The King James Only Debate

[The_Bible]

the kjv doesn't have every word God spoke.

we don't know what answers Jesus gave at the temple.



wouldn't it be cool to know what he said as he expounded on here?

ST. LUKE 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He gives us what is needed certainly, not found in these new bible versions where they take verses off.

 

[Dan_473]

He gives us what is needed certainly, not found in these new bible versions where they take verses off.

yes, God gives us what we need.

we don't have every word God spoke, yet we live.

 

[GaryA]

An individual [ who is, or who has been ] 'born-again' ( born "of the Spirit" - John 3 ) - [ is, or has been ] "sealed" with / by the Spirit of God.


Ephesians 1:

[SUP]12[/SUP] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [SUP]13[/SUP] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14[/SUP] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:

[SUP]30[/SUP] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


The "sense and tense" of the words "after that ye believed" in verse 13 above ( the whole phrase comes from a single word in the greek - meaning "to have faith" ) - is, in this context - "having believed" or "upon believing" - and, does not allow for a time span that would suggest that "ye were sealed" could occur "some time later"; rather, it indicates that "ye were sealed" occurs at the time of the believing.

( i.e. - in the English, the word 'after' would be considered to be in a 'condition-based' sense rather than in a 'time-based' sense. )

In other words, we are 'born-again' at the time we [ truly ] believe and [ place our ] trust in God and His Christ.

The word 'sealed' in the above verses is a form of "marked" - as in - upon believing / trusting in God / Christ - God 'seals' / 'marks' / 'makes-a-claim-upon' us ( for Himself ) - and "keeps" us ( by His Holy Spirit ) "unto the day of redemption"...


"Beautiful, isn't it...?"

 

[p_rehbein]

yes, God gives us what we need.

we don't have every word God spoke, yet we live.

'n' sometimes He gives us what we want............just to teach us a lesson!

 

[GaryA]

Perhaps this chart may be useful in this discussion? :

 

[trofimus]

We need to eat it clearly says not of bread ALONE and it adds the word of God. Idk what your reply means.

1 Peter (1:23-25) - Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

What seed are you born with? Is your seed corrupted by words that are truth or false? Your not defending a specific Bible but rather ALL other bibles I at least say it is the KJV. Your a liberal.

Can you exactly show me how not knowing whether some king was 42 or 20 year old will change your incorruptible nature to be corruptible? Thank you.

Then we can discuss it further. Until then you are only quoting verses but giving them wrong meanings.

 

[Dan_473]

I have a step son and I am his parent but I am not his father. There is a huge difference beween Joseph being a parent to Jesus verses Jesus being his father.

if you mean that Joseph shouldn't be called Jesus' father, this passage is interesting

ST. LUKE 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

 

[BigD9832]

This is for the man who thinks there are no "mistakes" in the KJV.


Judgment is about God setting what is wrong to right


krisis - decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law)


It seems that in an effort to support their Doctrine of Hell the church, the King James version has changed the meanings of several verses from a neutral meaning 'judgment' to 'condemnation' and 'damnation.'


Thus word 'judgment' itself has become a very unstable word in our language. It has come to mean punishment, not it's original use of a neutral process. The Authorized version renders the word 'judgment as 'condemnation' and 'damnation' about 13 times.


Take this example from...


AV Deut 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment...


CLV Deut 1:17 You shall not recognize faces with partiality in judgment...


The Authorized version seems a bit more harsh, where a closer rendering encourages a more neutral attitude.


Examples like these are spread throughout the Scriptures.


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Here are examples of how the term 'judgment' got changed into 'damnation'...


CLV Matt 23:33 "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of Gehenna?


AV Matt 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


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CLV Mark 12:40 who are devouring the homes of widows, and for a pretense are prolix in praying. These will be getting more excessive judgment."


AV Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.


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CLV Luke 20:47 who are devouring the homes of widows and, for a pretense, are prolix in praying. These will be getting more excessive judgment."


AV Lk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shalule receive greater damnation.


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CLV John 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.


AV John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


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CLV Rom 3:8 and why not say, according as we are calumniated and according as any/some are averring that we are saying, that "We should be doing evil that good may be coming?" whose judgment is fair.


AV Rom 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.


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CLV Rom 13:2 so that he who is resisting an authority has withstood God's mandate. Now those who have withstood, will be getting judgment for themselves,


AV Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.


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CLV 1Cor 11:29 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord.


AV 1Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


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In many cases the King James version represents judgment as a past event and damnation as a result.


Judgment of the nations does not begin until Jesus Christ returns. The nations nor individuals have not been judged so there has been no damnation.


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Here are examples of how the term 'judgment' got changed into 'condemnation'...


CLV Luke 23:40 Yet answering, the other one, rebuking him, averred, "Yet you are not fearing God, seeing that you are in the same judgment!


AV Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?


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CLV John 3:19 Now this is the judging: that the light has come into the world, and men love the darkness rather than the light, for their acts were wicked.


AV John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


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CLV John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.


