The Law Debacle Resolved
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1 Corinthians 3:5-9
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
John 11:38-44
38 So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it.
39 Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus *said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”
44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
In these 2 instances first Paul is saying that even though God gives the seed and the water, He causes things to grow. Just because Paul planted, and Apollos watered, was this actually works of self-righteousnesses? On the other had, if Paul had not planted, and if Apollos had not watered, then there would be no increase. This is a simple precept to comprehend. The reason Paul and Apollos did this was because they wanted the world to glorify God's handiwork, and teach them how God causes all thing to happen by Him. Paul knew every believer must equate God's grace with works of righteousness. This doesn't make the believer self-righteous by his or her own works in Christ.
Notice now John 11:39 with verse 44. Jesus didn't do those things but commanded them to be done. He was asking the people in the near proximity to take the barrier away between Himself and the dead man Lazarus. Then Jesus did the work of raising Lazarus from the dead. Would Jesus have done this if they refused to roll the stone away from the tomb because they classified it as self works? I think not. Then afterwards Jesus commands them to set Lazarus free. If that had not been done Lazarus would have died again.
Point being: Stop the false accusations against people that respond to God's commandments because of their faith just because their faith causes them to react according to God's everlasting grace! What I have read in this thread by those who accuse people that that practice in righteousness living is very sickening to this newcomer!
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
John 11:38-44
38 So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it.
39 Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus *said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”
44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
In these 2 instances first Paul is saying that even though God gives the seed and the water, He causes things to grow. Just because Paul planted, and Apollos watered, was this actually works of self-righteousnesses? On the other had, if Paul had not planted, and if Apollos had not watered, then there would be no increase. This is a simple precept to comprehend. The reason Paul and Apollos did this was because they wanted the world to glorify God's handiwork, and teach them how God causes all thing to happen by Him. Paul knew every believer must equate God's grace with works of righteousness. This doesn't make the believer self-righteous by his or her own works in Christ.
Notice now John 11:39 with verse 44. Jesus didn't do those things but commanded them to be done. He was asking the people in the near proximity to take the barrier away between Himself and the dead man Lazarus. Then Jesus did the work of raising Lazarus from the dead. Would Jesus have done this if they refused to roll the stone away from the tomb because they classified it as self works? I think not. Then afterwards Jesus commands them to set Lazarus free. If that had not been done Lazarus would have died again.
Point being: Stop the false accusations against people that respond to God's commandments because of their faith just because their faith causes them to react according to God's everlasting grace! What I have read in this thread by those who accuse people that that practice in righteousness living is very sickening to this newcomer!
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They're not false accusations. You folks admit that you follow (observe, keep) the law. We merely witness that doing so is trying to establish righteousness by works of law. We are not allowing you to establish the narratives that works of law are faith, or that works of law come from faith, or that faith + works of law is the faith of Christ.
That's disingenuous IMO because there are numerous people here who fixate on the law. The Greek word that is translated as keep/observe/follow means guard. There are certainly people here who seem to spend all of their time guarding the law.
Keep/Observe/Follow
Concerning your other comment, I simply cannot comprehend the way you think.
Keep/Observe/Follow
G5083 τηρέω tereo (tay-reh'-o) v.
1. to guard (from loss or injury)
2. (properly) by keeping the eye upon
1. to guard (from loss or injury)
2. (properly) by keeping the eye upon
Concerning your other comment, I simply cannot comprehend the way you think.
That's okay for now. Maybe we can come together in time. I'm not injured by planting the seed, watering the ground, or rolling away the stone for any Lazarus. I know that if I do those things that Jesus will do what needs to be done by the gift of faith He has given me.
Thanks for your input even though we are not on the same page yet.
Hopefully, by the grace of God, we can get to a point of agreement. Flexibility and humility are necessary for that to happen. IMO we should never be on the war path against each other. That's certainly not grace, even though you endorse grace. So, as you said, "I simply cannot comprehend the way you think." Same here.
Thanks for your input even though we are not on the same page yet.
Hopefully, by the grace of God, we can get to a point of agreement. Flexibility and humility are necessary for that to happen. IMO we should never be on the war path against each other. That's certainly not grace, even though you endorse grace. So, as you said, "I simply cannot comprehend the way you think." Same here.
L
Really good study Shoshanna!
I saw the account that you shared about Lazarus in a whole new light. Isn't that what fellowship of believers should accomplish?
