The Law Debacle Resolved

[prove-all]

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof;

[because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant.]

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:
therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.


21And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host
of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts
shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof;

[because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant.]

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:
therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.


21And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host
of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit,
and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts
shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

James 2:10

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Sadly james states how little it takes to be a part of that wrath, be among those prisoners.

We need to look deep inside, And consider the facts.

How well have I done? It is those who humble themselves, and admit guilt and keep running the race because they have not yet obtained it (perfection according to Gods commands) who live for God, and in Gods power. Because they have been loved by God, who will be exempt from that wrath and gathering.

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

[Brother_Don]

to hear means (to do). Don't be hearers only, but doers as well.

 

[prove-all]

Because thou hast kept the word of [my patience],
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,

which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they [that keep] the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus.​

​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to hear means (to do). Don't be hearers only, but doers as well.

Yes, But you missed a part that must occur in between hearing and doing.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

if there is no faith, There can appear to be doing, but there is no power in doing because faith is what makes us pure. Not doing..

The doing is an outcome of faith. As james said, what good is it is we CLAIM we have faith, (hearing, But have no works, our faith is dead (non existent)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Because thou hast kept the word of [my patience],
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,

which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they [that keep] the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus.
​

​

I can keep all the commands I want,

If I do not have the faith and love which comes from Jesus alone, I will not be exempt from that hour of temtpation, but I will partake of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

where does it say a thing here about obeying God and doing good works?

The people who has done this will do these things (because they have TRUE faith in God)

so not sure what all the arguing is about.. who are those who does what God wants, Those who LOVE HIM/

who are those who love him THOSE HE HAS LOVED FIRST..

 

[prove-all]

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

where does it say a thing here about obeying God and doing good works?

The people who has done this will do these things (because they have TRUE faith in God)

so not sure what all the arguing is about.. who are those who does what God wants, Those who LOVE HIM/

who are those who love him THOSE HE HAS LOVED FIRST..

this argument has been going on for some time in history now.

God put his laws in our hearts, he made it honorable.


the whole law issue boils down to the Sabbath vs sunday contraversy.


God is not forcing you or anyone now to keep it, but he will in the future.


I have never said someone would loose salvation for not keeping it,

but the bible talks about blessings given for honoring something

that God blessed and santified from the beggining, and made Holy forever

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

the whole law issue boils down to the Sabbath vs sunday contraversy.

No, the issue boils down to the sabbath, period. Sunday has nothing to do with it. Sabbath and law keepers just can't see how the righteousness required by the 4th commandment is fulfilled by faith.

 

[KennethC]

this argument has been going on for some time in history now.

God put his laws in our hearts, he made it honorable.


the whole law issue boils down to the Sabbath vs sunday contraversy.


God is not forcing you or anyone now to keep it, but he will in the future.


I have never said someone would loose salvation for not keeping it,

but the bible talks about blessings given for honoring something

that God blessed and santified from the beggining, and made Holy forever

No the issue comes from those who pull verses out to make them stand alone to build doctrine off of instead of continuing to read on and use the whole chapter, and all the Word of God for understanding.

John 5:29

"And come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of live, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

 

[PeterJens]

so not sure what all the arguing is about..

I met a young evangelist on the street once. He was so geared up to meet people who did not believe he kept on trying to convert me.

It appears some have decided a large number of people intend to not to live righteously because it is not an essential part of being a christian. I have met christians who are happy to live together, have children, change partners and not have any problem with this. Or stealing things from your work, or tax evasion etc. not issues of merit.

Other groups have said tithing to the church, the local church is a command that must be followed, and the church then decides how to apply the money.

But in a forum such as this it is difficult to identify what people hold to.

One young man I spoke to, married a loose woman, who continued to sleep around and at first he saw no issues with this.
Apart from a simple emotional survival roller coaster, sin was not being faced head on.
Some pastors are saying pornography is fine to help frustrated husbands stay faithful. Do not confront your husband, but be sympathetic.

So being honest and frank, when you get down to realities, this theology and how you live pure, holy, righteous lives is a problem, and people are not openly dealing with the failure or saying this is not how God intends us to live.

But maybe things have been too general and not specific ie. adultery is adultery, fornication is fornication, theft is theft, lying is lying, all are sin, unrighteous and wrong. But it seems like people do not know the next level down, why are they wrong?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this argument has been going on for some time in history now.

