The Lake of Fire

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MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#81
I don't normally enjoy doom, but death is destroyed in the lake of fire and a world with no more death is a good thing.

I once thought of the lake of fire only as a place, but I'm not sure that's right. I think its possible the lake of fire is an event, judgment day, where the fire present is the very presence of God himself.

What started me thinking of this was Paul's description of Jesus destroying antichrist,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

But then I remembered how Rev.19:20 says the antichrist is "thrown into" the lake of fire. To me, these two descriptions are synonymous.

There are other scriptures which say in effect that God is surrounded by a storm of fire that burns up his enemies and Jesus comes in a fire that sounds like its all consuming. Like all purifying maybe.
The lake of fire is an actual place.

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus descended in to the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended.

So hell is in the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus went to conquer death, and hell, which He was given the keys of hell, and death, to release the sinners from it, and those that accept Him while alive to not go there.

The Bible says the earth shall be burned up, and all that is therein, for the earth is tainted with sin, and all sin must be purged with fire.

The Bible says that hell, and death, were thrown in to the lake of fire, so if hell is in the lower parts of the earth, and the earth shall be burned up, then the earth shall be thrown in to the lake of fire.

Which all the sinners are in the lower parts of the earth, and when the devils are cast to earth in the future, and they deceive all people that do not love God, the earth becomes the habitation of devils, which is their holding cell and they are confined to the earth.
 
Sep 25, 2018
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#82
This statement does not add up. Because another way to describe eternity is unending time and a synonym for eternity is perpetuity.

A reference to Matt 25.46 there are two words used together ".....everlasting punishment......"

Going by strong's concordance, the word for everlasting is G166 aionios and punishment is G2851 kolasis, and going by the explanation given in strong's concordance, "everlasting punishment" can also be translated as "perpetual penal infliction"
However, I don't think that this explains the other verses about the wicked being destroyed "root and branch," becoming "ashes," and experiencing death (opposite of immortality) of the soul. (Malachi 4:1, 3; Eze. 18:4; 1 Tim. 6:16; John 3:16). A Syrian man once told me that in the Middle East, his father would tell him to burn some sticks and brush "forever and ever," which meant to burn it completely, until it was done. I believe that this is how the writers in the Bible were using the terms "forever" and "everlasting." They were saying that the punishment would be utter and complete, and death would be eternal with no revocation. To me it makes sense.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
757
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#83
However, I don't think that this explains the other verses about the wicked being destroyed "root and branch," becoming "ashes," and experiencing death (opposite of immortality) of the soul. (Malachi 4:1, 3; Eze. 18:4; 1 Tim. 6:16; John 3:16). A Syrian man once told me that in the Middle East, his father would tell him to burn some sticks and brush "forever and ever," which meant to burn it completely, until it was done. I believe that this is how the writers in the Bible were using the terms "forever" and "everlasting." They were saying that the punishment would be utter and complete, and death would be eternal with no revocation. To me it makes sense.
There are many idioms in Scripture. The difficulty lies in determining the literal from allegory. Unless one can prove otherwise, Scripture is to be taken as literal, with one meaning, but many applications.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#84
It is like the rich man that told Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of the place of torment he was at, but Abraham said they have Moses, and the prophets, the word of God, for if they do not believe them, they will not believe even though one rose from the dead, and told them.
This is one reason the story doesnt fit the passage. The Pharisees weren't arguing about eternal torment. Jesus told the story to show that Moses testified of his resurrection. Also, "Abraham's bosom" isn't unique to Luke. It's mentioned in Jewish lore and if the Pharisees knew about it, it's possible Jesus used it for that reason.

Hell is already described in the Bible, that it is hot, and dark, and the wicked will not see anything for it is reserved for them the blackness of darkness forever.
But the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus far off.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
14,300
6,664
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#85
This is one reason the story doesnt fit the passage. The Pharisees weren't arguing about eternal torment. Jesus told the story to show that Moses testified of his resurrection. Also, "Abraham's bosom" isn't unique to Luke. It's mentioned in Jewish lore and if the Pharisees knew about it, it's possible Jesus used it for that reason.
So what are you trying to say? That the narrative of Lazarus is NOT a divine revelation of the afterlife in Hades? And why do you think that Jewish lore has any relevance to Christian truth? It should be enough that Christ Himself (who is God) told us the truth about the afterlife.

