The Law Debacle Resolved

[Least]

This seems to be where all this controversy began. I haven't seen this really defined as of yet. What say all?



Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

It's a good post Shoshanna, and has some really good questions to consider. The original poster, unfortunately can't respond to it.

I gathered some verses from throughout the bible that show that mercy instead of sacrifice is what God has always desired.

Originally Posted by just-me

This is a type of quiz just for the sake of "investigation edification."
We all know love is the fulfilling of the law of God.

There are three other things in God's law, in addition to the love commandments, that Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees that they missed due to their self righteous smug attitude. Because of missing those things, this was one thing of several that Jesus called them out on, identifying them as hypocrites. (pretenders)

What are those 3 things that Jesus defined (scripture quoting Jesus), and where can we find them in the Old Covenant law that God gave to Israel via Moses?

Spiritual understanding is necessary, and there is more than one way to approach the true answer on this matter.

Please do your best not to derail or cause conflict. I present this strictly for edification sake.
Let us converse in a respectful and peaceful manner as our Almighty God, through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ would have us to do.

May God bless us with further understanding of each other, and of God's holy word, as His truth impacts us to the very core of our heart, soul, and mind.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

A note: I love it when Jesus says, "go ye and learn what that meaneth." He wants us to seek out everything with HIM, and seeking to understand "what that meaneth," is part of that every believers walk. I studied something out not too long ago along those lines...I can say that it's a very worthwhile topic for anyone to look into for themselves.

Jeremiah 22:3 Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

I was reading Acts ch. 7 yesterday, and what struck me about it is what Stephen said just before he was stoned to death.

If you have a few minutes, read the chapter. It's very insightful and shows the difference between tithing mint, anise and cumin and neglecting the weightier matters of the law. Even to the death of Christ, (as he explains in the chapter.) and it carries on to Stephen himself being stoned.

Stephen divides it out then says this.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Even though outwardly, they appeared to be doing so...

I can't answer for the person who posted the original question, but the response was a good opportunity for me to take a look at these passages again.

I'm not sure how the original message led to any bickering or fighting...it was a call to search out a valid subject.

 

[PeterJens]

One simple problem with ideas, they do not exist without a context. A few sentences can mean something very different if the context is seen differently. It is not unreasonable that a short statement could be taken another way than the writer intended and it be legitimate.

Reflection of ideas is important. Two things happen. The writer looks at what is responded and realises there has been a miss-understanding or the communication is actually missing something that was assumed and not padded out.

Take a concept of telling a patient they will die soon, or keeping it hidden, to save stress. One model says people survive on an optimistic outlook and avoid worst outcomes, so bad outcomes should be hidden. Another say we need to come to terms with reality, and from that frame of reference sort things out. With the truth you can choose how to react, without the truth you do not know if everything is just a nice day, or total disaster. That paranoia can create worse stress than knowing the truth and trusting people. Some doctors do not believe this, and get very angry when people are told real diagnoses. Sometimes this is true because the situation does not warrant such conversations, because it is very obvious.

To put it simply it takes time. So we need to practice our love and patience, not jumping too quickly to conclusions and asking for clarity. Some on CC are truly insane, so you are never going to get anywhere. Many appear straight down the line with personal variations of what they emphasis. I am sure we can learn a lot from each other simply because this is such a diverse talkative community and no one has it all under their hat. I know I have not.

I am not talking down to anyone, I just know sometimes my approach looking back was wrong once I understood who they were and how they expressed themselves. It is just difficult to know without this two way street. It helps therefore not to box people or think people are "evil" "deceptive" "confusing" because most times it is just the wrong buttons pressed and old conversations appearing to be like current conversations, when the people are actually quite different. It makes one quite humble when this happens....

 

[JGIG]

And where are the sins of the believer in Christ according to the Scriptures?

-JGIG

Repented and confessed of sins are cast away never to be used/imputed on us again, but those two words repented and confessed are the key.