AV John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


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CLV 1Cor 11:34 Now if anyone may be hungry, let him eat in/at home, that you may not be coming together into/for judgment. Now the rest I shall be prescribing as soon as I should be coming.


AV 1Cor 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.


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CLV 1Tim 3:6 no novice, lest, being conceited, he should be falling in into the judgment of the Adversary.


AV 1Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.


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CLV James 3:1 Not many should become teachers, my brethren, being aware that we shall be getting greater judgment.


AV James 3:1 . My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.


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CLV James 5:12 Now before all, my brethren, do not be swearing, neither by heaven, nor by the earth, nor any other oath. Now let your "yes" be "yes," and "not" be "not," lest you should be falling under judging.


AV James 5:12 . But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


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CLV Jude 1:4 For any/some human/men slip in who long ago have been written beforehand into/for this judgment; irreverent, bartering the grace of our God into/for wantonness, and disowning our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.


AV Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


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Again judgment seems to be in the past as condemnation, a result of judging, replaces this process.


Even in the United States an effort is made to provide a fair and just judgment for it's citizens, even in it's imperfect state. How much more fair would be God's judgment?

 

[John146]

if you mean that Joseph shouldn't be called Jesus' father, this passage is interesting

ST. LUKE 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Mary was wrong and Jesus, ever so kindly, corrects her.

Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Jesus, referring to His Father, God the Father and not Joseph.

 

[BigD9832]

So if I were accused of speeding, and I received a traffic ticket from a police officer, I would get a court date. This means that I would (and presumably the police officer) would appear in front of a judge and he/she would decide if I was guilty of speeding based on the facts presented to him/her in this court.

The decision of my guilt has not yet been made. I was to stand in court and be judged.

Condemnation and damnation means that I have already been found guilty, before I go to court.

_____Strong's_____


G2917 krima kree'-mah
from G2919;


a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")).

According to Strong's the judging involves a decision. Which means this decision has not yet been made.

The KJV is way off on these verses.

 

[BigD9832]

It seems to me that the best way to believe that the KJV has no "mistakes" is to simply ignore them.

Perhaps they are not "mistakes" after all, but deliberate.

 

[KJV1611]

Can you exactly show me how not knowing whether some king was 42 or 20 year old will change your incorruptible nature to be corruptible? Thank you.

Then we can discuss it further. Until then you are only quoting verses but giving them wrong meanings.

I can show you... due to one "mistake" in the bible we now can discount anything we don't believe or don't understand as an obvious error. We are now wide open to make the bible say what ever we want it to say.

 

[Stephen63]

It seems to me that the best way to believe that the KJV has no "mistakes" is to simply ignore them.

Perhaps they are not "mistakes" after all, but deliberate.

Most of them are.

 

[BigD9832]

And the KJV-onlyists keep on ignoring the facts.

 

[John146]

I can show you... due to one "mistake" in the bible we now can discount anything we don't believe or don't understand as an obvious error. We are now wide open to make the bible say what ever we want it to say.

If there's one error, only one, then it's not the word of truth. This would mean we do not have something certain to read, study and trust, and to stand up against the world's view.

 

[KJV1611]

if you mean that Joseph shouldn't be called Jesus' father, this passage is interesting

ST. LUKE 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Interesting how Jesus corrected Mary's error in the next verse.

Luke 2:49 KJV
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

 

[trofimus]

I can show you... due to one "mistake" in the bible we now can discount anything we don't believe or don't understand as an obvious error. We are now wide open to make the bible say what ever we want it to say.

Ok, if I understand you correctly, we must have the perfect 66 books of the Bible even though we do not need for example half of them.

Just because of the principle that if they would have some error, we cannot rely also on the rest we actually need.

Well, I think that God always preserves what is needed for His people in a specific time. We dont have the perfect Bible because we do not need it. And on the other hand, we have everything we do need today (not talking only about Bible, but about everything).

 

[Dino246]

He gives us what is needed certainly, not found in these new bible versions where they take verses off.

Take... verses.. off... WHAT? Off the KJV? Once again, the KJV is NOT the standard. If KJV-only proponents could just grasp this one simple fact (or at least refrain from trying to argue that it is), it would significantly diminish the divisive rhetoric.

 

[BigD9832]

And the KJV-Onlyist keep on ignoring the facts.

 

[KJV1611]

So if I were accused of speeding, and I received a traffic ticket from a police officer, I would get a court date. This means that I would (and presumably the police officer) would appear in front of a judge and he/she would decide if I was guilty of speeding based on the facts presented to him/her in this court.

The decision of my guilt has not yet been made. I was to stand in court and be judged.

Condemnation and damnation means that I have already been found guilty, before I go to court.

_____Strong's_____


G2917 krima kree'-mah
from G2919;


a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ("crime")).

According to Strong's the judging involves a decision. Which means this decision has not yet been made.

The KJV is way off on these verses.

I think you have completey missed the point of the stroy. Both of the malefactors were CONDEMNED, that's why they were being crucified. The 2nd malefactor was rebuking the 1st malefactor because they were guilty but JESUS WAS NOT.

Luke 23:40-41 KJV
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? [41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.