At the present time Hades (called "hell" mistakenly) is simply a holding place for the unsaved. The Lake of Fire is their final destination according to Scripture. You can believe it or disbelieve, but you can't get around it.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,532
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#86
The lake of fire is an actual place.
Then tell me why 2Thes.2:8 says the beast is destroyed by the presence of Jesus. If the beast is destroyed by coming into contact with, or "being cast into" the lake of fire as Rev.19 says, why couldn't it be a way of describing the very presence of God?

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth.
Jesus descended in to the lower parts of the earth, and then ascended.

So hell is in the lower parts of the earth.[/quote]I think "hell" in this respect means the grace.

Jesus went to conquer death, and hell, which He was given the keys of hell, and death, to release the sinners from it, and those that accept Him while alive to not go there.
Brother, Jesus conquered death by conquering the cause of death, which us sin.

The Bible says the earth shall be burned up, and all that is therein, for the earth is tainted with sin, and all sin must be purged with fire.

The Bible says that hell, and death, were thrown in to the lake of fire, so if hell is in the lower parts of the earth, and the earth shall be burned up, then the earth shall be thrown in to the lake of fire.
Sin is purged by Christ in us. The bible says,

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psa.50:3

This seems to be describing the 2nd coming of Jesus in fire.

Which all the sinners are in the lower parts of the earth, and when the devils are cast to earth in the future, and they deceive all people that do not love God, the earth becomes the habitation of devils, which is their holding cell and they are confined to the earth.
I think we should interpret the Book of Revelation as ongoing, not strictly future.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#87
So what are you trying to say? That the narrative of Lazarus is NOT a divine revelation of the afterlife in Hades?
I think it's possible Jesus used a story about "Abraham's bosom", a place in Jewish belief, but not one they consider divinely inspired, where sinners are on one side and the blessed on the other.

And why do you think that Jewish lore has any relevance to Christian truth?
I don't think it does. I think Jesus could have used a story they were familiar with as a parable, only in Jewish myth, I believe Abraham is seen as an advocate for people on the suffering side, maybe like purgatory. Not really sure.

It should be enough that Christ Himself (who is God) told us the truth about the afterlife.
But Jesus wasn't telling the story to show never ending torment. He told the story to show the religious leaders didn't believe their own scriptures, which have nothing to do either Moses or the Prophets talking about never ending torture in the afterlife, but everything to do with the Messiah. And I don't see Jesus, who is God, allowing a place where torture is unending.

At the present time Hades (called "hell" mistakenly) is simply a holding place for the unsaved. The Lake of Fire is their final destination according to Scripture. You can believe it or disbelieve, but you can't get around it.
I believe all evil and death is destroyed by the presence of Jesus in our lives.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
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Anacortes, WA
#88
I agree with Journeyman in saying that the eternal punishment doesn't need to mean eternal torture. The Bible says:

“ ‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up ... that will leave them neither root nor branch. ... You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, 3).

That sounds like the wicked will be burnt completely until there is nothing left but ashes. Their punishment will be for eternity, but not the suffering and perpetual existence.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4), not live forever and ever. Only God has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16), and everlasting life is a gift of salvation (John 3:16).
Just for clarification...The "Day" mentioned here in Malachi 4 is The Day of the Lord.
This is in reference to the aftermath of the first 4 of the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation ch 8 (During the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation)
It will be God's wrath upon the earth, not man's. But it will look like a nuclear war has taken place.
It says that God will cause 1/3 of the earth to burn...hence the ashes.

Unfortunately, this reference to Micah has nothing to do with this subject.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
342
83
#89
10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."


This a proper translation from the Greek to which Revelation's was written in.

Notice:
All 3 verses make it clear that you are cast into. This is a PHYSICAL ACTION, not a spiritual separation.