Apostle Paul warns Apostle Timothy twice in those two epistles of becoming impure again do to sin, and Paul states in Colossians 1:22-23 that we will be presented blameless and without spot (remission of sins) only if we continue in the faith and not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Now for some context:

13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (from Col. 1)

​

​

Are you believing that you HAVE the forgiveness of sins in Christ? That you HAVE redemption? That you HAVE BEEN delivered from the domain of darkness? Do you believe that what Jesus did was ENOUGH? Or must you add to it?

What are the commands of God? To believe on the One He has sent and to love one another.

We are presented holy and blameless if we BELIEVE in the Work of Christ. You're adding repeated repentance and confession of sins as a requirement for maintaining salvation. There is NO Scriptural support for that notion. And that notion puts the maintaining of salvation in the hands of man, when it is solely in the hands of our High Priest, Christ Jesus, who lives forever to intercede for us.

The other thing that the version of 'salvation' you preach denies is the transformative power of the Life of Christ in the believer. You continue to 'regard everyone from a worldly point of view' instead of viewing believers as the New Creations in Christ that they are.

Then you preach Law at them, stirring up sin in their lives, instead of building them up in who they are in Christ, empowering them to overcome sin in their lives! (Rom. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

My prayer is that you would cease mixing the Old with the New and recognize that Christ saves us completely, not because of what we do or do not do, but because of what He has done, and by His Work in and through us, His Fruit is produced, against which there is no Law (see Gal. 5).

The Scriptures are clear.

-JGIG

 

[KennethC]

22yet He has now reconciled(Our position as believers) you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present(our experiential sanctification as believers) you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Forever saved in our position IN Christ, but some believers have moved away from the HOPE(eternally secure) of the Gospel. and will NOT be presented blameless, they will have SHAME before the judgement seat of Christ.

New American Standard Bible
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

Many believers have lost hope in the Gospel, and do not have confidence in their salvation.........they think it is possible to lose salvation.

They are still saved, but they will experience shame from moving away from the security Christ offers them. They will not be presented holy and blameless. They will be saved as if through fire, because all their human good(EVIL) will be burned up.

It will be the same for the believer that took grace as a license to sin........saved, but as if through fire.

If that is what you believe you can run with it all you like, but this is not how the scriptures in the original Greek are stated as they are speaking on eternal life. Apostle Paul more then once says those that fall away will be cut off (Romans 11:22), and James says their soul will not be saved unless they return to the Lord (James 5:19-20).

James also says it is possible to fall back into condemnation (James 5:12), and Hebrews 10:39 shows some will fall back to perdition.

 

[KennethC]

Now for some context:

13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. (from Col. 1)

​

​

Are you believing that you HAVE the forgiveness of sins in Christ? That you HAVE redemption? That you HAVE BEEN delivered from the domain of darkness? Do you believe that what Jesus did was ENOUGH? Or must you add to it?

What are the commands of God? To believe on the One He has sent and to love one another.

We are presented holy and blameless if we BELIEVE in the Work of Christ. You're adding repeated repentance and confession of sins as a requirement for maintaining salvation. There is NO Scriptural support for that notion. And that notion puts the maintaining of salvation in the hands of man, when it is solely in the hands of our High Priest, Christ Jesus, who lives forever to intercede for us.

The other thing that the version of 'salvation' you preach denies is the transformative power of the Life of Christ in the believer. You continue to 'regard everyone from a worldly point of view' instead of viewing believers as the New Creations in Christ that they are.

Then you preach Law at them, stirring up sin in their lives, instead of building them up in who they are in Christ, empowering them to overcome sin in their lives! (Rom. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

My prayer is that you would cease mixing the Old with the New and recognize that Christ saves us completely, not because of what we do or do not do, but because of what He has done, and by His Work in and through us, His Fruit is produced, against which there is no Law (see Gal. 5).

The Scriptures are clear.

-JGIG

Luke 17 and 1 John 1-2..............

 

[KennethC]

Luke 17 and 1 John 1-2..............

Also again there is a difference in the written ordinances of the Mosaic law and the Perfect law of liberty in Christ.

You also JGIG mentioned the fruit of the Spirit and against such that walk by the Spirit there is not law, and that is because the fruit of the Spirit will not lead one to transgress the law.

In which the bible says that the law still exists to those who transgress it !!!

Apostle Paul warned believers of continuing in sinful ways in the bible, so why do you figure it is wrong to do the same ???