God put his laws in our hearts, he made it honorable.


the whole law issue boils down to the Sabbath vs sunday contraversy.


God is not forcing you or anyone now to keep it, but he will in the future.

Actually this is not the case either. Many people keep the sabbath but have never met Christ in a personal way (they may know of him, or know who he is, or even believe he was the son of God who died on the cross for sins.) But they have never met him as an adopted child of God.

Again, Did Jesus say people were exempt from condemnation because they were good people. or did all these works? Was John the Apostle that far away from Jesus that he made a mistake?

I have never said someone would loose salvation for not keeping it,

and I never claimed you have. I was just asking questions, not assuming anything, we have enough of people who assume things and never ask or answer questions in here,

but the bible talks about blessings given for honoring something

Yep it does. And if your not a child of God. (unrighteous) these are not for you. your under the law.

If you are a child of God (righteous), then the law was not made for you, and God has shown in his word how you do the things to recieve those rewards.

that God blessed and santified from the beggining, and made Holy forever

That would be all of Gods word, taking in context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I met a young evangelist on the street once. He was so geared up to meet people who did not believe he kept on trying to convert me.

It appears some have decided a large number of people intend to not to live righteously because it is not an essential part of being a christian. I have met christians who are happy to live together, have children, change partners and not have any problem with this. Or stealing things from your work, or tax evasion etc. not issues of merit.

Other groups have said tithing to the church, the local church is a command that must be followed, and the church then decides how to apply the money.

But in a forum such as this it is difficult to identify what people hold to.

One young man I spoke to, married a loose woman, who continued to sleep around and at first he saw no issues with this.
Apart from a simple emotional survival roller coaster, sin was not being faced head on.
Some pastors are saying pornography is fine to help frustrated husbands stay faithful. Do not confront your husband, but be sympathetic.

So being honest and frank, when you get down to realities, this theology and how you live pure, holy, righteous lives is a problem, and people are not openly dealing with the failure or saying this is not how God intends us to live.

But maybe things have been too general and not specific ie. adultery is adultery, fornication is fornication, theft is theft, lying is lying, all are sin, unrighteous and wrong. But it seems like people do not know the next level down, why are they wrong?

God gave standards, there is no denying those standards, We can water down those standards, Make those standards lower so we can live up to those standards, But what we say does not matter, What God says is.

1. God gave a standard (perfection)
2. No man can live up to that standard, nor will they until the ressurection
3. Every man should strive in the power of God to seek to live a life which is holy and set apart. But not get so proud he thinks he has lived those standards.

Legalism and licentious behavior has been around since long before Christ even walked the earth as God man, It was present in the church during the 1st century after Jesus left this earth, and has been around since that day, It will be around until Jesus returns. and he sets the law nd rules wiht a rod of Iron.

Until then, We have to deal with it, fight the licentious, but also fight the legalist, Who wants the world to think sin is ok. As long as it is the sin I am doing, But these rules over here, These are no nos (and they all have different standard of what ok sins are and what no no sins are.

Sadly, The licentious will fight against anyone who confronts them, As will the legalist.

and the people stuck in the middle are us who love God, are grteful to God. who want to run the race, who want to love and serve others.. And this battle will continue,

but we still have to fight for truth, let God overpower satan and his gates of hell. for God said the gates of hell will never prevail.

 

[KohenMatt]

Grace, Law? What about it? How do we resolve it.

KennethC gave me and all a reminder in Just-Me's wonderful thread on PHARISEES.

Here is the solution.

Do what Jesus teaches and did.

If you feel a need to argue this, you need His help right away.

Thank you Just-Me and KennethC..........

If you do and teach what Jesus taught and did, you'll be the greatest in the Kingdom.

If you don't, you'll be the least.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you do and teach what Jesus taught and did, you'll be the greatest in the Kingdom.

If you don't, you'll be the least.

Paul taught against physical circumcision and said it was nothing. Circumcision wasn't a least commandment of the law; it was a foundational commandment. Disobeying it cut one off from Israel and GOD. Will Paul be least in the kingdom?

 

[Biblelogic01]

Paul taught against physical circumcision and said it was nothing. Circumcision wasn't a least commandment of the law; it was a foundational commandment. Disobeying it cut one off from Israel and GOD. Will Paul be least in the kingdom?

