these I would question my own faith!!
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We have answers, but they are words of Spirit. You must ignore the flesh that tells you that He was speaking figuratively and open your heart to the Holy Spirit so that you can accept this hard teaching. Our weak fleshly minds reject the idea that someone can offer us bread that is at the same time their own flesh. But things that are impossible for man are simple for God. Jesus can, and does offer Himself to us, not just in the Spirit, but in the Flesh as well.
 
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