Love does not leave a person walking improperly in the faith !!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Also again there is a difference in the written ordinances of the Mosaic law and the Perfect law of liberty in Christ.

You also JGIG mentioned the fruit of the Spirit and against such that walk by the Spirit there is not law, and that is because the fruit of the Spirit will not lead one to transgress the law.

In which the bible says that the law still exists to those who transgress it !!!

Apostle Paul warned believers of continuing in sinful ways in the bible, so why do you figure it is wrong to do the same ???

Love does not leave a person walking improperly in the faith !!!

You really are an expert at twisting scripture. There is no law against the fruit of the spirit turns into the fruit of the spirit won't lead one to transgress the law.

 

[crossnote]

Yes and these scriptures do not go against anything I have said because look at the parts I highlighted.

We no longer walk as we use to walk but instead we walk by the fruit of the Holy Spirit, which that fruit will not lead one to transgress but establish and uphold the commandments. Apostle Paul shows this in both Romans 3:31 and Romans 13:9-11.

We died to the law because we walk by the Spirit now and not by the flesh, for walking by the Spirit to such there is no law (Galatians 5:23) !!!

This is because the fruit of the Spirit will lead a person to transgression !!!

You are totally mixedup and contentious and I am putting you on ignore.
WE don't walk by the FRUIT of the Spirit, instead we walk by the Spirit..no wonder your so called good works are leading you and not God's Spirit.
Good bye and I pray God opens your eyes.

 

[oldthennew]

here is a big KEY,

those that BEAR the FRUIT of the SPirit, (the scripture says, 'against such, there is no LAW'))
because,
if you are ALWAYS walking in the Spirit, you are NOT transgressing the LAW -
BUT,
there is only ONE that has been recorded, (for us hard heads) of WALKING IN THE SPIRIT 100% of the time,
so,
the point is
IF you are not walking in the Spirit 100% of the time, say, (90%) well, the question is,
where are YOU during the other 10% of the time?????

YOU ARE WALKING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!!!

so with that Tithe of the Flesh, we need an INTERCESSOR!!!

 

[crossnote]

here is a big KEY,

those that BEAR the FRUIT of the SPirit, (the scripture says, 'against such, there is no LAW'))
because,
if you are ALWAYS walking in the Spirit, you are NOT transgressing the LAW -
BUT,
there is only ONE that has been recorded, (for us hard heads) of WALKING IN THE SPIRIT 100% of the time,
so,
the point is
IF you are not walking in the Spirit 100% of the time, say, (90%) well, the question is,
where are YOU during the other 10% of the time?????

YOU ARE WALKING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH!!!

so with that Tithe of the Flesh, we need an INTERCESSOR!!!

Praise God for Jesus who ever lives to intercede for us

 

[crossnote]

Besides, I gave you a whole wall of scripture. All the scripture, not just one side of it. You should try looking at both sides sometime for yourself.

What side of the wall? After 41 years of Scripture, I know that the devil is clever at quoting Scripture too...out of context.

 

[Kefa54]

The idea of a home-group sounds great. Do you worship with a church body also?

Kefa

There are two options here. Either people see the ideas but refuse to acknowledge the ideas being presented or they are so firmly fixed in their minds, the ideas translate completely with all the attached concepts.

JW's have an equally entranched world view. Mention the words and they have their version of everything. As long as the model is bigger than the conversation, no matter alternatives, their ideas revert back to the original whole. One guy said after coming out after 10 years he just could not believe he believed what he did. It was just subtle remodelling the word so everything had a different slant.

It has taken me 4 years of slow drip feeding love centric words and ideas, to slowly bring people round to Jesus centric and overcoming situations in faith in my house group. So it does not suprise me you have a hard time taking on board obedience as working out grace, because the anti-pharisee mindset is a common idea preached in evangelical circles, which is the enemy, or being religious etc. Until you see Jesus sees the good and avoids judgementalism and simple labels, it is easy to get knocked off balance.

The reason I am here so much is because this all is so important and I did not understand how far off base the culture was. The Lord will not let me rest. But maybe you do not see this and it does not mean that much to you, it is just theological points and not your whole existance.