I don't recall Jesus ever teaching on circumcission, so your question and bringing it up would be invalid to KohenMatt's statement. The only time Jesus, and circumcission are used, are when it states He was circumcised 8 days after birth. So again, bringing up circumcission on the statement makes no sense.

 

[KohenMatt]

Paul taught against physical circumcision and said it was nothing. Circumcision wasn't a least commandment of the law; it was a foundational commandment. Disobeying it cut one off from Israel and GOD. Will Paul be least in the kingdom?

No, because Paul kept the Law and taught others to do so. He taught against circumcision as a means of improving status before God.

 

[PeterJens]

God gave standards

1. God gave a standard (perfection)
2. No man can live up to that standard, nor will they until the ressurection
3. Every man should strive in the power of God to seek to live a life which is holy and set apart. But not get so proud he thinks he has lived those standards.

You have created an absolute. "No man can live up to that standard, nor will they until the ressurection"

The problem is we do not know this. Paul argues we cannot judge anyone or say they have achieved this. In a sense the apostles are saying when you walk in love flowing from your heart you obey the commands, you live righteously, you are pure, you overcome, so the idea of arriving or not arriving is irrelevant, you are in the kingdom.

Many may have achieved this reality, but so what? What you are saying by your faith absolute, you are condemning those who want to encourage righteousness, who say love needs to grow and work out in your soul. You are claiming this position is preaching salvation by works, such people are legalists and therefore hypocrites and evil, because they are hiding sin, and claiming to be pure. But if you hold to this, you have to identify the sin or else you are a false accuser.

By taking this position you are standing in judgement over Gods people. You are condemning the very people who are believing Jesus's and apostles words.

Understand how we are transformed is a mystery, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit. No one is claiming we are the judge of purity or holiness, no we are saying it is our life blood, it is the thing we want to see in the world, Gods Kingdom in the heart of man.

People need to hear they are valuable, there acts of righteousness are understood and valued and rewarded. Jesus talks about reward, and I had wondered why, but now I understand.

As a christian you can become a worker of condemnation of the righteous, pointing out failures that do not actually exist, loading a burden on people that they will never achieve and saying but this is our fate, there is no hope until the final zapping in some mysterious way and the limitations of licentiousness or the flesh are removed.

My goal is to walk, and pick myself up when I fail. It is not that I am perfect, but I am being transformed as I walk, and I get better the more I walk and further I go. My walk is perfect because Jesus has made it so, though it has blemishes, he chooses to not see them and encourage the good, burning away the dross. How can we progress from sinner to saint otherwise?

 

[PeterJens]

Until then, We have to deal with it, fight the licentious, but also fight the legalist, Who wants the world to think sin is ok. As long as it is the sin I am doing, But these rules over here, These are no nos (and they all have different standard of what ok sins are and what no no sins are.

The argument put forward here is unclear. A legalist is someone who says this set of rules defines you being acceptable or rejected, normally seen as salvation or damnation.

Jesus's concept is a child of the Kingdom lives righteously because that is the right way to live. It demonstrates how you have sorted out internal conflicts, resolved hurts, joys and sadnesses, and live a balanced caring upright life.
Good works are the sign of victory and the overflow of these peoples hearts. It is not a statement of we have arrived, look how good we are, it is life is hard, sin is bitter and destructive, but Jesus and love really work.

If the fruit of Jesus in your life is not in the end a righteous life, what are you? I am not saying this is arrived at quickly, it can take many, many years, but it is very real.

How on earth anyone can take this model and say people such as these believe sin is ok, are just slandering Gods people.

"As long as it is the sin I am doing, But these rules over here, These are no nos (and they all have different standard of what ok sins are and what no no sins are."

This sentence appears to be saying the rules are different to what they should be, and the sin I have is ok.
Now this is a personal accusation of me sinning, and of being deceptive, ie lying.

Fine. Tell me my sin and how I am lying? If you cannot, then you are deceived and created an argument in your head that bears no relation to reality or me, or this discussion. Understand what you are accusing your fellow believers of being and doing without cause.

Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul taught against physical circumcision and said it was nothing. Circumcision wasn't a least commandment of the law; it was a foundational commandment. Disobeying it cut one off from Israel and GOD. Will Paul be least in the kingdom?

No, because Paul kept the Law and taught others to do so. He taught against circumcision as a means of improving status before God.

But I just pointed out that Paul taught against keeping the law of circumcision. Therefore he taught against keeping a law of Moses. A non-trivial commandment. Denying this fact won't make it go away.