Verse 10 also makes it clear, the Adversary and cast will be tormented daily forever. Remember the Legion of Demons Yeshua allowed to enter into the herd of swine? They specially asked Yeshua, Are you here to torment us before the APPOINTED TIME? So obviously, the Adversary, the fallen angels, the Beast and false prophet will not only be physically cast into the Lake of Fire, but will also be physically tormented daily for all eternity.

The correct translation details specifically that there is going to be a physical casting into the Lake of Fire, and there will be tormenting going on daily for all ETERNITY.


Try using the correct TRANSLATION before creating a false idea concerning if the Lake of Fire is real or not.

You CANNOT be physically cast into something unless that something is REAL!!

The correct translation claims the Lake of Fire is definitely REAL!!
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#90
Just for clarification...The "Day" mentioned here in Malachi 4 is The Day of the Lord.
This is in reference to the aftermath of the first 4 of the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation ch 8 (During the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation)
It will be God's wrath upon the earth, not man's. But it will look like a nuclear war has taken place.
It says that God will cause 1/3 of the earth to burn...hence the ashes.

Unfortunately, this reference to Micah has nothing to do with this subject.
Compare what Malachi says with what Jesus said,

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch Jn.15:6

It's disbelief in Jesus that uproots people, so "The day of the Lord" must include Jesus's coming here the first time. Look at this,

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal.3:2

Jesus came here to "refine", or purify, to clean us, make "our robes white". The people who don't "abide" this are unbelievers. Unrepentant sinners.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
1,532
623
113
#91
10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

This a proper translation from the Greek to which Revelation's was written in.

Notice:
All 3 verses make it clear that you are cast into. This is a PHYSICAL ACTION, not a spiritual separation.
Death is a state people are in, like "the grave" (hell). Like the 4 horsemen, thing like famine, war, etc aren't physically cast anywhere. They're destroyed "in Christ". Right now by our faith in Jesus, death has no power over us.

Verse 10 also makes it clear, the Adversary and cast will be tormented daily forever. Remember the Legion of Demons Yeshua allowed to enter into the herd of swine? They specially asked Yeshua, Are you here to torment us before the APPOINTED TIME? So obviously, the Adversary, the fallen angels, the Beast and false prophet will not only be physically cast into the Lake of Fire, but will also be physically tormented daily for all eternity.

The correct translation details specifically that there is going to be a physical casting into the Lake of Fire, and there will be tormenting going on daily for all ETERNITY.

Try using the correct TRANSLATION before creating a false idea concerning if the Lake of Fire is real or not.

You CANNOT be physically cast into something unless that something is REAL!!

The correct translation claims the Lake of Fire is definitely REAL!!
I believe the lake of fire is real. I think it's describing the effect the judgement seat of Christ has on wicked spirits and unrepentant people.

When the demons ask Jesus, "Have you come here to torment us before the time?" And then the Bible tells us they are "tormented day and night forever and ever", I believe they're being tormented because what they did day and night throughout the ages is being exposed. The truth of their real nature is seen. Satan thinks of himself as mighty and his followers both demons and people do too. This world sees strength in terms of the flesh, but when the wicked face Jesus on judgment day, there will be no escape. They will be seen as the weak cowards they are.

For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. Jn.3:20

Instead of been seen as someone to be worshipped, Satan is exposed as the miserable nothing he really is.
 
Sep 25, 2018
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#92
There are many idioms in Scripture. The difficulty lies in determining the literal from allegory. Unless one can prove otherwise, Scripture is to be taken as literal, with one meaning, but many applications.
That's why when the Bible says that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die," (Eze. 18:4), and when Jesus says that the righteous receive "everlasting life," while the wicked "perish" (John 3:16), I believe that this is a literal, permanent, everlasting death--not an everlasting life of torture.