 

[Kefa54]

Galatians 5

Kefa

 

[RickyZ]

What side of the wall? After 41 years of Scripture, I know that the devil is clever at quoting Scripture too...out of context.

He's also good at twisting and distorting scripture and closing minds so people don't get the whole picture.

I've got 53 years of scripture under my belt. Gotcha beat by 12 years, whatever that means. I've seen babes of one day understand more than many old timers, mainly because many old timers find a trench they are comfortable in and stay there.

Alright, I'm done beating this horse. Again, for the vast majority of us here it's a moot subject anyway!

See you on the next one!

 

[JaumeJ]

Genesis through Revelation inclusive. Look it up.

 

[MarcR]

Gal 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
KJV


As I understand it, this verse informs us the Law has no part in our relationship with God, through faith in Jesus. Continuation under the Law constitutes a lack of reliance on the sufficiency of what Jesus did for us. If we rely on our own obedience, we become responsible for total obedience.

 

[Karraster]

Gal 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
KJV


As I understand it, this verse informs us the Law has no part in our relationship with God, through faith in Jesus. Continuation under the Law constitutes a lack of reliance on the sufficiency of what Jesus did for us. If we rely on our own obedience, we become responsible for total obedience.

..but then Jesus did say "If you love me keep my commandments".

As I understand it, Paul was quoting Torah, correct? Don't look now, but it seems to be misquoted. Now, Paul being thoroughly schooled in Torah, is it possible a translation mistake has happened? I merely ask the question, as it is no small thing to overlook.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Gal 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
KJV

As I understand it, this verse informs us the Law has no part in our relationship with God, through faith in Jesus. Continuation under the Law constitutes a lack of reliance on the sufficiency of what Jesus did for us. If we rely on our own obedience, we become responsible for total obedience.

Well said Marc.

 

[JaumeJ]

Once we are saved by the Blood of His Only Begotten Son, the law has no part of our relationship with God in view of the curse of the law, for it is destroyed, and we are seen as innocent. Yet, we still are taught to confess our sins one to another as we are being perfected by God. We approach our God in a personal relationship from the Blood unto eternity, but while we are yet in the flesh, we will never be Jesus Christ, but we are becoming like Him daily, and the work of perfection is alway sgoing on in each of us until we are with Him. If sin exists to the point we mus confess one to another, it stands to reason when we do not sin we are children of obedience.. So, we are obedient, but we slip up from time to time it seems. Do not believe me, look up what Pau has to say about himself and his wretched problem with his own sin.

Gal 3:10
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
KJV


As I understand it, this verse informs us the Law has no part in our relationship with God, through faith in Jesus. Continuation under the Law constitutes a lack of reliance on the sufficiency of what Jesus did for us. If we rely on our own obedience, we become responsible for total obedience.

 

[gotime]

I don't know if people understand this but I want to make something clear.

I don't believe that keeping the law saves us at all. nor can it, nor was it given for that reason.
All the law does is show what is good and thus reveal what is sinful and low and behold all of us have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

See sin is my problem, not death not the law not anything else but sin. Anything else bad simply comes form sin. So Sin is my problem.

Thus I Don't need a savior who can simply overcome death, I don't need a savior who removes the law. none of those things change the problem which is sin in me.

I need a savior who takes sin out of my life, who gives me strength when I am weak/all the time. Who holds me up when I am falling.

I need a savior who can remove sin from my life only then have I found a savior who can save me. and I find that to be in Jesus.

So then here is the logical outcome of such a savior,

When I used to steal I steal no more because I am free from sin/my problem.

When I used to think evil thoughts I no longer think evil thoughts because I am free from sin/my problem.

SO the one who used to steal broke the commandment thou shalt not steal. but once saved from sin one no longer steals and thus by default is keeping the law. not because they want to be saved no. rather because they are saved from sin/stealing they now no longer steal.

That goes for all 10 commandments. People attack one of them but that one just like the other 9 was showing what was good and spiritual and true. So if Christ has freed you from what is bad and carnal and false then what do you have left? a Commandment keeping Christian. otherwise known as a person who has been saved by Christ from sin/the problem.