Paul and Apollos operated where the division between flesh and spirit took place, and even the works that they did, (and they were works,) came in along those same lines. With Christ being the head who gives the seed of the word, and the water of the word, and causes the increase.
Rightly dividing has nothing to do with ignoring anything that God ever said. And every example preserved in HIS word is and will always be living.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
I saw the account that you shared about Lazarus in a whole new light. Isn't that what fellowship of believers should accomplish?
Paul and Apollos operated where the division between flesh and spirit took place, and even the works that they did, (and they were works,) came in along those same lines. With Christ being the head who gives the seed of the word, and the water of the word, and causes the increase.
Rightly dividing has nothing to do with ignoring anything that God ever said. And every example preserved in HIS word is and will always be living.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
That's okay for now. Maybe we can come together in time. I'm not injured by planting the seed, watering the ground, or rolling away the stone for any Lazarus. I know that if I do those things that Jesus will do what needs to be done by the gift of faith He has given me.
Thanks for your input even though we are not on the same page yet. Hopefully, by the grace of God, we can get to a point of agreement. Flexibility and humility are necessary for that to happen. IMO we should never be on the war path against each other. That's certainly not grace, even though you endorse grace. So, as you said, "I simply cannot comprehend the way you think." Same here.
Thanks for your input even though we are not on the same page yet.
Hopefully, by the grace of God, we can get to a point of agreement. Flexibility and humility are necessary for that to happen. IMO we should never be on the war path against each other. That's certainly not grace, even though you endorse grace. So, as you said, "I simply cannot comprehend the way you think." Same here.
No one of those here believing that we are converted into children of obedience believes anything other. Where are you getting these ideas about us, all of us? There is no salvation without having had the Father lead us, each one, to Jesus Christ, and this only happens after having received the gift of faith. Faith leads to grace, or as Paul writes, fiath accesses grace.
Just as in the parable of the talents, when we receive the gift of faith, we must shine, one way or another. We cannot sit around saying, Hello I am saved, and that is it. Faith without works is dead.
Now Kenneth has maintained that we abey the law according to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. We are told to follw the example of Jesus- He has asked us to learn of Him, and that is an amazing and great invitation.
People who do not learn of Jesus Christ will always struggle with being obedient, obeying God, and understanding the great light hined on the Law by Jesus Christ. How can they when they thing grace, accessed by faith, is the only thing God expects of us.
If faith leads to good works, and it accesses grace,, some good works will be in the interim. I can say this, faith will not lead to disobedience.
Frankly, I sometimes, but not of all, believe many of these grace only folks believe exactly as do I, but they are so caught up in the fear of the law without Jesus Christ, that they have made themselves impervious to understanding.
God bless all in Jesus Crist, and other soo, ame.
Just as in the parable of the talents, when we receive the gift of faith, we must shine, one way or another. We cannot sit around saying, Hello I am saved, and that is it. Faith without works is dead.
Now Kenneth has maintained that we abey the law according to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. We are told to follw the example of Jesus- He has asked us to learn of Him, and that is an amazing and great invitation.
People who do not learn of Jesus Christ will always struggle with being obedient, obeying God, and understanding the great light hined on the Law by Jesus Christ. How can they when they thing grace, accessed by faith, is the only thing God expects of us.
If faith leads to good works, and it accesses grace,, some good works will be in the interim. I can say this, faith will not lead to disobedience.
Frankly, I sometimes, but not of all, believe many of these grace only folks believe exactly as do I, but they are so caught up in the fear of the law without Jesus Christ, that they have made themselves impervious to understanding.
God bless all in Jesus Crist, and other soo, ame.
K
It isn't the works. It is the source of the works The Spirit guiding us.
I have been around the WORLD 3 times. I remember where my flesh took me before I knew Christ.
Anything and everything good, that comes out of me is because of Christ in my life and the council of the Holly Spirit.
The Holly Spirit in my life changes "have to work", to "want to work"
Kefa
I have been around the WORLD 3 times. I remember where my flesh took me before I knew Christ.
Anything and everything good, that comes out of me is because of Christ in my life and the council of the Holly Spirit.
The Holly Spirit in my life changes "have to work", to "want to work"
Kefa
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Don't act coy with me, you know well the accusations coming from various here in the thread saying if we do good works we are trying to earn our salvation. When ever any of us say works we refer to good works, I hope you do not think I refer to evil works? And most times we are accused of this "earning our salvation," so yes, accused of doing good works.....this is not directly from the Word, although Jesus was accused of doing evil when He did good works, but it is derived from the posts of some here....
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