In Genesis, God told Adam and Eve that if they disobeyed, they would die. But through the serpent the devil told them, "you shall not surely die" (Gen. 3:4). If only God possesses immortality (which He gives as a gift to the righteous), and Jesus says that He will "destroy both soul and body in hell," (Matt. 10:28), then what can be left of the wicked? I believe that God wants to expunge sin from the universe, not keep remnants of it around for eternity. (Is. 13:9, Nahum 1:9-10) In an entirely new heaven and earth, where there will be no pain and crying (Rev. 21:1, 4), I don't see room for God to keep a dungeon of torture victims for all time.
 
Sep 25, 2018
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#93
Just for clarification...The "Day" mentioned here in Malachi 4 is The Day of the Lord.
This is in reference to the aftermath of the first 4 of the Trumpet Judgments of Revelation ch 8 (During the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation)
It will be God's wrath upon the earth, not man's. But it will look like a nuclear war has taken place.
It says that God will cause 1/3 of the earth to burn...hence the ashes.

Unfortunately, this reference to Micah has nothing to do with this subject.
I think we have different ideas of what the "Day of the Lord" is. From what I gather, it was used by Old Testament prophets to refer to a day of judgment for particular nations, and that it also points forward to the Second Coming and the ultimate Judgment Day of the whole world, when God saves the righteous, gives His final verdict, and appoints the wicked to destruction. (Is. 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Pet. 3:10) Therefore, I believe the Day of the Lord in Malachi is referring to the time when God judges and appoints the wicked to punishment.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
10,668
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#94
What about the Dead Sea. Could that be the lake of fire...? It is characterised as a bottomless pit and a lake surrounded on all sides by land as a lake is. I dont know if there volcanic activity beneath but anything could happen. Apparently its on the the site of the former Sodom and Gommorah which was totally destroyed by fire and brimstone.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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#95
Its also in the lowest part of the earth of Israel i mean its below sea level.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
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#96
I would claim it is on the NEW EARTH to come:

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
797
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Anacortes, WA
#97
Compare what Malachi says with what Jesus said,

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch Jn.15:6

It's disbelief in Jesus that uproots people, so "The day of the Lord" must include Jesus's coming here the first time. Look at this,

But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal.3:2

Jesus came here to "refine", or purify, to clean us, make "our robes white". The people who don't "abide" this are unbelievers. Unrepentant sinners.
The Day of the Lord spans from the beginning of the tribulation through the end of the Millennial Kingdom.
The Day of the Lord begins with wrath and judgment. It's description is all over the Bible. We are currently in the Church age/the age of grace/the times of the Gentiles. The Chuch is not destined for wrath (Romans 5).
As soon as the rapture takes place, The Day of The Lord begins with the Tribulation
 

Diakonos

Active member
Jan 19, 2019
797
232
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Anacortes, WA
#98

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,143
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74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#99
Instead of been seen as someone to be worshipped, Satan is exposed as the miserable nothing he really is.
Yes sir, Satan will be brought down and the world will be astonished at how little power he had to accomplish that.

Isa. 14:12-17 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?"

Satan and his demons are just tools for us to overcome. That said, he runs this world system by leading men unbeknownst to them to do his will. He accused mankind as not ever able to obey God. Christ showed him otherwise, thus, defeating him.

1 John 3:8
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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2 Peter 3 clarifies the 4 "Day"s (seasons) that are ahead of us.

The Day of judgment
The Day of The Lord
The Day of God
The Day of Eternity

Here's a great explanation (with all Biblical references) of it if anyone is interested in learning...

https://www.bridgechristianfellowship.com/media-library/?book_id=61&book_name=2 Peter

after you paste the link and search, click on the message titled "4 Days to eternity"
Actually, PAUL and PETER tie the three together....

Day of the Lord
Day of Christ
Day of GOD

Jesus is all three, Lord, Christ and God.....and we can see all three days initiated at the 7th trump in Revelation.....it states that when the 7th angel begins to sound TIME shall be no more and we see the three things take place....

The Day of the Lord commences as JESUS seizes control of all earthly Kingdoms
The Day of Christ commences as JESUS rewards the saints, prophets and those that fear God
the Day of God commences as JESUS pours out his wrath on the nations gathered under the beast

My view anyway....